Can singapore hold its own?

[levathan]

The link to the purchase of the additional 12 F-15s mentioned by Transient:

http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne+News/Singapore/Story/A1Story20071022-31497.html

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Can't go wrong when its from the horse's mouth.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2007/oct/22oct07_nr.html

Additional aircraft will be delivered from 2010. The 24 makes a complete squadron.

Current F15SGs are due to be delivered from 2009 after the initial ROK order is fulfilled. Looks like the St Louis employees are reassured of a couple more years of employment...

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2007/february/i_ids01.pdf

My take is that Govt revenues have gone up significantly since 2005 which probably provides the justification for the purchase at this time. Also, exchange rates must be really good at this time.

 

[paskal]

Can't go wrong when its from the horse's mouth.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2007/oct/22oct07_nr.html

Additional aircraft will be delivered from 2010. The 24 makes a complete squadron.

Current F15SGs are due to be delivered from 2009 after the initial ROK order is fulfilled. Looks like the St Louis employees are reassured of a couple more years of employment...

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2007/february/i_ids01.pdf

My take is that Govt revenues have gone up significantly since 2005 which probably provides the justification for the purchase at this time. Also, exchange rates must be really good at this time.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/new...2oct07_nr.html
No disrespect dude. im just asking.
It is stated that the mindef EXERCISED the option of buying an additional 12 more f-15 sg.I dont now to you guys but that EXERCISE words sounds different to me

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Sorry, you can't read?

 

[swerve]

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/new...2oct07_nr.html
No disrespect dude. im just asking.
It is stated that the mindef EXERCISED the option of buying an additional 12 more f-15 sg.I dont now to you guys but that EXERCISE words sounds different to me

Singapore had an option to buy additional F-15s on terms negotiated at the time of the original buy. Singapore has exercised the option. That means that it has converted the option into a firm order.

To exercise an option means to take it up, to put it into effect, etc. It's the standard word. It's been in the terms of every share option I've ever had.

 

[barra]

None, but that's the point isn't it? Not to have to. Never, I think is what the RSAF would aim for.

I think the RSAF would aim to never be flying combat missions over Singapore. Singapore can't afford to let an aggressor strike first, if a credible threat was ID'd and intel indicated a strike was imminent I am sure you would see the RSAF swing into action. F-16 with CFT, F-15SG and KC-135 gives them a very wide radius of action.

Exercises are good for training and Red Flag would be the best one to attend but there is no substitute for experience. It is the one quality that can't be learnt through training, actually doing it for real. Knowing that you are on a two way range certainly adds to the pucker factor.

Hooroo

 

[weasel1962]

Re

I think the RSAF would aim to never be flying combat missions over Singapore. Singapore can't afford to let an aggressor strike first, if a credible threat was ID'd and intel indicated a strike was imminent I am sure you would see the RSAF swing into action. F-16 with CFT, F-15SG and KC-135 gives them a very wide radius of action.

Absolutely. 9/11 changed the complexion of air defence. I think monitoring of civilian traffic has actually been stepped up a notch in case someone attempts something similar.

Exercises are good for training and Red Flag would be the best one to attend but there is no substitute for experience. It is the one quality that can't be learnt through training, actually doing it for real. Knowing that you are on a two way range certainly adds to the pucker factor.

I agree. You can't really tell how good a pilot will be until he or she goes through the fires of combat.

 

[LazerLordz]

Can't go wrong when its from the horse's mouth.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2007/oct/22oct07_nr.html

Additional aircraft will be delivered from 2010. The 24 makes a complete squadron.

Current F15SGs are due to be delivered from 2009 after the initial ROK order is fulfilled. Looks like the St Louis employees are reassured of a couple more years of employment...

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2007/february/i_ids01.pdf

My take is that Govt revenues have gone up significantly since 2005 which probably provides the justification for the purchase at this time. Also, exchange rates must be really good at this time.

