The Spanish Navy - Armada Española

contedicavour

New Member
Waiting for the Gladius answer, the SM-2 would be launched from the current Mk-13, in the same way that the upgraded Adelaide will do.
Thks. So it does make sense after all to keep the Mk13 for SM2-MR even if I imagine range is severly restricted without more modern illuminators.
We (in Italy) really should consider this update for the De la Penne then, if both Spain and Australia are going down this route.

cheers
 

Gladius

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #62
Santi said:
Waiting for the Gladius answer, the SM-2 would be launched from the current Mk-13, in the same way that the upgraded Adelaide will do.
Thks. So it does make sense after all to keep the Mk13 for SM2-MR even if I imagine range is severly restricted without more modern illuminators.
We (in Italy) really should consider this update for the De la Penne then, if both Spain and Australia are going down this route.
cheers
I'm here. :D

Well, Santi is right. Our Navy is sending signals on that course. The launcher Mk-13 mod 4, would be retained for the SM-2MR & Harpoons. This plan would be linked with the upgrade of the FCS Mk-92 Mod 6 installed in the Navarra (F-85) & Canarias (F-86). It's not a solution of "Aegis level" but for second tier frigates with only ten to fifteen years to go, may be a sufficient solution.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I'm here. :D

Well, Santi is right. Our Navy is sending signals on that course. The launcher Mk-13 mod 4, would be retained for the SM-2MR & Harpoons. This plan would be linked with the upgrade of the FCS Mk-92 Mod 6 installed in the Navarra (F-85) & Canarias (F-86). It's not a solution of "Aegis level" but for second tier frigates with only ten to fifteen years to go, may be a sufficient solution.
I guess I'll have to email my country's navy then ;)
Any clue on how much it costs to upgrade Mk13 and FCS Mk92 to launch SM2s ? Our 2 destroyers still have 15-20 hull life left and since our navy doesn't want to bother to install Aster 15/30 on them we need to join the upgrade programme the Spanish navy is doing...

cheers
 

Gladius

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #64
And the serial around the sixth F-100 continues...

The past week our AJEMA, the Admiral Zaragoza Soto repeat the navy claims for the sixth ship of the F-100 class. And now is the turn of our Defense Minister Jose Antonio Alonso to comment about "the good disposition of the government" for the F-106 and the guarantee of workload for the next decade for the Shipyards of Navantia:

Alonso explain the "positive disposition" to the construction of the sixth frigate F-100 in Ferrol.

12:52h - July 10th, 2007.
E.P. Ferrol (Galicia)


The minister of Defense guarantees "without doubt" the workload in Navantia for the next decade.
Claims managements to achieve that situation continue being "guaranteed for
ever".


The minister of Defense, José Antonio Alonso, expressed today the "clearly positive disposition" so that the construction of the sixth frigate F-100 go to the shipyards of Ferrol, but recognized that, for the moment, does not be able "compromise time frames or conditions". "The Government works many fronts", justified.

The past month of February, the leader of the Executive José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, showed to the president of the Xunta, Emilio Pérez Touriño, its will to study this possibility. Now Alonso declared today in Ferrol that the "disposition is clearly positive to develop the project in Navantia", although insisted that the forecasts lack "time frames or conditions".

Thus, it recalled that the Government negotiates at present the covenant subscribed with Australia for the construction of five ships, two of them in Galicia, by a value over 1.500 million € and assured that the load of work in Navantia is "guaranteed without doubt" for the next decade. "And we work so that continue it being for ever", asserted.

In this sense, the minister declared that the "political" of Defense in this matter "he passes for the full transformation and modernization" of the Armed Forces and he added that in this objective he is situated the "enlargement of the operating instruments of the Navy" with the construction of frigates and ships to incorporate the state troops.
Link to the Spanish version of the article, published by "El Correo Gallego" newspaper.
 

Gladius

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #65
More news about the ships being built for the Spanish Navy. This time will be the Buque de Aprovisionamiento de Combate (BAC) Cantabria (A-15).

Navantia lay the keel for the BAC "Cantabria".

In the shipyard of Puerto Real (Cádiz). The ship will be delivered to the Spanish Navy in December of 2008.

Revista Naval - July 19th, 2007.

To the act attended the director of the shipyard, Enrique Rodriguez Segura, and the Admiral of the Arsenal of La Carraca, José Francisco Serón, accompanied by the leader of the program of the BAC, Engineer Captain Salvador Vila (Spanish Navy).

The module placed yesterday in the yard is composed of five blocks, totalling 600 tons of weight on the whole, and reaching a high level of termination.

From now to the launch to sea of the ship, predicted for the month of February of the next year, the works of assembly and union of the thirteen modules that form the hull and superstructures of the "Cantabria" will be carried out.
Link to the Spanish version of the article published by Revista Naval.

