Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[Ozzy Blizzard]

in what way,whatsoever would that be worse??????

the typhoon is a more capable air to air fighter than the f35 and its air to ground capability is up and running and will be even more formidable by the time an aussie order materialised!......and its a lot cheaper than the raptor,esp if you consider the local manufacturing package that would go with it.
i dont know where this anti typhoon snobbery comes from,the aircraft is superb and doesnt deserve this kind of attitude towards it.

Its not anti typhoon stuff mate, the EF 2000 is a fearsome platform no boubt about it, and it clearly shows the talent and professionalism of the European airospace industry, plus it is one beutifull aircraft.

I know you pommies are a bit touchie about it, but your going to have to realise the effect that true VLO, networked platforms will have on airial combat. And the cold hard truth of the matter is that Typhoon will ALWAYS be a golden mile behind the F35 in terms of information dominance, and that means its going to be a long way behind in A2A capability, supercruise or not. The combination of excellent sensors and real VLO means the F35 is revoloutionary, rather than the Tphoon which is evoloutionary, hence 4.5th gen to 5th gen label. The typhoon does the same things as the last gen of platforms, albeit very well, the F35 on the other hand plays the game by different rules. It has a huge "unfair" advantage, and its called VLO.

I'm sory mate but your going to have to realise this fact or your going to have alot of these conversations over the next 20 years. The americans have made a big breakthrough with 5th gen aircraft, and the rest of the world is now a long way behind, typhoon and all.

P.S. The Typhoon will probably be a much better interceptor, when equiped with CAESAR, but not an air superiority fighter.

 

[jaffo4011]

hmmmm,as ground attack aircraft,the f35 is going to be awesome,no doubt and thats why the raf and rn are buying then too.

air superiority will always go the typhoons way however(although i cant wait for them to mix it up when they are eventually delivered)....

afterall if the f22 cant get the better of the tiffie in close combat then what chance the f35?

i think we should remember in any case that over the last 50 yrs long range missile shoots are a rare event for fear of an accidental shooting down of the 'good' guy(whether friendly or civilian) and the political repercussions which follow.....as such the close in manoueveribility again becomes king....

thankfully we'll all be on the same side in our f22's,35's and tiffies but i dont think that australia should worry if the govt did go the typhoons way..its still one of the best multi role aircraft around...

on second thoughts...why i am i getting into this inane discussion yet again!....they will buy what they buy and all of our platforms are brilliant compared to the rest so why argue about it!!!!!!!

 

[barra]

i think we should remember in any case that over the last 50 yrs long range missile shoots are a rare event for fear of an accidental shooting down of the 'good' guy(whether friendly or civilian) and the political repercussions which follow.....as such the close in manoueveribility again becomes king....

This is the whole idea of a tactical data link, to minimise the chances of a blue on blue engagement by providing players a complete situational awareness picture of the battle area.

I know you pommies are a bit touchie about it, but your going to have to realise the effect that true VLO, networked platforms will have on airial combat. And the cold hard truth of the matter is that Typhoon will ALWAYS be a golden mile behind the F35 in terms of information dominance, and that means its going to be a long way behind in A2A capability, supercruise or not. The combination of excellent sensors and real VLO means the F35 is revoloutionary, rather than the Tphoon which is evoloutionary, hence 4.5th gen to 5th gen label.

I wouldn't doubt the quality of the EF sensors and TDL. The poms are old school users of TDL and i would expect all those years of experience would be channelled into EF 2000. The VLO is another matter though, however in a networked situation when the EF is getting a TDL feed from an AWAC's and his sensors are totally passive it is a moot point. He can maneuver into a firing position, satisfy his ROE via the TDL and kill the hostile without using his sensors. The hostile meanwhile has to bang away with his radar letting everyone know exactly where and who he is.

Hooroo

 

[FutureTank]

in what way,whatsoever would that be worse??????

the typhoon is a more capable air to air fighter than the f35 and its air to ground capability is up and running and will be even more formidable by the time an aussie order materialised!......and its a lot cheaper than the raptor,esp if you consider the local manufacturing package that would go with it.
i don't know where this anti typhoon snobbery comes from,the aircraft is superb and doesn't deserve this kind of attitude towards it.

I'm not sure that I indicated anywhere that the Typhoon is not a good aircraft.
Its just that Australia already invested quite a bit of cash in the F-35 development.

