Can singapore hold its own?

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Schumacher

New Member
dude its a defend satelite...
and btw theres one more coming by the name of 'RAHMAT' if im not mistaken...
its publish everywhere in malaysian news papers...
it is said to be launch at the end of 2008
and it is for geographical something and for the malaysian defends that goes the same for the tiungsat-1.....
to be honest with you if by space technology malaysia is better than singapore....
malaysia will be the first country in south east asia to send and astronout at space k!
U really should elaborate more on this M'sia sat as was asked of u in the previously post. Definitely much more than just saying it's a 'defend satelite' to explain to others how u arrive at your conclusion.
Not that Malaysians don't have a reason to be proud but I don't see how hitching a ride on a Russian rocket can say much abt the nation's space tech.
There're many space tourists nowadays. Dogs & monkeys have hitched rides to space long ago. Does that say something abt the animal kingdom's space tech ? :)
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
Personally, no Malaysian is concerned about Singapore's Military Superiority. Paskal is just being trucculent, so the sniping on this, is about as useful as yesterday's news. It's all pie in the sky.

An arms race in the region, will never benefit the Island State. Everyone knows that.

If anything, we Malaysians ae just happy to spend the minimal on keeping all battalions, brigades, and divisions, under strengthed but highly trained and schooled in other aspects of warfare, rather than all out conventional war.

It's easy to lie back and pile on the rhetoric on how the SAF would "grease its tank treads with dead Malaysians", but hogwash will always remain just that.

The Singaporeans do not have the capability for a long drawn out conflict, a war of attrition, or even anti guerilla warfare. It is a third rate force with first class toys.
 

Transient

Member
An arms race in the region, will never benefit the Island State. Everyone knows that.
An arms race benefits no one. But it'll bankrupt Malaysia long before Singapore. Everybody knows that.

It is a third rate force with first class toys.
Third rate force according to the Ignorant.
 

gary1910

New Member
Singapore in term of satellite for military uses is the most advanced in the whole SEA.

As I said before, Paskal just got all his info from local forum without doing much research elsewhere.

I only bits and pieces abt SG sat development, so I will give a brief summary:

Singapore has for years involved in the development of Israeli Ofeq series Military satellites by funding them, and I believe making use of them for our own uses,as they pass over SG.

Singapore has also their own research labs on satellites and has already sent a number of satellites up plus the building our own sat, possibly with Israeli technology for hi res imaging.

Then there is joint developement lab setup in France etc.

So SG on the development of our own military standard satellites are ongoing on many fronts and expected to launch our own locally design military standard sat very soon.

So in reality, no one in SEA is as advanced as SG.
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
If you say so. It still means Singapore would remain committed to it's own confines and would not entertain any notions of "lebensraum".

So I am glad you agree, Singapore will remain small and unimportant relative to its neighbours. Thanks
 

gary1910

New Member
Personally, no Malaysian is concerned about Singapore's Military Superiority. Paskal is just being trucculent, so the sniping on this, is about as useful as yesterday's news. It's all pie in the sky.

An arms race in the region, will never benefit the Island State. Everyone knows that.

If anything, we Malaysians ae just happy to spend the minimal on keeping all battalions, brigades, and divisions, under strengthed but highly trained and schooled in other aspects of warfare, rather than all out conventional war.

It's easy to lie back and pile on the rhetoric on how the SAF would "grease its tank treads with dead Malaysians", but hogwash will always remain just that.

The Singaporeans do not have the capability for a long drawn out conflict, a war of attrition, or even anti guerilla warfare. It is a third rate force with first class toys.
:eek:nfloorl:

In your very first post here in this thread , you have already admitted that SAF is capable of marching all the way to KL, that means you know and acknowledge the vast superiority of SAF over MAF in term of quality as well as quantity.

So if SAF is a third rate force with first class toys, then how would you rate MAF? Rubbish?

How contradictory!!!

Next is if SAF is already in KL , that means that SAF has crushed MAF in the conventional war, so what left for MY is by insurgency & guerilla tactics to counter SAF?