Photo © Navantia.
 

Gladius

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #66
Some news from Spain. :)

The new Spanish Navy Guidelines - 2007, have been published some days ago.

The document of 24 pages made by the Spanish Navy and signed by the Admiral Zaragoza Soto, is mainly a continuation of the objectives and plans already presented in the Spanish Navy Guidelines - 2004, although introduce the adaptations of procedure caused by the last reform of the Spanish Armed Forces.

A very simplified resume of the objectives, programs and acquisitions procurements to short-mid term included in the document:


- Common to Navy and Marine Infantry:

· Reaching the 100% of manpower of Troop & Sailors level. (10.300 sailors & 4.800 Marines).

· Improving the conditions of life and work to raise the level of retention.

· Maintain the desired level of operating capacity and to continue the distant deployments and exercises with real fire to maintain as high as possible the levels of training and efficacy.

· Continuing the refinement of the Navy organization to improve the efficacy and simplification of its structures.


- Navy:

· Continuing the development of the national Combat System "SCOMBA" and the national Underwater Remote Search System "SIRAMICOR".

· Continuing the development of the national AIP System for the S-80A.

· Continuing the implementation of the Maritime Action HQ.

· Culmination of the Phase II of the F-100 program: Frigates F-105 (now in construction) and F-106 (waiting final Cabinet approval).

· Completing the BPE program: LHD Juan Carlos I (now in construction) and to proceed to decommission the two ageing LSTs Newport class (L-41 Hernán Cortés & L-42 Pizarro).

· Continuing the S-80A program: With the objective to maintain a submarine fleet of 8 units after the commission of the S-80s.

· Continuing the Phase II of the BAM program: With the Phase I already in execution at this moment (4 ships "Patrol Version" ordered to Navantia Shipyard). The Phase II would comprise another six ships "Patrol Version". Also inside the BAM Program is on study the renewal of the hydrographic ships, submarine rescue & salvage vessel, ship of intelligence, light transport ships, trawlers and ship of support to the oceanographic investigation.

· Completing the AOR Program: Finish and commission the AOR "Cantabria" (now in construction by Navantia Shipyards) and then decommission the Fleet Oiler "Marqués de la Ensenada" (A-11).

· Completing the LCM-1E program: LCM-112 to LCM-114 (now in construction) to complete the projected 14 LCMs and retire the older LCM-8s.

· Start the integration of the Tomahawk missiles: The Tomahawk will be integrated in the F-100 Class and the new AIP submarines S-80A (already ordered to Navantia Shipyards).

· Start the UAV & USV acquisitions: Undisclosed model at this time.


- Spanish Navy Air Fleet (FLOAN).

· Continuing with the Phase I of the program NH-90: 11 NH-90 ordered for the Navy (one of those to serve as prototype for the AEW version). Another 17 NH-90 are planned to be ordered in the Phase II.

· Start the renovation process of the Harrier AV-8B+ fleet by the F-35B: Project intended to be undertaken jointly with the Spanish Air Force.


- Marine Infantry:

· Completing the Piranha Program: Acquisition and reception of the second series of Piranha III vehicles.

· Start of the VAAMTAC* Program: Reception of VAAMTACs for the MArine Infantry to replace or complement the Hummers in service.

· Continuing with the SPIKE Program: Reception of the SPIKE-LR destined to the Marine Infantry. (The Phase I now in execution ordered 260 launchers & 2600 missiles for the Spanish Army and Marine Infantry. The planed Phase II would add another 84 launchers & 840 missiles)


*: The VAAMTAC is and undisclosed vehicle at this moment. Is known that there are some political interests pressuring the Navy and the Marine Infantry to make an acquisition of Rebecos (Uro VAMTAC) identical to the models in service with the Spanish Army, but at this moment the vehicle of Urovesa has not surpassed the hard tests of the Spanish Marines. Moreover they are demanding more hummers and rejecting the Rebecos for years. In this situation instead of including the designation: "VAMTAC" (Vehículo de Alta Movilidad TÁCtica - Vehicle of High Tactical Mobility) the document included the denomination "VAAMTAC" (Vehículo Anfibio de Alta Movilidad TÁCtica - Amphibious Vehicle of High Tactical Mobility) seems to indicate that is a matter of a new version especially modified of the Rebeco (something to what Urovesa denied to do until now) or maybe means the Navy intentions to acquire more Hummers. We will see...

Link to the Spanish Navy Guidelines - 2007. (Spanish Version - PDF Format).

Edited to add an alternative link if the put above have any problem or the connection is too slow:

Alternate link to the Spanish Navy Guidelines - 2007. (Spanish Version - PDF Format).
 
