The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Musashi_kenshin]

The only area of actual weakness is an attrition reserve for Frigates & destroyers as has been mentioned here before.

To be honest, we didn't have a reserve during the Falklands War. Ok, we had other ships that weren't in the taskforce, but they wouldn't have been able to contribute if too many ships had been sunk and their prescence was required.

Argentina had one realistic chance to take the islands in 1982 and blew it - it'll have next-to-no chance from now onwards.

 

[Miles]

Members, please keep discussions confined to the Royal Navy and related subjects. Discussion of how RAF aircraft are armed, or how they should be armed, belongs in the a RAF thread in the Military Aviation/Air Force category.
-Preceptor

Can I just point out that the discussion of the Chinook can about from a discussion on using the Osprey from ships, and the search for alternatives.

 

[TimmyC]

There are many examples annually where different nations contribute ships and forces to international training exercises. Whether that be adding a frigate to another nations carrier task force or supplying Marines for a prearranged exercise. National pride and rivalries abound yet when tasked they are expected to get the job done professionally.
Then NATO has its first real large operation in Afghanistan against very real adversaries who want to harm our people and what happens? Certain (European) political parties decide their forces are to be held back. They know they currently have stretched UK forces over a barrel and they're enjoying every month of it.
Being British I'm torn between two wills- Joining an EU state for the greater good & withdrawing completely and washing my hands of the EU.

To the Mods, yes my post was partly political and yes it would probably be better suited to 'general military' but didn't want to read through 18+ threads to find the correct place. There you go.

 

[cak]

do you think that the r.n. is able to mount now an operation similar to the falklands war ?? i mean if the predicted cuts are reality in the short term, in my opinion NO,

Most opinions, on UK retaking the Falklands I have read, say no.
Basically due to the Sea Harrier retiral, lack of capacity for Harriers and poor long, medium air defence. We couldn't get near enough to deploy our, now, improved assault ships. Also if they had more time to prepare and invested in more anit-ship missle and mines.......
Some say 'yes we'd just do it differently', taking Argentinian airbases with tomahawk and reducing the air threat to managable levels.
Fortunately with the loss of the carrier and landing ship and the Typhoon to be deployed at Stanley the Argentinians would find it almost impossible to make a landing in the first place.

 

[riksavage]

Talk of the UK having to ‘retake’ the Falklands is largely superfluous. They are not going to lose the islands in the first place! The surveillance capabilities, new satellites and ground based radar means any ‘sniff’ of Argentinean aggression will cause the UK to activate the already tried and tested contingency plan, namely to reinforce the Islands within 24-hours with enough assets to defend the place against invasion. This will involve the bringing in of the dedicated rapid-response battalion which is on immediate stand-by to move 24-7 (regardless of current Iraq / Afghanistan obligations). Stockpiled assets (artillery and ammunition) are already in place. The UK’s C17 fleet will allow for the rapid transit of at least two reinforced infantry companies, combine this with the assets already on the ground results in the Argies having to bring at least a brigade ashore based on a realistic 3:1 ratio of attacker vs. defender. A 3.1 ratio in opinion is being kind if you compare current UK Infantry Battalions (experience and firepower) to what Argentina has in its current ORBAT (equipment and training basically the same as it was 20 odd years ago).


IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

 

[windscorpion]

Sadly I don't think voters give a damn as long as they can buy cheap stuff in Tesco.

I don't know if anyone saw the Defence Procurement Debate in the Commons yesterday but Robert Key (as in the Tory MP not the cricketer) mentioned Tesco wrt the armed forces needed to get people to appreciate that Tesco is full of things they can buy because the armed forces are there to protect trade and protect the UK. Maybe he reads this forum?

I like his idea of doubling the defence budget.

 

[harryriedl]

I don't know if anyone saw the Defence Procurement Debate in the Commons yesterday but Robert Key (as in the Tory MP not the cricketer) mentioned Tesco wrt the armed forces needed to get people to appreciate that Tesco is full of things they can buy because the armed forces are there to protect trade and protect the UK. Maybe he reads this forum?

I like his idea of doubling the defence budget.

i like it too no we just need Cameron or Liam fox to start talking about it and gaining some publicity's for that plan of doubling the defense budget

[i hope this comment isn't to political ]

 

[overlander]

at present situation with the menace of further cuts in the navy would be wonderful to double the defence budget but in my opinion british politicians are not interested in it whether conservative or labour, long time ago the british armed forces are overstretched and always with the rumours (and the worst is that many times they are true) of further cuts, in my opinion the withdrawal of the sea harrier before than expected and with the excuse of fatigue in the engines and bla bla bla, has been lethal for the R.N.

