Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Navor86 · Sep 17, 2007

IIRC the Kiowas and Iroquois were deloyed to Peacekeeping missions, so as I understand they were also armed with Doorguns, Gun and or Rockepods. So why should 28 Helos just sit around for rookie training.

battlensign · Sep 17, 2007

Aussie Digger said:
Where are we going to get more from?

AS I said, we've got 7 at present, with 2 more to be delivered shortly and the rest in various stages of constructuion.

We could have 1000 Tigers here in Australia. We still couldn't deploy any because we don't have the crews. Simple as that. It will be 2009/10 before they reach IOC as I understand.

They simply won't be going ANYWHERE until they reach initial operational capability...

Well that is just purely and simply horribly unsatisfying

..........Damned reality checks!

Aussie Digger · Sep 17, 2007

Navor86 said:
IIRC the Kiowas and Iroquois were deloyed to Peacekeeping missions, so as I understand they were also armed with Doorguns, Gun and or Rockepods. So why should 28 Helos just sit around for rookie training.

Iroquois transport helo's were armed with door guns and nothing else. They are being replaced in the transport role by MRH-90 aircraft, which wil have door guns also. The light utility tasks that Iroquois's used to perform will be conducted by this new helo. I don't expect it ever to be deployed operationally, as it is first and foremost a training helicopter. If it is deployed to some peacekeeping operation than it may indeed be fitted with door guns.

Iroquois Bushranger gunships were armed with door guns, mini-guns and rocket pods. They have been replaced by Tiger ARH. The Tiger is simply not operational yet.

The Kiowa's were deployed to Timor for a while, but have never been armed. Sometimes they carried a sniper in the back for light fire duties, just as the Blackhawks sometimes do and once I heard a story about a guy in a Kiowa carrying an M79 grenade launcher in the back of one and firing it out of the helicopter occasionally, but I can't imagine THAT would be done in these Workplace Health and Safety conscious days...

As to why they should "sit around for rookie training"? That is what they are primarily FOR! You've got to move away from thinking they are primarily an LUH. They are first and foremost a training helicopter. They will possess some ability to conduct utility tasks, they may even be used for that purpose occasionally, but only when they have spare aircraft from their pilot training duties.

It's very similar to RAAF's Hawk Mk 127. Now these could be useful in some combat operations, they would be excellent demonstration aircraft for the Roulettes, but Air Force simply doesn't have enough of these aircraft to spare for these roles. They are for training. The F/A-18's etc are for fighting.

Do you expect Army to waste it's precious flying hours teaching prospective pilots the basics of flying and military flying at that in our precious few Tigers, MRH-90's or Chinooks?

jacktar · Sep 18, 2007

Aussie Digger said:
As to why they should "sit around for rookie training"? That is what they are primarily FOR! You've got to move away from thinking they are primarily an LUH. They are first and foremost a training helicopter. They will possess some ability to conduct utility tasks, they may even be used for that purpose occasionally, but only when they have spare aircraft from their pilot training duties.

I would also point out that under the procurement model being investigated by the Commonwealth, the training aircraft to be supplied under Air9000 Phase 7 will most likely be contractor owned. In that case it is very unlikely they will ever be used in the LUH role.

Aussie Digger · Sep 18, 2007

jacktar said:
I would also point out that under the procurement model being investigated by the Commonwealth, the training aircraft to be supplied under Air9000 Phase 7 will most likely be contractor owned. In that case it is very unlikely they will ever be used in the LUH role.

I will wait and see before commenting, however I was under the impression that the Government had basically ruled out this method of acquisition for "larger" platforms, due to the very restrictions you refer to and few if any savings...

jacktar · Sep 19, 2007

Aussie Digger said:
I will wait and see before commenting, however I was under the impression that the Government had basically ruled out this method of acquisition for "larger" platforms, due to the very restrictions you refer to and few if any savings...

I believe a decision will be made shortly. Whatever way they go, my feeling is that the ADF will require both training aircraft and aircraft for the LUH role. It would make sense if whatever airframe is chosen could fill both roles for Army and the Fleet Air Arm. So I wouldn't be surprised if their was a second buy down the track dedicated to the LUH role.

Aussie Digger · Sep 19, 2007

Okay this is the "headsup" I have received about the "LUH project".

Air-9000 Phase 7, the training helo project is to acquire 32x helo's to be operated jointly by Army and Navy. They will probably be co-located at the same base to allow for training efficiencies and support cost reductions.

Some of these helo's will receive capabilities such as FLIR sensors, Top Owl helmet mounted sights and some radar capability, but only enough to allow for training and progression onto MRH-90 and Tiger ARH. These training helo's are specifically replacing the Squirrel and Army "training" Kiowa's and will DEFINITELY be ADF owned, the decision to purchase outright actually having been made during first pass approval...