The MAS (Singapore's Central Bank) has decided to let the Singapore dollar appreciate for a longer period.

Not a bad time to do more foreign purchases.

As to the final quantity, I'm guessing that it will end at 40. Whether we may get more than that, will depend on the final configuration of the F-35 that will be granted to us.

 

[paskal]

Singapore had an option to buy additional F-15s on terms negotiated at the time of the original buy. Singapore has exercised the option. That means that it has converted the option into a firm order.

To exercise an option means to take it up, to put it into effect, etc. It's the standard word. It's been in the terms of every share option I've ever had.

Thanks man
so this means now singapore has 24 f-15 sg
when will the delivery will be made?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Embarrassing. Just noted that an alignment error in UN reporting caused a misread. 36 F16s were sold to UAE and not Singapore in year 2005. Accordingly, total F16s should be 62 (after deducting 2 for losses) as originally indicated...

Sigh. The RSAF would be smaller than the RAAF then.

The MAS (Singapore's Central Bank) has decided to let the Singapore dollar appreciate for a longer period.

Not a bad time to do more foreign purchases.

As to the final quantity, I'm guessing that it will end at 40. Whether we may get more than that, will depend on the final configuration of the F-35 that will be granted to us.

Yup. I think the Koreans are looking at the same matrix in their new 20 fighter requirement. Nobody else but Boeing seems to be interested. No surprise there.

Even the F18E/F purchase by Australia can be considered good timing with the strength of the Aussie $. Exchange rates definitely is a factor.

 

[battlensign]

Embarrassing. Just noted that an alignment error in UN reporting caused a misread. 36 F16s were sold to UAE and not Singapore in year 2005. Accordingly, total F16s should be 62 (after deducting 2 for losses) as originally indicated...

Sigh. The RSAF would be smaller than the RAAF then.



Yup. I think the Koreans are looking at the same matrix in their new 20 fighter requirement. Nobody else but Boeing seems to be interested. No surprise there.

Even the F18E/F purchase by Australia can be considered good timing with the strength of the Aussie $. Exchange rates definitely is a factor.

Hmm....100 F-16's would seem a little high for the RSAF. Thanks for the clarification. The F-15SGs will be sweet thought.... (sooo jealous)

Brett.

 

[Chino]

When SAF says it has 300 AMX-13, 700 M113, several hundred Bionix, several hundred Broncos and other vehicle types...etc etc

...does this mean all are able to go into action altogether at once? Or are some just spares to replace those damaged during action?

For example officially, of the 96 Leopards, 30 are meant to be spares. This makes sense espcially when vehicle is out of production.

So for others like the AMX-13 - which officially stands at +/- 300 vehicles, what proportion of this number actually belong in working units and what proportion sits at the base as spares?

 

[paskal]

When SAF says it has 300 AMX-13, 700 M113, several hundred Bionix, several hundred Broncos and other vehicle types...etc etc

...does this mean all are able to go into action altogether at once? Or are some just spares to replace those damaged during action?

For example officially, of the 96 Leopards, 30 are meant to be spares. This makes sense espcially when vehicle is out of production.

So for others like the AMX-13 - which officially stands at +/- 300 vehicles, what proportion of this number actually belong in working units and what proportion sits at the base as spares?

Im not that sure about the others
But in wikipedia[i dont now if its relliable] it is written that the M113 is now in stores and now the singapore goverment is using the BIONIX II vehicle

 

[gary1910]

Im not that sure about the others
But in wikipedia[i dont now if its relliable] it is written that the M113 is now in stores and now the singapore goverment is using the BIONIX II vehicle

Where did Wiki say that?

Even though it is now well known that BX will eventually be replacing all M113 in the frontline Div as IFV/APC role, but recent exe in Australia and India, SAF is still using them, so certainly they are not in storage, especially those that involved in the NCW evaluation, i.e. upgraded with BMS?