 

[overlander]

concerning to my previous question i will make it other way, do you consider that with the present situation and the strong rumours oif further cuts the r.n. is able to mount an independent (without the support of the u.s.) medium scale operation in the event of a outbreak of hostilities against british interest or territories worldwide ??? as in the case of the falklands my opinion is NO.

 

[overlander]

it would be interesting to know how is the morale in the british armed forces being overstretched and with the sword of democles of further cuts all time, the only way to reverse this situation is to double the defence budget during at least 10 years, unfortunately i think that for british politicians it is science fiction.

 

[swerve]

it would be interesting to know how is the morale in the british armed forces being overstretched and with the sword of democles of further cuts all time, the only way to reverse this situation is to double the defence budget during at least 10 years, unfortunately i think that for british politicians it is science fiction.

Double? Bumping it up by about 20% & then keeping it at a constant share of GDP should cover the armed forces wish-list.

 

[overlander]

Double? Bumping it up by about 20% & then keeping it at a constant share of GDP should cover the armed forces wish-list.

even this 20 % is science fiction now, the reality is that theres is a contant pressure on the present budget more than for example in the french armed forces althouh they have some problems too but in my opinon they have a better balanced aremd forces and the aeronavale maintains an independent fixed wing fleet air arm not like britain that have scrapped it (sea harriers)

 

[TimmyC]

The French economy is precariously balanced with potential to be in real trouble, certainly more so than the British economy. Due to numerous political / economic reasons. Not least regarding both yet to materialize French labour reforms and expected economic growth outlook within the Euro zone.
The UK treasury has boosted the MOD's budget by 1.5% for the next 3 years only. After that the current very lame party is over. No government has got cash to burn. Which is why the French government has ordered six new Barracuda class SSN's but has only been able to afford to firmly pay for a single 1 as of now, to be reviewed along with PA2 in the yearly part of next year.
Aviation Navale does however have an excellent modern fixed wing air arm, which I'm sure they're duly proud of.
Regarding the RN's ability to successfully carry out a 'medium' naval operation well, the Trafalgar class really are a class act. Can sink anything afloat, and target all but moving targets inland, that's just one asset. Plus, I'm not 100% sure but do reckon the SBS wouldn't mind a quick venture into Tehran, or anywhere/anyone else unlucky enough the government choose to let them loose on.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Timmy makes some good points. At the moment the Royal Navy is guaranteed:

• 6 x Type 45 destroyers (maybe with another 2 ordered later)
• 3 x Astute class submarines, with a fourth building and an order for another 3-4 likely to keep the industry going until work on the Vanguard replacement starts
• 2 x Large aircraft carriers (little chance of it being cancelled now production orders are being placed)

It's also likely new classes of surface ships will be built during the next decade to replace the current frigate fleet.

Compare that to the French Navy. PA2 still isn't certain, nor are all of their future class of SSNs. So far only two Horizon class frigates have been ordered, and it's unlikely more will be purchased. The only good thing going is that 8 FREMM have been ordered, but that will still lead to a large cut in the surface fleet.

 

[harryriedl]

Timmy makes some good points. At the moment the Royal Navy is guaranteed:

• 6 x Type 45 destroyers (maybe with another 2 ordered later)
• 3 x Astute class submarines, with a fourth building and an order for another 3-4 likely to keep the industry going until work on the Vanguard replacement starts
• 2 x Large aircraft carriers (little chance of it being cancelled now production orders are being placed)

It's also likely new classes of surface ships will be built during the next decade to replace the current frigate fleet.

Compare that to the French Navy. PA2 still isn't certain, nor are all of their future class of SSNs. So far only two Horizon class frigates have been ordered, and it's unlikely more will be purchased. The only good thing going is that 8 FREMM have been ordered, but that will still lead to a large cut in the surface fleet.

also the JSF order is ring fenced so at lest 138 planes will be ordered [hopefully more than 138 will be ordered their in that order book of aircraft ordered file that popped up a couple of weeks ago].

also Lusty has been at quite a tempo recently Easent Europe USA, Croatia
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=121209&page=2

 

[neil]

thnx for the pics

any harriers embarked on illustrious for this excercise?

also please explain about the F35b order being ringfenced at 138 planes..

this would be great news!