As to the LUH helo's, they have not been approved as yet, even as far as mere inclusion in the Defence Capability Plan, let alone first pass approval etc. There is a possibility that the LUH will be in the A109/AW139 classes, however the project is so far off, I doubt it's even adequately defined as yet.

A broad requirement under AIR-9000 and under Project Redfin (for Special Forces) is all that is known (publicly) about this project so far. I suppose this gives us a licence to speculate all we wish...

So 2x Squadrons worth of A-109E Powers and armed (when necessary) with 2.75inch FFAR, DAGR guided rockets and 12.7mm gun pods will do me nicely thanks...

Tasman · Sep 19, 2007

Aussie Digger said:
A broad requirement under AIR-9000 and under Project Redfin (for Special Forces) is all that is known (publicly) about this project so far. I suppose this gives us a licence to speculate all we wish...

So 2x Squadrons worth of A-109E Powers and armed (when necessary) with 2.75inch FFAR, DAGR guided rockets and 12.7mm gun pods will do me nicely thanks...

I could live with that!

It does seem to make sense to have a light helo to supplement the MRH-90's and Tigers for situations where a smaller or less sophisticated helo will suffice.

Tas

barra · Sep 20, 2007

CPA 319/07 Wednesday, 19 September 2007
ARMY FAREWELLS IROQUOIS (Huey) HELICOPTER
WHAT: Farewell flypast of three Army UH-1H Iroquois (Huey) helicopters
WHERE: Gallipoli Barracks Enoggera

WHEN: Friday, 21 September 2007

WHO: Brigadier Nick Bartels, Commander 16th Brigade (Aviation), Iroquois air crew.
Three UH-1H Iroquois helicopters will leave Gallipoli Barracks at Enoggera at 11.55am on Friday, 21 September for a farewell flypast over Brisbane. They will return to Gallipoli Barracks Enoggera where doorstop interviews will be conducted.
Background:
The Australian Defence Force took delivery of the Iroquois in 1962. The helicopters saw service in Malaysia, Vietnam, Egypt and the Sinai as part of the Royal Australian Air Force. The helicopter capability was transferred to the Army in 1989. The Royal Australian Navy also flew Iroquois from 1967 to 1989. The Iroquois served in peace monitoring missions with the Army in Bougainville and the Solomon Islands and assisted in humanitarian relief in tsunami-torn Banda Aceh. It has played a vital role in domestic disaster relief as well as community service.
Media note:
Media interested in attending the event at Gallipoli Barracks, Enoggera, are asked to be at the main pass office in Lloyd Street by 11.15am on Friday, 21 September.
Defence imagery and vision will be available through the Defence website.
Media Contact:
Paul Lineham,Defence Public Affairs 0408 972 329
Defence Media Liaison
02) 6265 3343 or 0408 498 664

For anyone interested and in BrisVegas tomorrow. Sounds like the final farewell for an old and reliable warhorse.

Barra

Todjaeger · Sep 20, 2007

barra said:
CPA 319/07 Wednesday, 19 September 2007
ARMY FAREWELLS IROQUOIS (Huey) HELICOPTER
WHAT: Farewell flypast of three Army UH-1H Iroquois (Huey) helicopters
WHERE: Gallipoli Barracks Enoggera

WHEN: Friday, 21 September 2007

WHO: Brigadier Nick Bartels, Commander 16th Brigade (Aviation), Iroquois air crew.
Three UH-1H Iroquois helicopters will leave Gallipoli Barracks at Enoggera at 11.55am on Friday, 21 September for a farewell flypast over Brisbane. They will return to Gallipoli Barracks Enoggera where doorstop interviews will be conducted.
Background:
The Australian Defence Force took delivery of the Iroquois in 1962. The helicopters saw service in Malaysia, Vietnam, Egypt and the Sinai as part of the Royal Australian Air Force. The helicopter capability was transferred to the Army in 1989. The Royal Australian Navy also flew Iroquois from 1967 to 1989. The Iroquois served in peace monitoring missions with the Army in Bougainville and the Solomon Islands and assisted in humanitarian relief in tsunami-torn Banda Aceh. It has played a vital role in domestic disaster relief as well as community service.
Media note:
Media interested in attending the event at Gallipoli Barracks, Enoggera, are asked to be at the main pass office in Lloyd Street by 11.15am on Friday, 21 September.
Defence imagery and vision will be available through the Defence website.
Media Contact:
Paul Lineham,Defence Public Affairs 0408 972 329
Defence Media Liaison
02) 6265 3343 or 0408 498 664

For anyone interested and in BrisVegas tomorrow. Sounds like the final farewell for an old and reliable warhorse.

