Warfare at High Altitudes

[FutureTank]

.
u still need high-altitude helicopters for transport.

which modern transport helicopter has the highest service-ceiling ???

plz update if possible.

.

Altitude : 12 442 m

Date of flight: 21/06/1972
Pilot: Jean BOULET (France)
Course/place: Aérodrome d'Istres (France)

Rotorcraft:
SA 315 Lama (1 Turboméca Artouste III B, 735 kW)

Source: Fédération Aéronautique Internationale

However, although this helo can accommodate 4 passengers, it is unlikely that it can lift them to much higher then 4,000ft, if that.

The UH-1Ds in Vietnam had to cut the number of passengers in half to fly over 4,000ft mountains.

The ubiquitous Mi-8 can only manage 4,500 m (14,760 ft) service ceiling, but not with its standard load, which is 24 passengers. Of course this is more then double the number the UH-1H could lift, but if it has to lift to ceiling, it is unlikely to to lift more then 4-6 combat troops, which is what Soviet SpetzNaz did in Afghanistan.

The service ceiling attempts to capture the maximum usable altitude of an aircraft. Specifically, it is the density altitude at which flying in a clean configuration, at the best rate of climb airspeed for that altitude and with all engines operating and producing maximum continuous power, will produce a 100 feet per minute climb. Margin to stall at service ceiling is 1.5g. (Wiki)

Absolute ceiling for a Mi-8 is far greater of course at 6000m.

 

[eckherl]

Which Ben?
For the Indians the Scottish mountains would look like nice hills.

Yep - they may be a little disappointed.

 

[FutureTank]

Yep - they may be a little disappointed.

Is that why lots of people used to go to India in the 70s? To get high?

 

[eckherl]

Is that why lots of people used to go to India in the 70s? To get high?

Na - most people get kinda lazy and have the munchies after a few bowls of hashish.

 

[FutureTank]

Na - most people get kinda lazy and have the munchies after a few bowls of hashish.

I wouldn't know
However to stay on the thread, I do believe that Soviets used to lift BMPs to fairly high levels (considering) and used them as a kind of armoured OP. This was mostly because the troops could use engines to keep themselves warm, and felt more safe once dug in under the IFV. I'm not sure high high they were lifted though.
The troops also smoked a lot of hashish as I read.

 

[eckherl]

I wouldn't know
However to stay on the thread, I do believe that Soviets used to lift BMPs to fairly high levels (considering) and used them as a kind of armoured OP. This was mostly because the troops could use engines to keep themselves warm, and felt more safe once dug in under the IFV. I'm not sure high high they were lifted though.
The troops also smoked a lot of hashish as I read.

I wouldn`t know either, I assume that you are referring to Afghanistan. Are you sure that they were BMPs or were they BMDs. I would be a little freaked out during the night time hours.

 

[FutureTank]

I wouldn`t know either, I assume that you are referring to Afghanistan. Are you sure that they were BMPs or were they BMDs. I would be a little freaked out during the night time hours.

Maybe BMDs also, but I read about a BMP on a Russian site, and this was confirmed by another contributor there in a different place but from same unit. It may have been restricted to that unit though. Essentially this is akin to what was done in Vietnam, except that there the OP was usually either temporary, or permanent and complex, including USAF equipment installation.

However, I'm not sure why this can't be done now by NATO?
It may be that NATO could rediscover the value of fortified high ground as was used for centuries in Europe. Several armoured boxes lifted onto dominant heights could easily dominate a large area, particularly if provided with long range turreted weapon. It seems to me that even old M-60 turrets would do since a 105mm HE round wouldn't need to be fired with the same precision as an anti-tank sabot round for example.
I'm curious no one has thought of this until now. These positional area defense sectors could dominate large areas using only an equivalent of a tank company.

 

[FutureTank]

I wouldn`t know either, I assume that you are referring to Afghanistan. Are you sure that they were BMPs or were they BMDs. I would be a little freaked out during the night time hours.

I'd be a lot freaked out, but it would not be much different to doing night security duty.

Actually on second thought it would have to be a crew of at least three shift in such a height domination fortified point.

 

[eckherl]

Maybe BMDs also, but I read about a BMP on a Russian site, and this was confirmed by another contributor there in a different place but from same unit. It may have been restricted to that unit though. Essentially this is akin to what was done in Vietnam, except that there the OP was usually either temporary, or permanent and complex, including USAF equipment installation.

However, I'm not sure why this can't be done now by NATO?
It may be that NATO could rediscover the value of fortified high ground as was used for centuries in Europe. Several armoured boxes lifted onto dominant heights could easily dominate a large area, particularly if provided with long range turreted weapon. It seems to me that even old M-60 turrets would do since a 105mm HE round wouldn't need to be fired with the same precision as an anti-tank sabot round for example.
I'm curious no one has thought of this until now. These positional area defense sectors could dominate large areas using only an equivalent of a tank company.

Or you could do what Russia did on the Sino border, this is a very interesting array of old tank systems that were used. I kinda prefer a more fluid defensive system, this keeps you opponent guessing on your next move and doesn`t give him a whole lot of time to plan something nasty for you.

 

[eckherl]

I'd be a lot freaked out, but it would not be much different to doing night security duty.

Actually on second thought it would have to be a crew of at least three shift in such a height domination fortified point.

