Can singapore hold its own?

[crusader91]

The RSAF now may have an advantage over all SEA forces including the aussies[only for now].
The only thing that the SAF should worry is the land that they have.
If not now i can bet in 2015 or something the MAF or most probaly the TNI will purchased a strong missle[not nclear] that can devestate the city of singapore.
Whats the use of having tones of forces but being cramped at one place.
At the end of the day the land will play a big role in war.
For example if singapore attack the MAF with multiple bombing the MAF can easily hid in the jungle and only defence the major cities like johor and KL with lots of SAMS and JERNAS and tons more of anti-air missles.
As for singapore the MAF can easily strike from JOHOR with artilery and astros.
THe SU-30 MKM that they just purchased can unleashed the KH-59 ME from JOhor with quite a far range.
So if i was the SAF i would strike hard first before being attacked

Singapore will not attack unless other nations attack first. The one who start the war first shall have sanctions by un and singapore is a delicate city,almost every building is a high rise. Prepare to listen to international outcry if your so called missiles even destroy an apartment building which is impossible to avoid because every flat that is destroyed is a massacre.Aim your missiles with care as there are many foreigners here which is about 1/8 of the population....
Thus, the only way maf can invade signapore properly is to fight their way through singapore urban environment with mostly infantry but expect heavy casualties for these few hectares of land with total defence.

 

[Chino]

It is not exactly true that Singapore - or any nation for that matter - will not attack unless attacked first.

If Malaysia cuts off our water and deploy her forces in an aggressive manner, I don't think Singapore will wait till MAF is crossing the Straits of Johore or our water run out before we start shooting.

If you read an entire book about any conflict, you will see that in most conflicts a lot of diplomacy and other avenues were exhausted before one side decides to start shooting.

If 2 countires are set on the path of conflict - for example recently Malaysia and Indonesia got into a scrap over some islands - who's right and who's wrong anyway? You'll need a long court process to determine that one.

UN will just try and stop the conflict and if one side is clearly aggressive, then sanctions may be applied to that side.

 

[crusader91]

It is not exactly true that Singapore - or any nation for that matter - will not attack unless attacked first.

If Malaysia cuts off our water and deploy her forces in an aggressive manner, I don't think Singapore will wait till MAF is crossing the Straits of Johore or our water run out before we start shooting.

If you read an entire book about any conflict, you will see that in most conflicts a lot of diplomacy and other avenues were exhausted before one side decides to start shooting.

If 2 countires are set on the path of conflict - for example recently Malaysia and Indonesia got into a scrap over some islands - who's right and who's wrong anyway? You'll need a long court process to determine that one.

UN will just try and stop the conflict and if one side is clearly aggressive, then sanctions may be applied to that side.

I am aware about the water issue but they will surely know the consequences more or less if they decided to cut the water supply and the attacking first is to achieve complete surprise so that we can knock out their planes and let our groung force pass easily.

 

[cm07]

Regarding our nation's water supply, the agreements will run out in 2011 and 2016 respectively. I can be more than confident to say that we can be 100% independant by 2012 at the latest. More likely is we will be 100% independant by 2010. Malaysia's attempt to cut off the water supply will become a moot point anyway.

Paskal's points:

Malaysia's first strike attempts - our E2s are watching every moment. We will be even more vigilant once our CAEW comes into play. We will have even more time to prepare against a sudden strike by the MAF.

Artillery unit deployments - pretty sure we just need to email digital pictures of them enmassed and pointing south with live ammunition to the UN/USA whoever cares before they can fire the first shot is guilt enough.

The issue of ballistic missiles owned by our neighbours - what they have, the SAF will and definitely try to have more, have better and have counterability.

 

[LazerLordz]

Our surveillance certainly extends far away from MY. Then again, all this war talk is getting tiring.

Look at the geopolitical realities today. ASEAN is more vulnerable than before, and the relevance of each member state will be threatened if we do not look beyond our petty differences.

Two more weeks and we will be signing a Charter that binds each member state legally to each other under one regional organisation at last.

Procurement wise, it is interesting and vital to note that each member state seems to be focusing on similar, yet different areas of their armed forces capability. Shall I call it a loose network of defence forces, when put together, may complement each other with key advantages in military and non-military abilities held by some nations in different areas to form a cohesive ASEAN security picture.