 

[harryriedl]

any harriers embarked on illustrious for this excercise?

also please explain about the F35b order being ringfenced at 138 planes..

this would be great news!

nope no UK harriers but French and Italian harries

old but reliable source

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f35-joint-strike-fighter-program-uk-update-02001
'At present, Britain is slated to buy 150 F-35B STOVL (Short Take-Off, Vertical Landing)'

it being Ring fences came from a comment which i saw in last weeks Saturday telagraph

 

[neil]

i believe that uk harriers were embarked on the duty royal navy carrier that was sent to afghanistan during the opening stages of operation enduring freedom..

my question.. why did no uk harrier join in the opening raids or in fact any raids during that stage of the operation?

i am not absolutely certain.. but i believe that the italian harriers did indeed join in these raids from the garribaldi using coalition refuelling assets.. please correct me if i am wrong..

in fact when was the last time uk harriers flew combat ops from a carrier in a coalition environment? bosnia?

the fact that no uk harriers were embarked during the last cruises by hms illustrious to me points to a serious problem in the uk harrier force..

i know the naval strike wing is currently deployed in afghanistan but what if a national contingency required a strike capable carrier, say next week? i doubt the italians or americans would be drawn in to a falklands like operation.. they would probably refuse the uk the use of their harrier squadrons..

also the fact that 801 naval air squadron has not officially been stood up due to lack of pilot attack instructors leads me to believe that the uk harrier force is indeed under resourced and although they are doing sterling work in afghanistan as i type this.. it reeks of a bit of a hollow force..

how can a fleet of 70 odd planes only sustain a single 11 plane squadron on operations in afghanistan and then not have the capacity to deploy only six or so aircraft on a carrier in an excercise?

i know i touched on a lot of points here.. any thoughts would be appreciated..

 

[overlander]

i believe that uk harriers were embarked on the duty royal navy carrier that was sent to afghanistan during the opening stages of operation enduring freedom..

my question.. why did no uk harrier join in the opening raids or in fact any raids during that stage of the operation?

i am not absolutely certain.. but i believe that the italian harriers did indeed join in these raids from the garribaldi using coalition refuelling assets.. please correct me if i am wrong..

in fact when was the last time uk harriers flew combat ops from a carrier in a coalition environment? bosnia?

the fact that no uk harriers were embarked during the last cruises by hms illustrious to me points to a serious problem in the uk harrier force..

i know the naval strike wing is currently deployed in afghanistan but what if a national contingency required a strike capable carrier, say next week? i doubt the italians or americans would be drawn in to a falklands like operation.. they would probably refuse the uk the use of their harrier squadrons..

also the fact that 801 naval air squadron has not officially been stood up due to lack of pilot attack instructors leads me to believe that the uk harrier force is indeed under resourced and although they are doing sterling work in afghanistan as i type this.. it reeks of a bit of a hollow force..

how can a fleet of 70 odd planes only sustain a single 11 plane squadron on operations in afghanistan and then not have the capacity to deploy only six or so aircraft on a carrier in an excercise?

i know i touched on a lot of points here.. any thoughts would be appreciated..

simply because the lack of planes, i think some of them they are mothballed , so it would be no strange for me that when the 2 new carriers are finished only 1 will be operational with the other in reserve/refit, this is the british defence policy but if some day some crisis erupts somewhere in the world against british territories or interests i think there are not the enough force to fight, there are so many savings, mothballings, etc in the british armed forces that i am not sure the capacity of response of british conventional forces against a crisis without the american participation. an example is the withdrawal of sea harriers, a good fighter very important as naval air defence cover in an operation and now gone with the ridiculous escuse of engine fatigue, i know that manu people in this forum consider me as too pessimistic but i don,t see a ballanced defence policy, in my opinion would be far more cost effective to build only 1 cvf carrier and 2 LHD similar to french mistral and tonnerre but larger size something like 30000 tonnes and 240 m. lenght more polivalent ships and able to embark at least 10-15 f-35 fighters and at the same time to embark a powerful force of at least 1500 marines as well as tanks and weapons. i hope to be in a mistake but maybe we see the future 2 carriers without all the potential they can deliver, we will see.

 

[kato]

in fact when was the last time uk harriers flew combat ops from a carrier in a coalition environment? bosnia?

HMS Invincible was deployed with seven Sea Harrier FA2 in the Kosovo War, 1999. Operated from the Ionian Sea, Harriers flew 102 CAP sorties while Sea Kings delivered humanitarian aid in Albania.