2ndly, M113 were recently upgraded in the mid to late 90s with 2 version( ie abt 1 decade ago), one with 25mm OWS and the other with 40/50 ( CIS 40mm AGL and CIS 50HMG) plus uparmouring, spall liner etc etc,which were estimated to be around 500 of them.

So it means that they will be around for at least another decade or so in IFV/APC role.

And some have been modified to take on a new role, for example Mechanised Igla.

So in conclusion , M113s are certainly not in storage now as said in Wiki,they are still in use as IFV/APC in the fronline Div and some already started to take on a new role. Eventually their role as IFV will be taken over by BX but will be likely to be seconded to PDF,so the M113 will be around for at least 2 decades or more.

 

[paskal]

Where did Wiki say that?

Even though it is now well known that BX will eventually be replacing all M113 in the frontline Div as IFV/APC role, but recent exe in Australia and India, SAF is still using them, so certainly they are not in storage, especially those that involved in the NCW evaluation, i.e. upgraded with BMS?

2ndly, M113 were recently upgraded in the mid to late 90s with 2 version( ie abt 1 decade ago), one with 25mm OWS and the other with 40/50 ( CIS 40mm AGL and CIS 50HMG) plus uparmouring, spall liner etc etc,which were estimated to be around 500 of them.

So it means that they will be around for at least another decade or so in IFV/APC role.

And some have been modified to take on a new role, for example Mechanised Igla.

So in conclusion , M113s are certainly not in storage now as said in Wiki,they are still in use as IFV/APC in the fronline Div and some already started to take on a new role. Eventually their role as IFV will be taken over by BX but will be likely to be seconded to PDF,so the M113 will be around for at least 2 decades or more.

Thats weird the last time i went to wiki they write that it was in the storage
But to me the M113 is quite to old for singapore and i can bet you they will not last for another 20 years!!!
Thats just to long man
I think the SAF will likely will just used the M113 that is equipped with the IGLA.
I think the M113 will just last another 5 years the most.Its served to long for the SAF.Its time for the BIONIX II to play a bigger role in SAF future.

 

[gary1910]

Thats weird the last time i went to wiki they write that it was in the storage
But to me the M113 is quite to old for singapore and i can bet you they will not last for another 20 years!!!
Thats just to long man
I think the SAF will likely will just used the M113 that is equipped with the IGLA.
I think the M113 will just last another 5 years the most.Its served to long for the SAF.Its time for the BIONIX II to play a bigger role in SAF future.

Why not?

Since SAF went through an expensive entensive upgrade for our M113 to Ultra standard, that means they have plan to have them operational for at least 2 decades or so, otherwise they will not have upgraded them.

In fact I heard rumours that it will stay in the frontline Div for about another 1 decade.

2ndly, our very first AFV which is the wheeled 4x4 V-150/200 are still in used by RSAF and PDF, so will some of the Ultra be replacing that role in PDF?

Very possible, because the recently upgraded Ultra is better in term of protection and more diverse firepower as compare to V-200.

Next is why do you mean by old?

Old as it is all worn out?

Don't forget that they are recently upgraded, even upgraded may not be as good as modern IFV like BX as it is limited in term of protection, but many countries are still using them and many also upgraded them, and MY new ACV-300 or Adnan is actually an upgraded version of M113, do you know that?

So if they are properly maintain and upgraded with new powerplant etc, it could still last for decades.

Many example like the 50s era Centurion MBT, it is still being used by number of countries, Turkey just upgraded their 60s era M60 to Sabra standard etc.

 

[paskal]

Why not?

Since SAF went through an expensive entensive upgrade for our M113 to Ultra standard, that means they have plan to have them operational for at least 2 decades or so, otherwise they will not have upgraded them.

In fact I heard rumours that it will stay in the frontline Div for about another 1 decade.

2ndly, our very first AFV which is the wheeled 4x4 V-150/200 are still in used by RSAF and PDF, so will some of the Ultra be replacing that role in PDF?