 

[paskal]

Regarding our nation's water supply, the agreements will run out in 2011 and 2016 respectively. I can be more than confident to say that we can be 100% independant by 2012 at the latest. More likely is we will be 100% independant by 2010. Malaysia's attempt to cut off the water supply will become a moot point anyway.

Paskal's points:

Malaysia's first strike attempts - our E2s are watching every moment. We will be even more vigilant once our CAEW comes into play. We will have even more time to prepare against a sudden strike by the MAF.

Artillery unit deployments - pretty sure we just need to email digital pictures of them enmassed and pointing south with live ammunition to the UN/USA whoever cares before they can fire the first shot is guilt enough.

The issue of ballistic missiles owned by our neighbours - what they have, the SAF will and definitely try to have more, have better and have counterability.

I can imgine if the SAF strike first which side will the UN be at...logically malaysia!

About the strike i was just pointing out if it was a sudden attack the RSAF wont even be ready to deploy the CAEW or any other fighter jets to counter the come in fighters.

Whats the use of the SAF still trying to outnumber the opposing force when it has to little land to defend!
Let the SAF attack it wont hurt much but try the opposing force attack at singapore what will happen?

Logically if it was a sudden attack would u even see the CAEW patrolling the singapore skies.
I heard that there based in austarlia.

With all due respect please dont get me wrong im just listing the possibilities of any forces striking before the SAF realise its coming!

 

[crusader91]

I can imgine if the SAF strike first which side will the UN be at...logically malaysia!

About the strike i was just pointing out if it was a sudden attack the RSAF wont even be ready to deploy the CAEW or any other fighter jets to counter the come in fighters.

Whats the use of the SAF still trying to outnumber the opposing force when it has to little land to defend!
Let the SAF attack it wont hurt much but try the opposing force attack at singapore what will happen?

Logically if it was a sudden attack would u even see the CAEW patrolling the singapore skies.
I heard that there based in austarlia.

With all due respect please dont get me wrong im just listing the possibilities of any forces striking before the SAF realise its coming!

I see awacs plane flying near my house regularly where malaysia is visible....
I think our soldiers have a higher rate of survivability than the malaysian counterpart with all the latest gadgets and outnumbering you may even increase our chances of success as there are more reinforcements.If we can even let you attack us by surprise, our expenditure is useless and i am sure that there is a routine patrol and precautionary measures that allow us a chance to hit back.

 

[gary1910]

Firstly, our E-2Cs AEWs are based in SG , never elsewhere.

So where you hear that our CAEW will be stationed elsewhere?
Another one of your assumption?

The point of having AEW is to prevent sneak attack, there is no point of having them stationed elsewhere.

And why we have 4 E-2Cs Hawkeye, so to have at least one E-2C providing 24 hrs surveillance during tension.( E-2C has about 6 hrs endurance)

Not only that, I see our Fokker 50 MPA patrolling all the time just like the E-2Cs.

And our new CAEW will have 9 hrs endurance, so a sneak air strike is even more remote especailly with better capability than our old E-2C, in fact one report from AWST speculated that we have already recieved the first G550 CAEW.

( AWST 1st Oct 2007, article: Silent Partner)

 

[searchfun]

I guess in any nation, there is always intelligence monitor each other force movement.
Any large troop movement with present technology it can not be missed. Massive pre-empt strike is unlikely without pick up by S1 unless they choose to ignore.

 

[cm07]

I can imgine if the SAF strike first which side will the UN be at...logically malaysia!

About the strike i was just pointing out if it was a sudden attack the RSAF wont even be ready to deploy the CAEW or any other fighter jets to counter the come in fighters.

Whats the use of the SAF still trying to outnumber the opposing force when it has to little land to defend!
Let the SAF attack it wont hurt much but try the opposing force attack at singapore what will happen?

Logically if it was a sudden attack would u even see the CAEW patrolling the singapore skies.
I heard that there based in austarlia.

With all due respect please dont get me wrong im just listing the possibilities of any forces striking before the SAF realise its coming!

... You are really badly disinformed and have really odd ideas in your head. You cite IMpossibilities and call them hypothetical scenarios.

Rather than waste my breath, here's what i want to say in defense.

Combat planes flying from North Malaysia to South Malaysia will take more than 5 minutes.

What we need for war will ALWAYS be based in my country.

My country's "little" spot of land packs more military sting and economic value than..nevermind.

 

[paskal]

Firstly, our E-2Cs AEWs are based in SG , never elsewhere.