Barra

Does anyone know what will be replacing these 3 UH-1s, or from where? S-70 Blackhawks, or MRH-90 (I had thought these were not ready for service yet?)

I have to wonder when these particular aircraft first entered service, whether they were some of the initial Iroquois or a later build, since they could be close to 40 years old. Hopefully they will end up being sent to a museum so that they can been looked at in years to come.

-Cheers

Aussie Digger · Sep 20, 2007

Todjaeger said:
Does anyone know what will be replacing these 3 UH-1s, or from where? S-70 Blackhawks, or MRH-90 (I had thought these were not ready for service yet?)

I have to wonder when these particular aircraft first entered service, whether they were some of the initial Iroquois or a later build, since they could be close to 40 years old. Hopefully they will end up being sent to a museum so that they can been looked at in years to come.

-Cheers

The UH-1H Iroquois are being replaced (eventually) by the MRH-90. The initial 12x MRH-90 ordered were to cover the Iroquois fleet, however it seems they've run out of airframe hours before the MRH-90's can arrive.

Typical for Australian Defence acquisitions...

Investigator · Sep 21, 2007

Comments deleted.

barra · Sep 21, 2007

To celebrate the end of an era here are some of my favourite bushranger images.
The sound of an Iroquois has been a part of military life for more than a generation of Australian Servicemen. Personally I can remember the RAAF SAR choppers flying along Stockton Beach over 25 years ago as I was a young fella growing up.
They will remain in service with ARDU for a few more months before being paid off altogether, hopefully a suitable memorial will be established at the AWM to commemorate such an iconic part of Australian military history.
All these photos show the Iroquios in RAAF service, the last one is for AD in particular. Enjoy.

Hooroo

barra · Sep 21, 2007

Oh shame investigator! At least let us mourn the passing of our great warhorses before you start picking over the bones......sniff.

Barra

barra · Sep 21, 2007

Our SAS elite Font Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print Mark Dodd | September 22, 2007
WHAT makes the Special Air Service elite may not be what you expect, reports Mark Dodd.

While the memory of his Vietnam homecoming is unlikely to fade, this week -- the 50th anniversary of the founding of the Australian SAS -- the commander of the Australian Defence Force's Special Operations Command, Major General Mike Hindmarsh, pays Barnby and his fellow Vietnam SAS veterans the ultimate tribute: they were the best in the world.

"The SAS Regiment, in an incredibly difficult operating environment in Indochina, quickly stamped itself as probably the finest exponents of clandestine reconnaissance and harassment in the world at that time and perhaps since," Hindmarsh tells Inquirer.

"It's record of losing only one soldier to enemy fire in six years of highly effective counter-insurgency operations endures today as a phenomenal record and testament to the skills and professionalism of the soldiers and officers. I remain in awe of their achievements."

The origins of the Australian SAS date from 1957, with the raising of two army companies whose role remains virtually unchanged to this day, a parachute-capable force specialising in reconnaissance, surveillance and harassment deep in enemy territory.

The unit's humble beginnings derived from a need to replicate the British army's success with a special air service formed in 1941, during World War II, an all-volunteer outfit conducting deep penetration raids behind enemy lines in North Africa and whose the motto was: Who Dares Wins.

Indeed, the first SAS instructors in Australia were mostly hardened veterans of World War II and the Korean War, many of whom had served with British airborne and special forces units.

"It is a tribute to the original guys with whom we stand in awe that they set the standards, trained very, very hard and developed our capability," says regiment historian Greg Mawkes, who joined the SAS as an 18-year-old private after passing selection in 1966 and retired as a major in 1987. He continues to serve in the special forces reserve.

"What we are today, we can trace back to those early warriors."

It was not until 1964 that the Australian SAS, sometimes referred to as the SASR, evolved into a fully fledged regiment and the famed sandy beret with winged dagger was introduced.

Post-Vietnam, the regiment fell into relative obscurity and only began to regain a public profile in the 1980s with the introduction of a counter-terrorism role, spurred in part by the 1978 Hilton Hotel bombing in Sydney and the spate of Middle East-linked plane hijackings.

But the lessons learned at such cost in Vietnam and before that in Borneo endure today. Selection standards for the regiment, the Australian Defence Force's most elite fighting formation, remain the most demanding of any army entry. It is not unheard of for an entire draft of potential recruits to fail.

While entry demands require a superb level of physical fitness, mental toughness is tested equally. "The characteristics of the SAS soldier remain unchanged: emotional and physical resilience, mental toughness," Hindmarsh says. "An Olympic athlete may not necessarily have the mental toughness or be able to handle the emotional pain."

Sheer physical size and fitness by themselves are no guarantee of success at selection. More often than not, it is the scrawny guy and not the hulking rugby forward type who passes.