The problem is, what make you think that SAF would stay long enough for such insurgency groups to be established?

As LKY said and I try to quote him :
We do not want to go to war with anybody. What for? But we must be able to inflict a very high price ... and then go to the UN.
Any conflict today, eventually UN will intervene, 2ndly SAF is a conscript army , so it is not holding force, but at least we will create a buffer zone.

The question now is, what did he mean by inflicting a very high price?

RSAF has more than 100+ BVR capable fighters, so the ratio in term quantity over is not just 2:1, more like 3:1~4:1 and I am not even have to talk abt quality of RSAF over RMAF.

So it is not matter whether RSAF will achieve air superiority over RMAF , but rather when will it achieve air superiority?

With a large number of SEAD capable F-16D Blk52/52+, plus soon to be introduced 12 most advanced F-15SG, RSAF is more than capable of inflicting a large amount of damage via airstrikes especially when it already achieve air superiority!!!

My guess is at the minimum, SAF will decimated the entire MAF, so to eliminate the military threat against SG for minimum a decade or so, and if we want even longer time for MY to recover, we may even target economical structures.

So in reality, your insurgency & guerilla tactics does not really come into play, not for long anyway, a cease fire will be brokered by the UN, a buffer zone may be created in Johor etc.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Care to explain SAF superiority?
at an aviation level:

superior ewarfare at an aviation level - 350km range with 250 concurrent processing interrogations through AWACs capability - and have used AWACs for a number of years
organic jamming at a fixed wing combat level (weasels)
developed own phased array solutions for skimmers - tied into air grid
depth of strike capability

the top 3 mean that they can work at a package level - in other words they can render notional enemies electronically blind and prosecute at the same time.

all forces are networked - ie they operate at a systems level
highly regarded SIGINT - superior to Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and Sth Korea
highly respected operators when in DACT

there's nothing wrong with being proud. hubris is another thing altogether
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
Again, that answers the original question asked. Singapore can hold it's own, but it cannot wage a long drawn out protracted conflict.

And then someone added that the UN would broker some form of peace, if ever those scenarios play out. Delusions continue to pile up.

Singapore is small, Conscripts are poor quality soldiers, and you can have all the hi tech, but when the forces are broken by attrition, you expect the Singaporeans to be able to create Buffer Zones????

Singapore is a small Island State. Insignicant to Malaysia. Spend all the money on the hardware, just know this, the small state will always be that. Admin: Text deleted. Its fine to make comment. Its not fine to continue to be disrespectful. Please read the rules about posting standards before responding again.
 

gary1910

New Member
If you say so. It still means Singapore would remain committed to it's own confines and would not entertain any notions of "lebensraum".

So I am glad you agree, Singapore will remain small and unimportant relative to its neighbours. Thanks
Yes, SG is the only developed nation in SEA and the rest of the third world nations are more important.:eek:nfloorl:

Please continue with your nationalistic BS, I am sure many will be refuting you , neutral or otherwise.
 

wzhtg

New Member
re

Paskal, since when was TiungSat-1 a defence satellite?


TiungSat-1 is Malaysia's first micro-satellite and in addition to commercial land and weather imaging payloads offers FM and FSK amateur radio communication. Construction cost: RM28 million The satellite is for the BKSA (Bahagian Kajian Sains Angkasa, the Space Science Studies Div. under the Ministry of Science, Technology and Environment).


Also, could you give some details of this Rahmat satellite you are talking about? The only Malaysian satellites I heard of are the one above and MESAT 1 to 3 which are commercial satellites.

I share the others's view on the subject that sending a astronaunt into space doesn't indicates anything about Malaysia's satellite capabilities.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
Singapore is small, Conscripts are poor quality soldiers, and you can have all the hi tech, but when the forces are broken by attrition, you expect the Singaporeans to be able to create Buffer Zones????