So where you hear that our CAEW will be stationed elsewhere?
Another one of your assumption?

The point of having AEW is to prevent sneak attack, there is no point of having them stationed elsewhere.

And why we have 4 E-2Cs Hawkeye, so to have at least one E-2C providing 24 hrs surveillance during tension.( E-2C has about 6 hrs endurance)

Not only that, I see our Fokker 50 MPA patrolling all the time just like the E-2Cs.

And our new CAEW will have 9 hrs endurance, so a sneak air strike is even more remote especailly with better capability than our old E-2C, in fact one report from AWST speculated that we have already recieved the first G550 CAEW.

( AWST 1st Oct 2007, article: Silent Partner)

I dont think you got me right.
If there is no tension what will happen?
Tell me if its a sudden attack would you even see the E-2c flying day and night?
Im listing the possibilities of the SAF getting hit without knowing whats coming.

 

[crusader91]

I dont think you got me right.
If there is no tension what will happen?
Tell me if its a sudden attack would you even see the E-2c flying day and night?
Im listing the possibilities of the SAF getting hit without knowing whats coming.

Even there is patrolling in peace time............
So how swift the maf is???

 

[gary1910]

I dont think you got me right.
If there is no tension what will happen?
Tell me if its a sudden attack would you even see the E-2c flying day and night?
Im listing the possibilities of the SAF getting hit without knowing whats coming.

There are still plenty of ground based radars around in SG , more than MY in fact, perhaps the response time is lower, depending on the flight path of enemy strike a/c.

For example MY don't have any AEW, are you implying that MY is totally blind in term of airstrike? And can be strike at any time without response?

Of course not, interceptors and SAM will be waiting, because MY has ground based radars too.

Having AEW has advantage in term of better detection so to give more warning time to response especially against low flying a/c, without one flyiing above does not means that all the ground based radars are useless!!!

2ndly, how do one know when there will be no AEW in the sky when SG always has some a/c patrolling?

The problem is no one know,and the future even harder when the CAEW has a endurance of 9hrs, 3 of them alone will give more than 24hrs surveillence.

 

[yeahwhat]

Hi, I'm new here and I just was reading the replies in this topic. I found it strange that initially some people were hypothesizing about China attacking Singapore. I think that this is as unlikely as Australia having an armed conflict with us(not US). Not only the distance between China and Singapore is far, there is also no conflict of interests between the two countries. And the fact that over 70 percent of Singaporeans are ethnic Chinese does not do much to encourage conflict.

The more possible threats come from countries nearer to Singapore and luckily the thread later on managed to shift the focus to the correct countries.

And while much focus has been made on the RSAF, I would like to point out that the Army is not that bad. The common conception that conscript soldiers are unable to withstand hardship within the Army is probably flawed. There was a post in another thread that claims Singapore soldiers consisting of lawyers and accountants would be unable to walk for 6 hours and reach the objective to fight at 2am. Most Singaporeans males having gone through NS will know that this is bull and scoff at such a suggestion. And I scoff at it. Being a fulltime national servicemen(conscript) in the infantry, I have gone for many exercises requiring me to carry 20kg loads and walk from 12 to 6am for an attack. But I am not even a lawyer or accountant. I am a 19 year-old who have just taken his A levels a year ago and when my military service ends, I will continue my studies in university. So before anyone says we conscripts are useless and weak, please substantiate.

 

[paskal]

There are still plenty of ground based radars around in SG , more than MY in fact, perhaps the response time is lower, depending on the flight path of enemy strike a/c.

For example MY don't have any AEW, are you implying that MY is totally blind in term of airstrike? And can be strike at any time without response?

Of course not, interceptors and SAM will be waiting, because MY has ground based radars too.

Having AEW has advantage in term of better detection so to give more warning time to response especially against low flying a/c, without one flyiing above does not means that all the ground based radars are useless!!!

2ndly, how do one know when there will be no AEW in the sky when SG always has some a/c patrolling?

The problem is no one know,and the future even harder when the CAEW has a endurance of 9hrs, 3 of them alone will give more than 24hrs surveillence.

No disrespect dude but you realy really got me wrong:
Did i even said that it should be malaysia i never even said close to it!

One more time im repeating im just listing the possibilities of any country that have the capable of striking singapore without she realising it.
One more issue how do you even now that singapore has more ground based radar than MY.
As what i see My has more air base than singapore.And surely at every airbase they should at least be 1 radar.