Last edited:

contedicavour

New Member
Very interesting. First time I read about official interest for F35B and a AEW version of NH90. Both choices are logical but bizarrely so far they were only in rumours.

cheers
 

Gladius

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #68
contedicavour said:
Very interesting. First time I read about official interest for F35B and a AEW version of NH90. Both choices are logical but bizarrely so far they were only in rumours.
Umm.

The Spanish Navy announced its intentions to develop the version AEW of the NH-90 since the moment in which this helicopter was selected for the Spanish Armed Forces. In fact since Spain ordered the first batch of 45 helicopters (25-May-2005) and was confirmed that the Navy share (11 of those 45). It was make public that one helo would be destined to serve as prototype and test helo for all the systems in development for the Spanish NMP (Naval Multi-Porpouse) variant & AEW/ASaC (Airborne Early Warning/Airborne Surveillance & Control) variant. This data was published in the old Spanish Navy website two years ago.

The issue with the F-35B is different. Until this last document the Spanish Navy had ruled out an acquisition of F-35B in the short-term. Also is well known the Spanish Air Force opinion about the JSF and is not a good one.
The document Spanish Navy Guidelines 2007, is the first indication of a possible common acquisition of F-35 by the Air Force and the Navy in the medium-term. But AFAIK all about the F-35 for Spain is in the preliminary stages.
 

European

New Member
NH-90 AEW?

There is the bigger medium-heavy, more capable and already developed AW-101 HEW, why to spent money for a medium-light helicopter HEW?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
With the F-35's is there a new ship to operate them? Or the Juan? I know F-35B's for Australia are an interesting point of debate. If spain intends to operate them from the LHD then it may make it a more legitimate argument and possibly an additional LHD may be sought (hypothetical).
 

Gladius

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #71
NH-90 AEW?

There is the bigger medium-heavy, more capable and already developed AW-101 HEW, why to spent money for a medium-light helicopter HEW?
Spain is different... :D

The main "public" reason is the Spanish Armed Forces helo standardization process with the NH-90 imposed by the R.E.D. (Strategic Defence Review). That is 104 NH-90 (Army: 48 + Navy: 28 + Air Force: 28).

The helo fleet of the Navy is planed to be formed by: 12 SH-60 + 28 NH-90 (TTH, NMP & AEW/ASaC) + 10-12 light helos (still undecided model to replace the ageing MD-500s).

The Spanish Navy will have NH-90s. So if the Navy wanted to maintain the AEW/ASaC capacity, it was indispensable to develop the NH90AEW variant. Is that or nothing. Spain won't buy the Anglo-Italian AW-101 by Government decision.

StingrayOZ said:
With the F-35's is there a new ship to operate them? Or the Juan? I know F-35B's for Australia are an interesting point of debate. If spain intends to operate them from the LHD then it may make it a more legitimate argument and possibly an additional LHD may be sought (hypothetical).
The Príncipe de Asturias (R-11) is not (and won't be) F-35B capable. So until the replacement of the R-11 be built, the F-35B should be operated from the LHD Juan Carlos I.
 

Ligreton

New Member
Start the renovation process of the Harrier AV-8B+ fleet by the F-35B: Project intended to be undertaken jointly with the Spanish Air Force.
Esta es la mayor novedad creo yo... EdA con F35s, primera noticia de este tipo.

Spanish Air Force maybe with F35s?!?
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Spain is different... :D

The main "public" reason is the Spanish Armed Forces helo standardization process with the NH-90 imposed by the R.E.D. (Strategic Defence Review). That is 104 NH-90 (Army: 48 + Navy: 28 + Air Force: 28).

The helo fleet of the Navy is planed to be formed by: 12 SH-60 + 28 NH-90 (TTH, NMP & AEW/ASaC) + 10-12 light helos (still undecided model to replace the ageing MD-500s).

The Spanish Navy will have NH-90s. So if the Navy wanted to maintain the AEW/ASaC capacity, it was indispensable to develop the NH90AEW variant. Is that or nothing. Spain won't buy the Anglo-Italian AW-101 by Government decision.



The Príncipe de Asturias (R-11) is not (and won't be) F-35B capable. So until the replacement of the R-11 be built, the F-35B should be operated from the LHD Juan Carlos I.
thats interesting on PdA under no circumstances will be able to operated the F35B dose that mean GG won't be able to operate F35B so Cavor and Juan Carlos will be the only F35B capable ships
 

European

New Member
thats interesting on PdA under no circumstances will be able to operated the F35B dose that mean GG won't be able to operate F35B so Cavor and Juan Carlos will be the only F35B capable ships
PdA, Invincible, Shakri and GG are not able to operate JSF because it has a high weight for the elevators of this 'old' aircraft carriers.