Singapore is a small Island State. Insignicant to Malaysia. Spend all the money on the hardware, just know this, the small state will always be that. ...
Errrr - perhaps someone should ask the Red Army of 1939-40 about whether Finnish conscripts were poor quality soldiers, or ask the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians & Iraqis whether Israeli conscripts are poor quality soldiers. Perhaps someone should also ask what Israeli victories say about the idea that the geographical extent of a state makes it militarily insignificant (come to that, consider the size of England, & the extent of the British Empire at its peak), or that attrition is necessarily going to be a factor weighing against Singapore.

Mr. Ignorant, are you attempting to justify your nom de plume? :D
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
Swerve,

Thanks. I believe I have justified my Nom de Plume :cool:

I shall continue in ignorance, and hopefully my questions may be answered. I don't believe Singapore has the ability to wage conflicts for any considerable period. I hope I am convinced otherwise.

Cheers

Mr Ignorant who is Ignorant :p:
 

paskal

New Member
Paskal, since when was TiungSat-1 a defence satellite?


TiungSat-1 is Malaysia's first micro-satellite and in addition to commercial land and weather imaging payloads offers FM and FSK amateur radio communication. Construction cost: RM28 million The satellite is for the BKSA (Bahagian Kajian Sains Angkasa, the Space Science Studies Div. under the Ministry of Science, Technology and Environment).


Also, could you give some details of this Rahmat satellite you are talking about? The only Malaysian satellites I heard of are the one above and MESAT 1 to 3 which are commercial satellites.

I share the others's view on the subject that sending a astronaunt into space doesn't indicates anything about Malaysia's satellite capabilities.
tiungsat-1 is also for the defence industry:)
measat-1 and measat-2 is different......
http://www.asmmag.com/ASM/content/2003/ASM_002/ASM_002.html
malaysia said it wanna launch the new satelite at around 2006 but it got delayed andwill be launch in 2008.check the website.
 

paskal

New Member
Errrr - perhaps someone should ask the Red Army of 1939-40 about whether Finnish conscripts were poor quality soldiers, or ask the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians & Iraqis whether Israeli conscripts are poor quality soldiers. Perhaps someone should also ask what Israeli victories say about the idea that the geographical extent of a state makes it militarily insignificant (come to that, consider the size of England, & the extent of the British Empire at its peak), or that attrition is necessarily going to be a factor weighing against Singapore.

Mr. Ignorant, are you attempting to justify your nom de plume? :D
israel is fully back up by the us defence industry and is around 10x stronger than their oppenent:p:
but if it goes to singapore and malaysia it is quite different....
i will be honest singapore got better gund than malaysia....:cool:
but if there is an invasion i dont thinksingapore can comeout at the top:D
malaysia bought alltheir weapons mainly for defence not for attacking.
malaysia has a good advantage in jungle warfare while singapore is mainly train in urban warefare.....
malaysia has better quality and proffesional trained troops while singapore is mainly NS man.....
malaytsia also has better special forces than singapore like the paskau that has the similar abilities like the israelis commandos that help to destroy syria nuclear cappibilities,paskal and ggk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paskal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PASKAU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerup_gerak_khas

they all are the ones responsible for trainig the americans in jungle warfare:cool:
 

wzhtg

New Member
re

Erm...Paskal I assume the article you were refering to is this.
MACRES Future

Dato Nic Nasruddin Mahmood, head of the Malaysian Centre for Remote Sensing (MACRES), used October's MapAsia conference to outline his ambitious plans for MACRES. If Nasruddin's aims are achieved, MACRES will be a major player in remote sensing.
Malaysia has adopted a step-by-step approach to increasing the nation's spatial skills. The first step was to set up MACRES and then learn how to acquire, process and use data from space-based sensors. 'In order to use remote sensing data, you need to understand all aspects of the processing chain,' he said. Starting with a simple Landsat receiving station, MACRES now acquires data from a large number of satellites, include Ikonos-1 and Radarsat-1.
The second step is to contribute to the space industry. In 2000, the Malaysians launched TiungSat-1, their first satellite. They plan to build a constellation of Earth-observing satellites for launch after 2006. At the same time, the Malaysians are looking at deploying some airborne sensors, including a synthetic aperture radar and a hyperspectral imager. The National Remote Sensing committee, as part of the National Remote Sensing Program, is directing all these activities. MACRES provides a secretariat service for the committee.
Nasruddin told the conference that this effort is all part of moves to establish society in a more sophisticated fashion (what on earth does this mean?). It is certainly the case that developing the remote sensing industry is another step towards a knowledge economy. But more importantly, the use of remote sensing - in the management of natural resources and disasters, for instance - has the capacity to enrich society immensely.

