Pakistan buys Italian SPADA2000

[SABRE]

Pakistan has decided to purchase Italian made SPADA2000 Missiles for Air Defence purposes.

Italian Companies Find Foothold in Pakistani Market

ROME — European missile house MDBA has signed to supply the Pakistan Air Force with the Spada 2000 air defense system, produced by the Italian-controlled part of the firm, MBDA Italia. The signing follows a previous deal by Italy’s Galileo Avionica to sell its Falco UAV to Pakistan.


The two deals have yet to be confirmed by the manufacturers, possibly due to contractual stipulations, even though the Spada signing was reportedly carried out in August and Falco deliveries are well under way.


MBDA Chief Executive Antoine Bouvier declined to comment when asked about the Spada contract at the DSEI show in London last month, although industrial sources confirmed the sale.


The C-130 transportable Spada system, which is used by Italy and Spain, uses a 60-kilometer-range radar and two firing sections, each containing two missile launchers hosting six Aspide 2000 missiles each. The missiles can intercept targets more than 20 kilometers away.


Industrial sources said the Spada system had beaten competition from Raytheon, Diehl BGT and Saab to win the Pakistan contract.


MBDA Italia represents the 25 percent stake held in MBDA by Italy’s Finmeccanica group.


Finmeccanica unit Galileo Avionica has meanwhile completed delivery of one Falco UAV system to Pakistan, with a second system due for delivery and an option on a third. Each system contains four UAVs and a ground control station.


The medium-altitude surveillance UAV, which made its debut flight in 2003, is built to host electro-optic and infrared sensors, as well as radar if required. Pakistan is reportedly taking some sensors from Galileo Avionica as part of the deal and adding some of its own.


As the Falco is deployed by Pakistan, the Italian Air Force’s Predator UAVs, also assembled by Galileo Avionica in Italy under license from General Atomics, are flying across the Pakistan border in Afghanistan and one was used in September to track kidnappers escaping with two captured Italian intelligence agents.


The agents were subsequently freed by U.K. and Italian special forces, although both were wounded in the operation, with one subsequently dying.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3120467&C=europe
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[webmaster]

Yeah, the news about this particular sale came out about two months ago:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...ce_System_for_Pakistan_Air_Force100013326.php

 

[SABRE]

Yeah, the news about this particular sale came out about two months ago:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...ce_System_for_Pakistan_Air_Force100013326.php

Guess I missed on that but the above news is of 22/10/07

 

[rrrtx]

I wonder if the technology will make its way to China. China already has a SAM based on their copy of the Aspide air-to-air missile (http://www.sinodefence.com/army/surfacetoairmissile/ly60.asp) which itself is the basis for the SPADA2000 missile. China and Pakistan's arms industries have a very tight relationship.

Let's see... I'll swap you a SPADA2000 battery for a couple of FC-1 fighters. Do we have a deal?

Another easy opportunity to reverse engineer someone else's technology.

 

[SABRE]

I wonder if the technology will make its way to China. China already has a SAM based on their copy of the Aspide air-to-air missile (http://www.sinodefence.com/army/surfacetoairmissile/ly60.asp) which itself is the basis for the SPADA2000 missile. China and Pakistan's arms industries have a very tight relationship.

Let's see... I'll swap you a SPADA2000 battery for a couple of FC-1 fighters. Do we have a deal?

Another easy opportunity to reverse engineer someone else's technology.

Thats the worse example you can come up with - swaping SPADA2000 for FC-1/JF-17 when Pakistan owns 50% share of the aircraft & will be producing its own JF-17s inside Pakistan. & I don't there is any required to get JF-17s/FC-1 from China in an exchange.

Sometimes I think subjects such as "Arms Control" especially the "verification" part should be made a "must study" from the school times.

 

[rrrtx]

Not trying to come up with the worse possible swap scenario. Could be anything. Could be combat boot shoelaces or mobile field kitchens or something - or cash. That's not the point.

The point is that the tech will end up in China. The broader issue is that China has a long history of "acquiring" defense tech from other countries that ends up in it's own weapons programs. And often is offered for export in direct competition with the original manufacturer's wares.

 

[radiosilence]

The point is that the tech will end up in China. The broader issue is that China has a long history of "acquiring" defense tech from other countries that ends up in it's own weapons programs. And often is offered for export in direct competition with the original manufacturer's wares.

There must have been reasonable assurances that tech from this system will not be transfered to any other country which is why the sale is reportedly a done deal.