Very possible, because the recently upgraded Ultra is better in term of protection and more diverse firepower as compare to V-200.

Next is why do you mean by old?

Old as it is all worn out?

Don't forget that they are recently upgraded, even upgraded may not be as good as modern IFV like BX as it is limited in term of protection, but many countries are still using them and many also upgraded them, and MY new ACV-300 or Adnan is actually an upgraded version of M113, do you know that?

So if they are properly maintain and upgraded with new powerplant etc, it could still last for decades.

Many example like the 50s era Centurion MBT, it is still being used by number of countries, Turkey just upgraded their 60s era M60 to Sabra standard etc.

MY ADNAN IFV and upgrade of M113 i never heard of that
ok ok........im just saying since the SAF now are trying to modernize their military i just think that they should use the bionix II than the M113.
To me the M113 should be kept in storage for backup in time of crisis.

As you can see the malaysian ADNAN IFV are now equipped with the BAKHTAR shikan from PAKISTAN.I think the M113 equipped with the IGLA defence system could be used for another i decade or something like that

2 decades thats just to much dude especially when the SAF is going technological now.....
imgine in 2027 the SAF still using the M113:
That will be suicidal in tine of crisis.
I personally think the M113 will only last another 5 years or something[not include with igla] then the supperiour BIONIX II will take their role

PEACE

 

[Chino]

Nearly everything on an AFV can be modified or replaced. The transmission can be replaced, and sometimes even the suspension can be modified.

And in all upgrades, the engine is usually the first thing to go. As is the main weapon and the FCS and other electronics.

An AFV body is nothing more than a very strong metal box. If modification is estimated to be cost effective, almost anything can be done.

The brutally simple shape of the M113 means you can just about adapt it to any other uses.

IDF have kept all their M113 and M60 modified and running till today. If you look at a modifed IDF M60, you won't even recognise it.

Even the 60-year old Centurions and captured T-55 are converted into APCs and still fighting today.

If you look at the AFP (Armed Forces of Philippines) on the timawa forum, you can see all the creative things they have done with their old AFVs.

Taiwan have also kept their old tanks (M60?) modified and running.

 

[Chino]

MY ADNAN IFV and upgrade of M113 i never heard of that

MY is more than capable of upgrading AFVs if they decide to do it.

But there were accusations in the past that some high up MAF people get "incentives" for purchasing new stuff.

 

[gary1910]

MY ADNAN IFV and upgrade of M113 i never heard of that
ok ok........im just saying since the SAF now are trying to modernize their military i just think that they should use the bionix II than the M113.
To me the M113 should be kept in storage for backup in time of crisis.

As you can see the malaysian ADNAN IFV are now equipped with the BAKHTAR shikan from PAKISTAN.I think the M113 equipped with the IGLA defence system could be used for another i decade or something like that

2 decades thats just to much dude especially when the SAF is going technological now.....
imgine in 2027 the SAF still using the M113:
That will be suicidal in tine of crisis.
I personally think the M113 will only last another 5 years or something[not include with igla] then the supperiour BIONIX II will take their role

PEACE

You really don't know much about ACV-300,first read about AIFV which is the ungraded version of M113 where Turkish version is the ACV-300:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIFV

Then read about ACV-300 itself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACV_300

Please don't make any unsubstantial remark about SAF when you don't even know what is MAF ACV-300!?!

Even we ordinary Singaporean don't even know when we will be retiring the M113.

But I can tell you that I can bet my house on it that SAF will be continue using M113 as IFV/APC role for at least 1 decade, the reason is that the last batch of NSF that trained on them ORD not long ago, and this batch will go through 10 years ICTs, that means the M113 Ultra will last for another 10 years or so.

After that , there is very possibilities that they will be seconded to PDF to replace the V-200 which is even older than the M113, will it happen after that I don't know, but since our very first APC( V-200) is still around, why is the 2nd batch of APC (M113) retire before the V-200???