Don`t forget your listening posts and rear security personnel either.

 

[FutureTank]

Don`t forget your listening posts and rear security personnel either.

I didn't. There is no need for them.

 

[eckherl]

I didn't. There is no need for them.

In mountain terrian, do you think that electronic devices are that good.

 

[Waylander]

Or you could do what Russia did on the Sino border, this is a very interesting array of old tank systems that were used. I kinda prefer a more fluid defensive system, this keeps you opponent guessing on your next move and doesn`t give him a whole lot of time to plan something nasty for you.

I don't think the russians expect this line of defense to hold in face of an attack.
But it could slow down an enemy attack and makes good observation points.
Time which is much needed to get your mobile units time to maneuver into position.

And with air cover and support by prepositioned artillery in hardened positions such a line of defense is going to kill a fair amount of enemies before being overhelmed (For which I have no doubt will happen if the Chinese do a serious border crossing).

 

[eckherl]

I don't think the russians expect this line of defense to hold in face of an attack.
But it could slow down an enemy attack and makes good observation points.
Time which is much needed to get your mobile units time to maneuver into position.

And with air cover and support by prepositioned artillery in hardened positions such a line of defense is going to kill a fair amount of enemies before being overhelmed (For which I have no doubt will happen if the Chinese do a serious border crossing).

Alot of these positions are no longer even manned and they are rather primative with the latest array of battlefield management devices that are currently in use with Russia. I don`t think that China would even be able to mass troops and material for a attack without the Russians even knowing about it. It is still kind neat though to see some of these old relics still sitting in these positions rusting away, China most likely had the majority of them pre plotted with artillery.

 

[Waylander]

I expect them to throw the reservists and conscripts from this area into these positions as soon as the Chinese start to build up forces on the other side of the border.
Better than to sacrifice ready trained standing units in an attempt to slow down the enemy while you mobilize and and maneuver into position.

For sure they are dead meat but in the end I don't think Stavka has a problem with sacrifizing them...

 

[FutureTank]

A lot of these positions are no longer even manned and they are rather primitive with the latest array of battlefield management devices that are currently in use with Russia. I don`t think that China would even be able to mass troops and material for a attack without the Russians even knowing about it. It is still kind neat though to see some of these old relics still sitting in these positions rusting away, China most likely had the majority of them pre plotted with artillery.

The photos you sent are of emplacements that date from the 60s. Since then the Fortified Regions have changed in organisation and employment. They have a surveillance battalion that includes GSR sub-units, and the tanks are no longer dug-in but operate in a sort of fortified prepared position These are still restricted in access to general public, and I have not seen any images of them.
Removing old positions is quite expensive, and in any case, they provide excellent OPs for border guards because Chinese used to snipe at them, and now the Chinese illegally crossing the border do.

 

[Vindex]

As far as I have seen the equipment of the Indian mountain units seems to be a bit outdated. And they had troubles with the various techniques required to navigate over difficult glaciers. But it might have been just a lowland unit doing some basic mountain training...

 

[FutureTank]

As far as I have seen the equipment of the Indian mountain units seems to be a bit outdated. And they had troubles with the various techniques required to navigate over difficult glaciers. But it might have been just a lowland unit doing some basic mountain training...

Having most up to date equipment in this terrain is not essential to tactics.
Navigation at high altitudes is always a bit tricky I hear. Consider the recent cases of Chilean, Argentinian, NZ and and other troops having mishaps. There is the famous Swiss invasion of Lichtenstein, and numerous cases of Soviet and now NATO troops having navigation problems in Afghanistan. Probably many we never hear about.

 

[funtz]

As far as I have seen the equipment of the Indian mountain units seems to be a bit outdated. And they had troubles with the various techniques required to navigate over difficult glaciers. But it might have been just a lowland unit doing some basic mountain training...

What out dated equipment?

What incident of having trouble navigating the glaciers are you talking about?
Talking about the 80s or the 90s?
Which Glacier?

Lowland unit doing basic mountain training in Glaciers? Thats a call for good old harakiri.(might as well pick up your rifle and take a shot to the head)

 

[Vindex]

Well given that the practically all suitable equipment for mountain warfare has made huge steps in the last ten years or so it is little wonder that the Inidan units are lagging seriously behind. Even western forces like the Alpini and the Gebirgsjaeger have trouble to keep the pace...

From what I have seen the still have rather heavy ropes - an old Kernmantel - but still rather heavy. The crampoons too seemed worn out and old, like their Ice Axes. Thinking a bit more about their stuff it I will be able to come up with more.

Well I saw the training personally and discussed it also with some soldiers because I was trekking by. It was some ten km east of Gaumukh, close to the Shivling. Note that they seemed rather fit and carried a good deal of equipment, even an Anti-tank weapon. Everybody with experience knows just how heavy every cage (kg) is when one has to carry it up and down steep hills at high altitude. They referred to themselves as elite.

They clearly were not very well versed - I have a good deal of experience - but perhaps they got shifted to medium altitude (4000m) just recently and it was one of their first training sessions of their new shift. :

Anyway which anti-tank weapons do the India forces use? It was definatly a soviet RPG version. What I missed where optical sights on their weapons. Given the often huge distances longrange shooting is more than a distinct possibility...