I personally think any low flying a/c have more chance of getting hit then high flying ones.
Especially when the SAF have modofied I-Hawk that are good at taking out low flying jets or helicopters.

Can you please show me any prove that the SAF have received the Gurlstream CAEW.It can come handy to me if the prove is there.Im in an assignment given by my upper to see the most cappable country in SEA that is most capable of striking hard at MY in 5 years to come.So feel free to show ur options like the new JSOW[joint stand off weapon] and JDAM that Sg might get from the US.
Im listing the most capable threat is Indonesia as they will purchased around 74 su-30 mkk in 2007-2013[vietnam modified version if not mistaken] that is equipped with KH-59 ME and because they are developping their own missles.

Second of course SG because of the dispute of the small Pedra Branca.
When they have 60+ f-16 and 24 f-15 still in order.Im still quite not sure will they get the JSOW and JDAM from the US.Any info feel free to share.

Peace

 

[gary1910]

No disrespect dude but you realy really got me wrong:
Did i even said that it should be malaysia i never even said close to it!

One more time im repeating im just listing the possibilities of any country that have the capable of striking singapore without she realising it.
One more issue how do you even now that singapore has more ground based radar than MY.
As what i see My has more air base than singapore.And surely at every airbase they should at least be 1 radar.

I personally think any low flying a/c have more chance of getting hit then high flying ones.
Especially when the SAF have modofied I-Hawk that are good at taking out low flying jets or helicopters.

SG has 5 air bases and MY has 6, but I am not talking about short range radar for SAM or air control , I am talking about LONG RANGE Air Defence RADAR.

SG has 4 Thomson-CSF LORADS II and unknown number of mobile LR AD radar FPS-117( range up to 400km), these LR radar give us more time to response to enemy a/c.

MY if I am not wrong, does not have any modern LR AD radar, just order 2 TRML-3D air defense radars to be delivered by 2008.

Next is , low flying a/c is to avoid radar detection, not SAM. So if such a/c was detected later, i.e. the lesser time for the interceptors to response.

Can you please show me any prove that the SAF have received the Gurlstream CAEW.It can come handy to me if the prove is there.Im in an assignment given by my upper to see the most cappable country in SEA that is most capable of striking hard at MY in 5 years to come.So feel free to show ur options like the new JSOW[joint stand off weapon] and JDAM that Sg might get from the US.
Im listing the most capable threat is Indonesia as they will purchased around 74 su-30 mkk in 2007-2013[vietnam modified version if not mistaken] that is equipped with KH-59 ME and because they are developping their own missles.

Second of course SG because of the dispute of the small Pedra Branca.
When they have 60+ f-16 and 24 f-15 still in order.Im still quite not sure will they get the JSOW and JDAM from the US.Any info feel free to share.

Peace

I have already told you which article, do you want me spoon feed you all the time?

You need do some research by reading widely on military stuff.

Ok, let me post the article for you which was first posted by Spidy in MN forum:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff89/spyder-album1/Singapore/PC_AWST-01Oct2007-1.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff89/spyder-album1/Singapore/PC_AWST-01Oct2007-2.jpg

SG purchase of JDAM and JSOW from US:

http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2005/Singapore_05-39.pdf

TNI purchasing 74 su-30 mkk in 2007-2013?

I highly doubt so. because they don't have the money. Do you know that TNI just order only 6 of them this year ( total: 10) and could only buy them by getting a soft loan from Russia, without it they could not afford them?!?

The best estimate is I believe at best up to 2 full sqn of 20 by the end of the next decade.By then RSAF should be getting F-35!!!!

Currently, only airforce that could rival RSAF in SEA is Thailand, they have about 60 F-16A/B and some will be MLU standard. and with new Gripen and AEW, I will say they are 2nd best AF in SEA based on current inventory and confirmed order.

They do have the quantity but not quality as compare to RSAF.

 

[Mr Ignorant]

The Singaporeans on this thread talk about invading other countries, as if they are a Military Superpower in the Region. They justify this sort of "proxy" discussion, on trade and water treaties, where in reality, it is just a small minded approach to a conversation, which should have appraised the Singaporean Order of Battle.

Invading Malaysia is out of the question. After reading this thread for a few weeks, it strikes me that such talk is rubbish at the very least, and fancifully stupid at the most. There is no doubt that one or 2 Singaporeans may be from the Armed Forces, but their thinking belies their optimism. None of them understand the lay of land, and what's more they come across as Armchair Call of Duty PC Gamers, rather than serious forummers they should be.