* However from what i see, this doesn't show anything about it being a defense satellite. It's more of a satellite to for enviromental/climate studies unless you have something more to show me. I did however find an interesting aticle in today's the star newspaper about malaysia's satellite developments which i have included below.




Striking out in new frontiers

NOT all Malaysian satellites are imported from technologically sophisticated countries. For the last 10 years, a Malaysian company has been designing and manufacturing its own space craft.
They may be smaller than those designed by the advanced countries but Astronautic Technology (M) Sdn Bhd, a Government-owned entity, has the technology and expertise to develop its own satellites.
It has even gone into exporting satellites components to countries such as South Africa and Germany,x and has proposed to Egypt to launch a moon-sighting satellite.
“We have been invited to submit a proposal on space satellite development for the overseas market. So we have the competency and are recognised as a country that develops space systems for export,” said ATSB managing director/chief executive officer Datuk Ahmad Sabirin Arshad.
ATSB was established in 1997 to propel Malaysia into the group of nations with space satellite technologies. Among its achievements are the design, development, launch and operation of Malaysia’s first micro-satellite TiungSat-1, in collaboration with Britain’s Surrey Satellite Technology.
The 50kg satellite, launched from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Khazakhstan in 2000, provides Malaysia information on earth resources, land use and environmental haze pollution, as well as weather patterns.
Its facility in Glenmarie, Shah Alam is where the RazakSat – Malaysia's second satellite for Earth observation – was built. The satellite is to be launched next year.
Small wonder: Ahmad Sabirin holding up the Pico satellite and electronic board fitted into the satellite, which is a set the company produces.
ATSB's other projects are tsunami early warning systems, robotic telescope, vigilant systems and dosimeter satellite (an in-house, small spacecraft programme for new engineers to learn about satellites).
Ahmad Sabirin said that years ago, many Malaysians did not know much about satellites.
“When they thought of satellites, they thought of the satellite dish or Measat. But while Measat is operating a satellite, we build them locally,” said Ahmad Sabirin, who was part of the first Measat engineering team.
Holding up a Pico satellite or cube set on his palm, Ahmad Sabirin showed how simple a satellite could be.
‘Malaysia Boleh’: A model of the RazakSat satellite manufactured by Astronautic Technology (M) Sdn Bhd. ATSB aims to be the Southeast Asian leader in small satellites.
The cube set, which is used for engineering technology demonstration and moon sighting, is being used by ATSB to show university students how to make their own satellites.
“We want them to get interested in space technology. The set can incorporate different electronic boards according to the purpose of the satellite,” he said.
ATSB has 60% of the technology know-how for space satellite manufacturing, including mechanical, electronics, electrical and control system development.
What it lacks are the star tracker (the star map which tells the exact position of the satellite in space) and propulsion system. These are controlled items by manufacturing countries such as the United States due to their dual applications of space and military technology.
“Our aim is to develop these capabilities ourselves as our own intellectual property. Then we will have a comprehensive capability to build our satellite systems,” he said.
For Ahmad Sabirin, it not an impossible aim.
He said Malaysia saved a lot of money building its own satellites.
“A satellite like the RazakSat costs us 10% of what our neighbouring country had to pay because while we build it ourselves. They buy them,” he said.
Since its inception in 1997, ATSB has invested RM200mil in research and development. It has managed to be self-sustaining, with positive cash flow, steady revenue flow and increased yearly profits, he said.
From a company that started off with a few staff members, it now has about 100.
With its experience in the TiungSat and RazakSat projects, it is fitting that ATSB has been appointed project manager for the Angkasawan programme, to handle all logistics activities, which is a crucial part of the project.
This includes logistics aspects in the two Malaysian astronauts' training in Nasa and the Yuri Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Centre in Star City in Russia, the launching at Baikonur Cosmodrome on Oct 10, the Soyuz spacecraft's docking at the International Space Station (ISS) two days later and the landing.
ATSB's task also covers media coverage, the astronaut's communication with Earth, landing activities, the astronaut's inauguration afterwards and safe return of the astronaut and the Malaysian team's return to the country.
The Malaysian Angkasawan will land on Oct 21 and be transferred to Moscow after being quarantined for health checks.
“We provide engineering support for the scientific experiments the astronaut will conduct in space. We built the hardware to conform to ISS standards,” he said, adding that ATSB collaborated with other international space agencies including NASA, European Space Agency and Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency.
Ahmad Sabirin added that ATSB had to deal with the strict Russian Customs and had to pay for every service and tax.
Cosmonauts’ Alley tradition: Dr Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor, Malaysia’s soon-to-be astronaut, planting a sapling in Baikonur recently.
Another problem was the limited access to Baikonur Cosmodrome, a military area. “The number of people allowed entry to the area to watch the launch 'live' will be limited. However, it will be broadcast live for Malaysians to watch,” he said.
He said that although ATSB's focus was on satellite technology and not the entire spectrum of space activities, Malaysia had done well in space technology as a leading nation in Asia.
ATSB aims to be the South-East Asian leader in small satellites like the 180kg RazakSat. Satellites weighing less than 500kg are regarded as small.
But it is lonely up there.
Ahmad Sabirin said he hoped more Malaysian companies in space technology would be set up.
He said space technology application worldwide was only at 15% of the total market, and there was still 85% growth.
 