 

[FutureTank]

in what way,whatsoever would that be worse??????

the typhoon is a more capable air to air fighter than the f35 and its air to ground capability is up and running and will be even more formidable by the time an aussie order materialised!......and its a lot cheaper than the raptor,esp if you consider the local manufacturing package that would go with it.
i dont know where this anti typhoon snobbery comes from,the aircraft is superb and doesnt deserve this kind of attitude towards it.

It seems to me that its too early to make comparisons in any case...
I was intimating the economic consequences of an unwise political decision

 

[Simon9]

I'm not sure that I indicated anywhere that the Typhoon is not a good aircraft.
Its just that Australia already invested quite a bit of cash in the F-35 development.

Yeah and Australia has a bad history of military investments, particularly when the politicians get involved. The last thing we need to start doing is let the pollies screw it all up again.

The Typhoon is an awesome aircraft - for 2007 at least. In 2017, we'll have to wait and see. It'll be interesting to see how it does stack up to the JSF's stealth. I don't think it'll be as cut-and-dried as some commentators seem to think - there's an attitude of "stealth = invincible" but the JSF is not so much stealthy as LO and we could see a host of anti-LO technology in the next decade. Especially with the Russians having that F-117 airframe from Kosovo.

 

[FutureTank]

Especially with the Russians having that F-117 airframe from Kosovo.

You mean parts of the airframe? I think they are done testing by now though

 

[Simon9]

You mean parts of the airframe? I think they are done testing by now though

Well the airframe held together remarkably well for something that fell out of the sky.

I think they'll have got all the information they're going to get from the airframe itself (hence some reports saying China has it now) but actually developing anti-LO technology to a useable state is going to take many years.

 

[FutureTank]

Well the airframe held together remarkably well for something that fell out of the sky.

I think they'll have got all the information they're going to get from the airframe itself

I can't remember exactly now, but at the time I was in the USA and the reports suggested that the USAF was not worried because airframe did break up significantly and some security-sensitive blocks were destroyed by inbuilt safeguards. Russians admitted that technical intelligence from obtained parts was not very significant for developing countermeasures.

 

[Simon9]

I can't remember exactly now, but at the time I was in the USA and the reports suggested that the USAF was not worried because airframe did break up significantly and some security-sensitive blocks were destroyed by inbuilt safeguards. Russians admitted that technical intelligence from obtained parts was not very significant for developing countermeasures.

I was thinking more of the RAM components and deflecting of EM waves, but I suppose the Russians were the ones who came up with the geometrical equations of stealth in the first place, so perhaps they didn't learn much there except the exact composition of the US RAMs.

Also, I suppose it would be in the Russians' best interest to claim that anyway, so we probably can't really take much from that.

 

[FutureTank]

I was thinking more of the RAM components and deflecting of EM waves, but I suppose the Russians were the ones who came up with the geometrical equations of stealth in the first place,

Yes, the research begun in Russia, but was hindered by interservice rivalry from the first project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_A-40

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

hmmmm,as ground attack aircraft,the f35 is going to be awesome,no doubt and thats why the raf and rn are buying then too.

air superiority will always go the typhoons way however(although i cant wait for them to mix it up when they are eventually delivered)....

afterall if the f22 cant get the better of the tiffie in close combat then what chance the f35?

ummm...........

Are you refering to this internet rumor that the Typhoon "dominated" the F22 in WVR combat. See, i've had a look around and i cant find any direct evidence of that encounter, or even thet it even happened. Which kind of makes that claim pretty, hmmm hard to beleive. Now maybe if they had both run out of missiles, or were using AIM 9L's, the Typhoon's lower wing loading may ollow it to beat the Raptor in a korea style dogfight. But WVR is now dominated by new gen IR guided missiles with high off broadsight engagement envilopes, including lock on after launch capabilities. And in this environmend, the ability to point the noze, IR supression and a HMCS are the deciding factors, (apart from ofcource the missiles themselves) so i dont know how devistating a low wing loading will be???