 

[rrrtx]

There must have been reasonable assurances that tech from this system will not be transfered to any other country which is why the sale is reportedly a done deal.

Why would Pakistan elect to buy this system given the many other options available? SPADA2000 is not a new system. The Aspide itself is an older missile - it's based on the aging US Sparrow missle. Seems an odd route to take unless there is some other factor influencing Pakistans decision.

 

[radiosilence]

Why would Pakistan elect to buy this system given the many other options available? SPADA2000 is not a new system. The Aspide itself is an older missile - it's based on the aging US Sparrow missle. Seems an odd route to take unless there is some other factor influencing Pakistans decision.

From the article above.

Industrial sources said the Spada system had beaten competition from Raytheon, Diehl BGT and Saab to win the Pakistan contract

 

[Viper7]

What about Crotale NG (next generation), isn't that a viable option, considering that we already are using Crotale-2000/4000 series. Unless ofcourse it is Pakistan Army who has selected this ADS. Pakistan Air Force is the one who operates the Crotales, may it is that PA & PAF are going for different ADS, according to their requirements.

 

[rrrtx]

From the article above.

That assumes there was an objective competition. These choices are often driven by political considerations - political alliances etc.

 

[rrrtx]

What about Crotale NG (next generation), isn't that a viable option, considering that we already are using Crotale-2000/4000 series. Unless ofcourse it is Pakistan Army who has selected this ADS. Pakistan Air Force is the one who operates the Crotales, may it is that PA & PAF are going for different ADS, according to their requirements.

I agree that would make more sense. Interestingly China builds a copy of the Crotale as well so France would have the same potential problem that Italy may face with SPADA.

In truth I think any arms supplier should be careful not to let their tech end up in China whether by direct or indirect means. It won't remain "your" tech for very long.

 

[radiosilence]

That assumes there was an objective competition. These choices are often driven by political considerations - political alliances etc.

Whats is your point? Political considerations are always part of the decision making process for every country when procuring foreign systems. It seems you are more concerned about tech transfer that the company involved.

 

[Viper7]

I agree that would make more sense. Interestingly China builds a copy of the Crotale as well so France would have the same potential problem that Italy may face with SPADA.

In truth I think any arms supplier should be careful not to let their tech end up in China whether by direct or indirect means. It won't remain "your" tech for very long.

Well that has been the case since the second world war. Where America got most of its technology from the Germans. Mind you, the first to build fighter 'jets', were the Germans with the Me-262s.

 

[rrrtx]

Whats is your point? Political considerations are always part of the decision making process for every country when procuring foreign systems. It seems you are more concerned about tech transfer that the company involved.

The point is that it might not be so much of a sale as a tech transfer. If you are Italy is it worth doing? Do you end up losing a sale later because China offers essentially the same thing for a fraction of your price?

 

[rrrtx]

Well that has been the case since the second world war. Where America got most of its technology from the Germans. Mind you, the first to build fighter 'jets', were the Germans with the Me-262s.

Agreed - there are plenty of great examples. My favorite is when the UK made a Rolls Royce jet engine available to the Soviet Union. Which they promptly used to manufacture their MiG-15.

China is particularly brazen about it though. They produce copies that are so obvious that they don't even bother to change cosmetic details that might disguise them as rip-offs.

 

[radiosilence]

The point is that it might not be so much of a sale as a tech transfer. If you are Italy is it worth doing?

This is the article title "Italian Companies Find Foothold in Pakistani Market". So apparently its worth doing for Italy.

Do you end up losing a sale later because China offers essentially the same thing for a fraction of your price?

The US and France to name a few are doing business with Pakistan. There must be some assurances in place which is why they continue to sell to Pakistan.

 

[swerve]

The point is that it might not be so much of a sale as a tech transfer. If you are Italy is it worth doing? Do you end up losing a sale later because China offers essentially the same thing for a fraction of your price?

Spada 2000 is not exactly the latest thing. The Italians might not care too much if it's copied, as long as they get this sale. Ditto Crotale NG.

 

[rrrtx]

Spada 2000 is not exactly the latest thing. The Italians might not care too much if it's copied, as long as they get this sale. Ditto Crotale NG.

Good point. I don't think the US is selling them anything very new.

 

[kato]

I don't think the US is selling them anything very new.

I don't think the US has anything new in that category - they don't really have anything current between Stinger-based and Patriot systems. I-Hawk would be about the only thing on offer in the same category as Spada 2000 - and the same from Diehl BGT actually.