Warfare at High Altitudes

[XaNDeR]

I hope you don't mean the 10th mountain division.
This division is not specialized in mountain warfare they do some of their training at home in some difficult terrain due to the place were their homebase is located.
But they remain a relatively plain normal light infantry division which is not comparable to the specialized mountain units of other countries.

I don't know , I heard that they have a division that is trained on mountain warfare , I guess thats it , tnx for some info.

 

[kato]

Germany has the 23rd Mountain Inf Bde within 10th Armor Division.

23rd Mountain Bde commonly fights in a zone between 1000 and 3000 meters, and is specialized for that. Or at least they hold their exercises at this kind of altitude - example: the last shots of their artillery bat used positions and observers at about 2000m alt, with 200m altitude difference between firing positions and observers.

For Germany, that's high altitude. The more mountaineous areas of Germany usually top out between 1000 and 1500m, with the exception of the Allgäu, which tops out at 2900m. 23rd Mountain Bde is trained and capable of fighting in all these areas, unlike "normal" infantry, and would presumably be able to fight specifically throughout the Alpine mountains.

 

[eckherl]

I don't know , I heard that they have a division that is trained on mountain warfare , I guess thats it , tnx for some info.

Waylander hit it right, we do not have any specialized divisions for high altitude mountain warfare, which is a bummer.

 

[kams]

Waylander hit it right, we do not have any specialized divisions for high altitude mountain warfare, which is a bummer.

Some of your guys train at our HAWS in Kashmir. Infact another such exercise is scheduled in November. This years exercise will include some air-borne elements. High altitude anti-insurgency tactics seems to be the core area of this years exercise.

 

[eckherl]

Some of your guys train at our HAWS in Kashmir. Infact another such exercise is scheduled in November. This years exercise will include some air-borne elements. High altitude anti-insurgency tactics seems to be the core area of this years exercise.

At what elevations are they training at, yes some of the specialized units do recieve mountain training but they are not just dedicated to that type of warfare. Maybe this will change with the style of fighting in Afhganistan that U.S units along with NATO forces are dealing with. I would like to see at least one U.S division dedicated to just this type of fighting.

 

[Waylander]

Sending some soldiers for training to special mountain/arctic warfare schools is, as Eckherl pointed out right, not the same like having a dedicated mountain warfare force.

And special forces of all kind tend to get the training they need including high altitue/mountain warfare.

A-stan might not change it. Much of the heavy fighting in the south happens in relatively flat terrain. Because of that the good use of Canadian tanks can be explained.The much more mountaineous part in the north is relatively quiet and the mountaineous border regions to pakistan are IMHO the home of ISAF/OEF special forces rather than regular troops.

 

[kams]

At what elevations are they training at, yes some of the specialized units do recieve mountain training but they are not just dedicated to that type of warfare. Maybe this will change with the style of fighting in Afhganistan that U.S units along with NATO forces are dealing with. I would like to see at least one U.S division dedicated to just this type of fighting.

HAWS is located at Gulmarg in J&K at a height of around 6500 ft. I have no idea as to height at which the exercise is planned.

India has another training school specializing in High Altitude, this one is High ALtitude Commando school or Parvat Ghatak, located at Tawang at a height of 15,000 ft. .

Waylander, Eckherl,

I do agree that training some units in HAW is no substitute for having dedicated mountain warfare division. However it'd no easy job developing/maintaining a devision size unit dedicated to High altitude fighting. India/Pakistan/China do it because of they have internation borders at this height.

Do you guys believe there is scope for employing these units (NATO and/or US/ and/or European) in any potential conflicts?

 

[Waylander]

It doesn't has to be a real Division, a (maybe overstrength) brigade could be enough.

At least in case of defense of their own soil the european countries bordering the alps need such a force.
They could IMHO also be used for actions in A-stan. As long as I know our mountain troops also counducted mountain patrols during the early days of the Kosovo campaign to close the gaps there.

 

[Rasmussin]

The answer is Turkish Mountain Commandos
Commando Brigades [3 Commando & 1 Artillery Btn per]
* 1ST Commando Brigade
* 2nd Commando Brigade (Also known as "Bolu Second Commando Brigade")
* 3rd Commando Brigade
Possible other unit names are:
* Mountain Commando Brigade
* Hakkari Commando Mountain Brigade

The 1st Commando Brigade is based out of Kayseri, Turkey. They have recently been deployed to various areas in the Southeast Anatolia region to battle against separatist terrorists. During these battles this brigade earned itself the "Distinguished Courage Medal of the Turkish Armed Forces", the second time it has done so since 1974.

The 2nd Commando Brigade is based out of Bolu, Turkey. They also were deployed to the South Eastern Anatolia region to fight terrorism. In addition to the 1st Brigade, they were awarded the "Distinguished Courage Medal of the Turkish Armed Forces" as well for their efforts. Members of the Bolu BRigade were also deployed into Iraq in early 1999 during raids the Turkish military claimed were conducted against members of the PKK (Kurdistan Workers' Party).

"2256 PKK terrorists killed by these brigades in two years on the Iraq mountains over 3000 m altitude( between 1993-1995)

 

[nero]

helicopters

.
u still need high-altitude helicopters for transport.

which modern transport helicopter has the highest service-ceiling ???

plz update if possible.

.

 

[eckherl]

HAWS is located at Gulmarg in J&K at a height of around 6500 ft. I have no idea as to height at which the exercise is planned.

India has another training school specializing in High Altitude, this one is High ALtitude Commando school or Parvat Ghatak, located at Tawang at a height of 15,000 ft. .

Waylander, Eckherl,

I do agree that training some units in HAW is no substitute for having dedicated mountain warfare division. However it'd no easy job developing/maintaining a devision size unit dedicated to High altitude fighting. India/Pakistan/China do it because of they have internation borders at this height.