Anyway i would give the WVR advantage to the F35. The missile/sensor combination of ASRAAM/AIM9X and the DAS will be devistating in WVR. These Focal Plane Array equiped WVR missiles have a wide, off broadsight lock on capability, the ASRAAM in particular has a 360 degree engagement envilope. The DAS has a 360 degree ir sensor coverage. Can you see what i'm getting at? The F35 will be able to take a missile shot at a target on any bearing, even directly behind the aircraft or directly below when using ASRAAM, and pretty close when using AIM 9X. The only constricting factor is range. So why would Typhoon's better kinematics or wing loading counter this at all, considering Folcal Plane Array equiped IR missiles can not be defeated by geometry alone? tiffy may be a better dogfighter, but the ability to put a missile on target first is what really matters, and even if a typhoon gets on a Lighnings tail, it'll have to contend with missile shots. Typhoon on the other hand has no such "DAS like" system.

i think we should remember in any case that over the last 50 yrs long range missile shoots are a rare event for fear of an accidental shooting down of the 'good' guy(whether friendly or civilian) and the political repercussions which follow.....as such the close in manoueveribility again becomes king....

Networking and modern IFF systems now make BVR killing the name of the game, typhoon has plenty of its design work put towards BVR performance, not to mention all the time and effort MBDA have put into METEOR.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I wouldn't doubt the quality of the EF sensors and TDL. The poms are old school users of TDL and i would expect all those years of experience would be channelled into EF 2000. The VLO is another matter though, however in a networked situation when the EF is getting a TDL feed from an AWAC's and his sensors are totally passive it is a moot point. He can maneuver into a firing position, satisfy his ROE via the TDL and kill the hostile without using his sensors. The hostile meanwhile has to bang away with his radar letting everyone know exactly where and who he is.

Hooroo

The typhoon has an impressive sensor sweat, impresive with PIRATE and when CAESAR is implemented. However i would be supprised if an AESA equiped CAPTOR radar would be as good as an APG 81, considereing the maturity of US active array technology and its advanced features such as LPI and EW. Include systems like DAS and the A2G & ISR capabilities of the EOTS and i would give a healthy sensor lead to the F35. Now when working with an AEW&C platform it may not matter all that much, but that wont be all of the time.

The reason i meantioned networking was not that the F35 will have a datalink and typhoon wont, i believe they call theirs JTIDS and i have no doubt that it is in every way comperable to link 16. However networking has an additional benifit for VLO platforms, it effectively preserves their stealthyness when going up against opponants with a sophisticated ESM capability. The combination of VLO and passive engagement will be devistating, and something Typhoon will not be able to match.

As for your scenario, what if the opfor has AEW&C support and the appropriate level of networking aswell??? In such a scenario nothing much cahnges for the F35 because it remains undetected by the opposing AEW&C and can lauch passively on the opposing platforms who, because they are not VLO, are detected and tracked by their AEW&C platform. Game Over. However the typhoon has to slug it out with the opfor and rely on any kinemtaic/missile/personell advantage they hold over the opfor. Its the combination of VLO & Networking that make 5th gen platforms a so capable in A2A, and the reason why the F35 will be a long way ahead of typhoon in BVR A2A combat.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

there's an attitude of "stealth = invincible" but the JSF is not so much stealthy as LO and we could see a host of anti-LO technology in the next decade. Especially with the Russians having that F-117 airframe from Kosovo.

Its not "Stealth=Invincible". But the cold hard truth is that VLO gives an F35/F22 a HUGE advantage over a conventional platform.

AS far as "Anti Stealth" tech? well even IF the russians gain some ground with more powerfull ground based radars and better IR tech, they will still be a mile behind considering F35/F22 can still use those excellent AESA radars to full effect, & I dont see this situation changing any time soon. Unless a serios breakthrough in a new form of technology occurs, which is allways possible i guess, then the only evening factor will be VLO platformsof your own, and i doubt we will see that untill the PAK FA's sucsessor hits the scene. Although by then the F22's replacement will be around and i doubt it will be manned let alone at the smae level of LO.

 

[lobbie111]

What do you call the JORN i hear it can detect stealth but was this just luck?

 

[Aussie Digger]

What do you call the JORN i hear it can detect stealth but was this just luck?

When will people learn, detection of an LO aircraft is not hugely relevant? Can you target a surface to air missile system based on mere detection alone?

It's an ability to TRACK an LO aircraft that is important, unless you wish to fire randomly in the direction of said detected aircraft and we've ALL seen how effective that is in Iraq...

The LO reduction measures on US LO aircraft allow them to get within range of their own weapons, whilst remaining outside the tracking range of potential enemy systems.

That is it. Stealth doesn't make an aircraft invisible. It doesn't even necessarily render an aircraft impervious to radar detection.