All this talk about this technology or that gadget and gimmick is the road to nowhere. Little or none of it can be applied in real terms. Singaporeans should ask more about W-H-Y their government is spending all their hard earned taxpayers money on hardware they don't need. But that is beyond all Singaporeans on this threat. Worst of all, they appear to be a colony of beavers, unwavering in their belief of their own unaccountable Politicians. Sometimes I wonder if Burundi is more democratic than Singapore.

It's no wonder some Singaporeans on this thread here sit down and talk of W-A-R when none of them, have ever fired a bullet in anger.

Malaysians know what WAR means. So do all the other neighbours. My fellow Singaporeans, stick to the thread and discuss what your Armed Forces should be, rather than what it needs, or must do.

 

[Mr Ignorant]

Hi, I'm new here and I just was reading the replies in this topic. I found it strange that initially some people were hypothesizing about China attacking Singapore. I think that this is as unlikely as Australia having an armed conflict with us(not US). Not only the distance between China and Singapore is far, there is also no conflict of interests between the two countries. And the fact that over 70 percent of Singaporeans are ethnic Chinese does not do much to encourage conflict.

The more possible threats come from countries nearer to Singapore and luckily the thread later on managed to shift the focus to the correct countries.

And while much focus has been made on the RSAF, I would like to point out that the Army is not that bad. The common conception that conscript soldiers are unable to withstand hardship within the Army is probably flawed. There was a post in another thread that claims Singapore soldiers consisting of lawyers and accountants would be unable to walk for 6 hours and reach the objective to fight at 2am. Most Singaporeans males having gone through NS will know that this is bull and scoff at such a suggestion. And I scoff at it. Being a fulltime national servicemen(conscript) in the infantry, I have gone for many exercises requiring me to carry 20kg loads and walk from 12 to 6am for an attack. But I am not even a lawyer or accountant. I am a 19 year-old who have just taken his A levels a year ago and when my military service ends, I will continue my studies in university. So before anyone says we conscripts are useless and weak, please substantiate.

Yes, most conscripts are weak and stupid. That's why the RSAF spends so much time in basic training.

So you carried a 20kg load and walked. So what? Physically you're rubbish. Try working in a Timber Camp for 6 months deep in the forest or carry 25kg loads everyday for the rest of your life. Maybe, you'll earn respect that way, otherwise I doubt most conscripts like you can withstand conditions in which you're expected to survive.

But hey, being ignorant is easy for everyone. Being informed and demanding is another thing altogether.

 

[Incognito129]

You can fit 30 Singapores in Israel. Alot of you are very ignorant about the geographical limitations of Singapore waging war.

Singapore is 1 city. End of argument.

 

[Transient]

The Singaporeans on this thread talk about invading other countries, as if they are a Military Superpower in the Region. They justify this sort of "proxy" discussion, on trade and water treaties, where in reality, it is just a small minded approach to a conversation, which should have appraised the Singaporean Order of Battle.

Invading Malaysia is out of the question. After reading this thread for a few weeks, it strikes me that such talk is rubbish at the very least, and fancifully stupid at the most. There is no doubt that one or 2 Singaporeans may be from the Armed Forces, but their thinking belies their optimism. None of them understand the lay of land, and what's more they come across as Armchair Call of Duty PC Gamers, rather than serious forummers they should be.

Lots of talk, nothing to back up what you're saying despite the many proof shown earlier about Singapore's capability and its doctrine.

Singaporeans should ask more about W-H-Y their government is spending all their hard earned taxpayers money on hardware they don't need.

To make sure that when the water stops flowing, blood will take its place.

Malaysians know what WAR means.

Which war has Malaysia fought?

Try working in a Timber Camp for 6 months deep in the forest or carry 25kg loads everyday for the rest of your life.

War isn't just about carrying 25kg loads. Many people laugh at Americans troops for being pampered, but how many can take them on? In WW2 and Vietnam America fought with conscripts, and those conscripts faced the harshest environments available. Did they show any less ability to handle the environment? I realise that having less capable equipment and training means the only way you can convince yourself of Malaysia's ability is to deride the quality of Singaporean troops, but reality doesn't work that way. Singaporean troops have shown themselves to be competant while on overseas exercises.

But hey, being ignorant is easy for everyone. Being informed and demanding is another thing altogether.

Speak for yourself.