In the future, Cavour, JCI, Aussies new LHD, Uk CVF, Doko (S.Korea) and DDG16 (Japan) will be able to operate the stovl JSF due to the necessary elevators.
 

Gladius

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #76
Esta es la mayor novedad creo yo... EdA con F35s, primera noticia de este tipo.

Spanish Air Force maybe with F35s?!?
Verdaderamente chocante, y ciertamente las primeras palabras "oficiales" sobre futuros JSF en el Ejército del Aire.

Truly shocking, and certainly the first "official" words about future JSF in the Spanish Air Force.

We will see.

Swerve said:
What's the expected retirement date of R11, & what sort of replacement is the Armada seeking?
The date is unknown at this moment.

But the noises of the Navy point to past 2015, with the limit being 2020 when the AV-8B+ are predicted to be finally retired.

harryriedl said:
thats interesting on PdA under no circumstances will be able to operated the F35B dose that mean GG won't be able to operate F35B so Cavor and Juan Carlos will be the only F35B capable ships
I don't know about the Garibaldi, but the R-11 would need extensive (and expensive) changes in order to be F-35 capable. AFAIK the planned MLU for the R-11 not include the needed modifications of the Lifts, Hangar deck, Fliying deck, etc... so the R-11 won't be capable of operate them in the future.

Oh! And I couldn't resist put a photo of the NATO Multinational Exercise Noble Midas 07. Spanish Harriers on the HMS Illustrious...

Photo © Peñuelas
 
Last edited:

contedicavour

New Member
There are a lot of discussions on what is feasible to ensure Garibaldi can operate F35Bs. From what I've seen modifications could be made during the mid life update starting in 2010 to the elevators and hangars in order to house F35s, but (i) it would cost a lot for a ship that will anyway decommission in 2020-2025 and (ii) the Garibaldi wouldn't be able to operate much more than 6-8 F35Bs.
Let's see what is decided in the next 2 years by the Italian Navy.

cheers
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
PdA, C, Shakri and GG are not able to operate JSF because it has a high weight for the elevators of this 'old' aircraft carriers.

In the future, Cavour, JCI, Aussies new LHD, Uk CVF, Doko (S.Korea) and DDG16 (Japan) will be able to operate the stovl JSF due to the necessary elevators.
thats not quite right the DDG16 one elevator which is too small and and the other is the same size as Invincible lift and has a lift design optimized for helos and is directly in the flight line of launching of the F35B i both Invincible and PdA both have decks long enough to launch F35B with useful loads. i was unsure about GG because i thought its decks weren't long enough.

the likely hood of Shakri operating any Fixed wing is highly unlikely ;)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...

In the future, Cavour, JCI, Aussies new LHD, Uk CVF, Doko (S.Korea) and DDG16 (Japan) will be able to operate the stovl JSF due to the necessary elevators.
Dokdo should be able to operate F-35B, though at low T/O weights unless a ski-jump is fitted. Hyuga (DDH16) would require more modification. Neither is really suitable as built.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I find this very interesting.

Australia is concidering removing the ski jump off its BPE's because the general feeling is that even this 27,000t ship with 230m space is not big enough to operate the F-35B at any meaningful level.

The arguments are varied. Not enough deck space (deck space for 6-8+ harriers), not enough hanger space (hanger space almost as large as CVF!), not enough lifts (its even got weapons lifts), lifts poorly positioned for flight ops (only one interfers with flight ops at all and its at the very end).

This confirms my belief that the BPE was designed to always fill in as the primary carrier, and has serious light carrier potential. Not just a roro with a dock and two largish lifts.

While the BPE is not the ultimate carrier, I would imagine the PdA, GG and others mentioned would be even more limited. Having half the displacement to play with, being ~50 m shorter, at not being specifically designed for F-35 weight and dimentions. Whats a F-35 weigh, 40 tons? Even the French mistral at 24,000t is concidered too small to operate F-35 (it wasn't specifically designed to take them) even tho it has modern large lifts and is a large ship ~200m long

Australia is buying two. However there is some additional funds avalible for other heavy lifting ships. It is not entirely impossible for Australia to concider a 3rd LHD. With three ships one could operate as a near pure carrier (but all three would be carrier capable if required). I would imagine a 12 squad F-35 would be entirely feasable (particularly if the other LHD took all the helo flight ops). Australia is already commited to the F-35 program and B orders would easily be arranged.

However if Spain is concidering building a dedicated carrier Australia might be interested. Australia I think would be interested in the Juan operating F-35's and how efficently it can do it. Spain certainly has some time up its sleve, and it hasn't been rushing in to buy/build carriers or F-35bs.
 
Top