JORN is a massively powerful "over the horizon" radar system, with transmitters / receivers kilometers long. Yes it has reputedly "detected"stealth aircraft, so have other radar types supposedly. The data obtain however cannot be used for targetting purposes and possibly not even for cueing an interceptor...

 

[Simon9]

When will people learn, detection of an LO aircraft is not hugely relevant? Can you target a surface to air missile system based on mere detection alone?

It's an ability to TRACK an LO aircraft that is important, unless you wish to fire randomly in the direction of said detected aircraft and we've ALL seen how effective that is in Iraq...

I think it was actually an Australian exchange pilot flying aggressor at Red Flag who's been quoted as saying that even when he could SEE the F-22 in front of him, he couldn't lock onto it?

JORN is a massively powerful "over the horizon" radar system, with transmitters / receivers kilometers long. Yes it has reputedly "detected"stealth aircraft, so have other radar types supposedly. The data obtain however cannot be used for targetting purposes and possibly not even for cueing an interceptor...

Well it could cue an interceptor in the general direction - but if the opponent was an F-22 the interceptor would be shot down long before it could get close enough.

So yes, the development of an anti-LO tracking radar is the issue. But the entire history of the EW "Battle of the Beams" is one of endless measure and counter-measure. And there are radars allegedly capable of detecting LO, as they are refined and their resolution increased it's possible that before too long they will become accurate enough to plot a missile firing solution. So it wouldn't surprise me if LO does meet its match - but of course I'm being entirely speculative and not suggesting for a moment I know how it might be done.

Then there will be anti-anti-stealth systems and the whole cycle will continue...

 

[Aussie Digger]

I think it was actually an Australian exchange pilot flying aggressor at Red Flag who's been quoted as saying that even when he could SEE the F-22 in front of him, he couldn't lock onto it?



Well it could cue an interceptor in the general direction - but if the opponent was an F-22 the interceptor would be shot down long before it could get close enough.

But there are SO many factors involved it very well might be impossible to do so. JORN can allegedly sweep up to 3500 k's remember?

If it detects a track at 1500k's heading on any number of courses, how many interceptors are going to reach said aircraft in time, even IF airborne?

o yes, the development of an anti-LO tracking radar is the issue. But the entire history of the EW "Battle of the Beams" is one of endless measure and counter-measure. And there are radars allegedly capable of detecting LO, as they are refined and their resolution increased it's possible that before too long they will become accurate enough to plot a missile firing solution. So it wouldn't surprise me if LO does meet its match - but of course I'm being entirely speculative and not suggesting for a moment I know how it might be done.

Then there will be anti-anti-stealth systems and the whole cycle will continue...

Agreed. LO reduction measures have clearly come a long way since the F-117. The B-2 introduced the "curved" LO aircraft shape and this has been refined further in high performance LO aircraft, specifically F-22 and F-35.

Besides which, the US builds some of the best if not THE best fire control radars in the world.

I'm pretty sure the LO designers are up to date WRT to the latest developments in radar technology...

And even if a system IS generated which limits the overall effectiveness of LO reduction measures, I have a VERY hard time believing anything will totally eliminate it's advantages completely, given not only radar systems are targetted by the technology involved but IR/UV spectrums as well...

Tactics can always overcome any such short term problems anyway...

 

[Grand Danois]

Besides which, the US builds some of the best if not THE best fire control radars in the world.

I'm pretty sure the LO designers are up to date WRT to the latest developments in radar technology...

Plus ownership of the most comprehensive ELINT database of threat systems and employment of same systems in the world.

The US intel plus what her allies have gathered is merged into US VLO platforms.

 

[barra]

Hi Ozzy,

The possibilities are endless if we get into a hypothetical argument of "this platform can do x when it has y support". In this day and age though all air operations will have AWAC support and the advantage of a TDL. The political fallout of blue on blue engagements is to high for western governments so AWAC support is paramount. Any aircraft in the network will have the same advantage of being directed into a firing position and killing the enemy while remaining totally passive. However I do agree that the combination of TDL and VLO is a more lethal combination.
To me the real advantage of VLO is that it can act without AWAC support, if needed, say on a first day of war scenario and fly downtown into a MEZ and take out high value targets with some degree of survivability.
As for various acronyms you will find that JTIDS, TDLJ, MIDS LVT, FDL and Link-16 are essentially one and the same, they all transmit and recieve J-series messages. The data link world suffers more from the verbal diahorrea of acronym overload worse than other areas. :

Cheers mate