Do you guys believe there is scope for employing these units (NATO and/or US/ and/or European) in any potential conflicts?

I second what Waylander stated, I would be content with a specialized dedicated unit in the size of a brigade.

 

[riksavage]

UK Royal Marines who have recently returned from Afghanistan are now cross-training at the high-altitude Mountain school in India at company level. i understand they are working with the Indian Para's.

Thsi follows on from recent RAF / IAF exchanges, so looking forward it's good to see NATO and Indian forces sharing their respective experiences.

 

[riksavage]

Following on from the above comment, the cross-training between the UK-RM and Indian Para's has upset the Pakistani's.


Pakistan upset over India-UK war game in Kashmir
Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:52am BST

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[-] Text [+] ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - High-altitude military exercises by India and Britain in mountains in the disputed Kashmir region are not legal, Pakistan said on Monday.
British and Indian forces are carrying out a three-week exercise in the Ladakh area of the Himalayan region of Kashmir, at the heart of decades of hostility and the cause of two of the three wars the nuclear-armed neighbours have fought.

Pakistan had lodged a protest with both India and Britain over the exercises, which were not a "legal activity", Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said.

"Ladakh is part of Jammu and Kashmir, (which) is an internationally recognised disputed territory and more than anybody else, Britain should be aware of it," Aslam told a weekly news conference.

Last week, Pakistan lodged a protest with India over a plan to open the Siachen Glacier, also in the Kashmir region, to tourist trekkers. The two sides have faced off across the glacier, known as the word's highest battlefield, since 1984.

The South Asian neighbours began a peace process in early 2004 after going to the brink of their fourth war in 2002.

The talks have led to an improvement in sporting, transport and diplomatic links, but there has been no substantial progress on Muslim-majority Kashmir.

 

[funtz]

Do not read too much into it, in the sub-continent statements by respective ministry of external affairs (of Bhutan,Bangladesh,India, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, Sril Lanka) are a major source of passing time, other pass-some-time activities include Cricket, football and drinking tea.

 

[XaNDeR]

.
u still need high-altitude helicopters for transport.

which modern transport helicopter has the highest service-ceiling ???

plz update if possible.

.

Most modern helicopters have service celling of more than 4km or 5km so most of the heli's are capable of transporting troops in very high mountains or hills.

Id say Eurocopter Super Puma has the biggest or 1 of the biggest service celling which is over 7km , almost as high as the highest mountain in the world which is Mount Everest at 8.8km.

 

[kams]

A report on Indo-UK joint exercise in the Himalaya, answers the question we had earlier on the altitude at which the exercise was carried out..

PUSHING THE LIMITS

Two city Royal Marines were hospitalised for five days with altitude sickness during the first British land forces exercises to be held in northern India for 60 years.The marines from Bickleigh-based 42 Commando were treated and later flown back to the UK after coughing up blood and experiencing extreme shortness of breath during the hazardous mountain and cold-weather exercises in the Himalayas. Training at a height of up to 18,300ft, the marines of 42 Cdo's M Company have since made a full recovery.

A report into the exercises states that all 112 members of the party experienced symptoms such as shortness of breath on exertion, headaches, difficulty sleeping, reduced appetite and dehydration.

It also states that altitude sickness - including high-altitude pulmonary oedema, which put the two men in hospital, and acute mountain sickness - had been expected.



"In summary, only four men were unable to participate in the final exercise," the report states.

"This is considered to be an excellent result reflecting careful acclimatisation and expeditious treatment of cases of mountain sickness.

"The exercise proved an excellent learning experience for medical and non-medical staff in the prevention and management of altitude related illnesses."

Exercise Himalayan Warrior was the first opportunity for M Company to work together as a formation since returning from operations in Afghanistan.

Trekking and climbing across the snow-covered picturesque Himalayan mountains, the marines made history by becoming the first British land forces to train in Northern India since 1947.

Working alongside the Indian Army, the marines carried out various mountain and cold- weather exercises including high-altitude training, ice drills and cliff-top assaults.

The culmination of the exercise saw 'M' Company and the Indian Paratroopers combine to attack two mock enemy positions, with the main assault combining a cliff assault and a conventional attack.

Major Martin Collin, in charge of M Company, said: "As soon as we landed and departed the aircraft I began to feel light-headed and dizzy, which progressed to a strong headache later in the day.

"I've conducted mountain training around the world, never at this altitude, but nothing can prepare you for the feeling you get here.

"Thankfully, all my symptoms stopped as we moved through the acclimatisation package, although I still suffered from shortness of breath and being exhausted during physical exertion: no change there, then!"

Maj Collin said the exercises were an invaluable opportunity for 42 Commando to enhance its knowledge and experience of operating at high altitude.

Major Sandeep of the Indian Paratroopers also described the training as being hugely successful.

"The lessons learned by all parties were exceptional and I can only hope that this is the start of a lasting relationship between the Royal Marines and our paratroopers," he added.

On its return from India, M Company will continue to prepare for deployment to Norway in the early part of next year.

 

[riksavage]

Photos included in the attached article. I understand the RM will now host the Indian Paras on an exercise in the UK.

http://www.royalmarines.mod.uk/unit...s/news/news-article.php?article_id=94#gallery

 

[eckherl]

Kams and Riksavage - thanks for sharing the article and photos, I wonder if the RM wil take the Indian Paras to Scotland to climb old Ben.

 

[riksavage]

More like Norway for the winter deployment. The Paras will then get to work with both the RM and Dutch in extreme conditions.

 

[Waylander]

Kams and Riksavage - thanks for sharing the article and photos, I wonder if the RM wil take the Indian Paras to Scotland to climb old Ben.

Which Ben?
For the Indians the Scottish mountains would look like nice hills.