paskal

New Member
yeah youre right about that all:)
btw sorry by giving the new satelite the wrong name:p:
for the new coming satelite and the tiungsat-1 it can still be used for the defence industry.....
it is a microsatelite that can see enemy forces and also do some geografhical work.
it goes different to malaysia measat-1 and two that the main purpose is for tvs and astro...:D
 
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Incognito129

Banned Member
Singapore is roughly the size of NYC. There's no way you can win when all they gotta do is bomb one city. You can shove all the damn anti-whatever systems in the world into singapore, its still going down.
 

Distiller

New Member
Have not read thru *all* the pages of this thread, but as I see it there are three threat scenarios (speaking of limited war here, not Japan-WW2 all-out war):

# Refugees. Hundreds of thousands, caused by some war in the vicinity. Such a flood would be a real problem. A threat to national stability and security.

# Ballistic Missiles. Launched by China, maybe others. THAAD or Aegis BMD could be an interesting option for Singapore. Ballistic SS missiles (with conventional warheads) are annoying and PR-magnets, but the warfighting value is rather limited, cause short range launchers would be in range of the air force, and the big stuff is too rare/expensive.

# Naval Blockade. By China of course. That long-range strike capability you see employed by Singapore are targeting such a scenario. It is vital for Singapore to keep the sea lanes open. Saying that, they could use some more ASW assets.

Outright invasion would be a threat only in a WW2-style war I think.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Singapore is roughly the size of NYC. There's no way you can win when all they gotta do is bomb one city. You can shove all the damn anti-whatever systems in the world into singapore, its still going down.
Not necessarily. Singapore can render blind deaf and dumb any combination of her neighbours comms and ewarfare systems. That puts her on a more even footing, and cuts down the engagement options for any attacker.

Singapores relationship with Israel shows in the sense that her force structure and procurement recognises that she can't win any war of attrition. She has to dislocate, decapitate and dismember her enemies capacity to wage modern warfare. Her entire force structure reflects that.

On another note, I'm unaware of any of her neighbours having ground penetrators - and any notional enemy will need them if they think that its a done deal.
 
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