One example of a mental toughness test provided to Inquirer by regiment officers is the offer of a truck ride at the end of several forced marches, including night navigation trials.

An exhausted recruit will gratefully struggle on to the back of a truck, only to be ordered to walk back to the original destination, which could be 20km to 30km away.

This is a test of mental pain. Some recruits throw it in and refuse to go on. Others spit in their hands, accept the order and begin what they think is going to be another gruelling march, only to find the truck parked around the corner with the real offer of a lift back to base.

"We are testing personal integrity," says an officer with the Special Operations Command (SOCOM). The facts speak for themselves, although the nicknames of individual course tests convey little of the physical and mental pain they contain, names such as "lucky dip", "happy wanderer" and "lone warrior".

The SAS is reluctant to speak about specific numbers but confirms that of the "several thousand" aspirants for the sandy beret since 1968, about 25 per cent passed the three-week selection, now conducted at Bindoon in Western Australia. "You may get 100 guys turn up. You cannot pick who will get through. It is not (typically) the big strapping guy and can be the little weedy guy. It's a real lottery," says the SOCOM official.

The size of the SAS is classified but comprises hundreds, not thousands, formed into three Sabre squadrons similar in size to a regular infantry company of about 120 troops.

Since its inception, 4250 sandy berets have been awarded.

"The recruitment and management of high-quality personnel is imperative to SASR's continued success. SASR strives for quality, not quantity, and they will never drop their standards," Hindmarsh says.

Since September 11, 2001, the focus of the regiment has turned more towards a counter-insurgency role and demands for its unique services have never been higher since Vietnam, he says.

"The interesting thing is in 2003 we were still the Davids taking on the Goliaths when we went into the western desert against Iraqi main force units. Now our main focus is against insurgents. And because of 9/11 you have seen that happen, we're more in counter-insurgency mode now."

But SAS operators, as they like to be called, have also been active closer to home. Only last year they were deployed ahead of the main Australian-led force ordered into East Timor to restore order and put an end to weeks of bloody street violence.

And they were put on notice again for a possible intervention in Fiji following last year's military coup.

"So we have to be able as we can to maintain our capability and we have to be very careful to ensure we are not over-committed in Afghanistan and the Middle East to ensure we can fulfil all our roles that can pop up regionally," Hindmarsh says.

This week the SAS celebrated

Diggers take it to Taliban Font Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print Mark Dodd | September 19, 2007
AUSTRALIAN special forces in Afghanistan have struck at Taliban insurgents in their heartland in a series of secretive, brutal engagements waged across some of the most hostile terrain the commandos and Special Air Service troopers have ever fought in.

The fight for south-central Oruzgan province was a pivotal battle and one with crucial security implications, the commander of Australia's special forces, Major General Mike Hindmarsh, said yesterday.

In a rare interview, Major General Hindmarsh said SAS operations had thrown the Taliban "off balance", helping prevent insurgent attacks on the key provincial centres of Tarin Kowt and Kandahar.

"The Taliban, they're tough resilient fighters, but they're also a nasty bunch of bastards and our guys are very happy about the work they're doing there," he told The Australian.

The hard fighting has come at a cost, with 14 Australian special forces soldiers wounded since deploying to Afghanistan in 2005.

This year, emboldened Taliban insurgents have mounted repeated attacks against NATO-led coalition forces, resulting in the worst violence in Afghanistan since the Islamic extremists were ousted from power in 2001.

Suicide bombings have soared and about 4000 people have been killed over the past 12 months, a quarter of them civilians.

US Defence Secretary Robert Gates warned yesterday that Afghanistan was a "litmus test" for NATO and would be "a mark of shame on all of us" if the alliance faltered in laying the foundations for democracy there.

The fact that there have been no Australian fatalities owes as much to good luck as the intensive training special forces undergo.

In several injury cases, a "few millimetres" difference would have resulted in certain death, Major General Hindmarsh said, referring to recent close fighting.

"One thing we can't be accused of is being obsessed with force protection - in other words, staying in base camp and venturing out every now and again," he said. "We like to patrol, and patrol in depth, which means well out, and we like to do it for lengthy periods of time.

"Our special forces modus operandi in Afghanistan is to get out there - get among the enemy and spend a long time in their (the Taliban's) safe areas, becoming as familiar with that environment as the enemy."

That involved gruelling patrols lasting a week or more into rugged mountainous terrain where the temperature ranged from 50C in summer to minus 15C in winter.

The environment was hard on vehicles and harder on the soldiers, requiring extreme levels of fitness and mental toughness, Major General Hindmarsh said. Every aspect of a patrol was meticulously planned.

The secret war pitting Australian special forces against the Taliban was classic counter-insurgency involving small, long-range patrols pushing deep into enemy territory, he said.

The effect had been "unsettling" for the Taliban and had helped thwart attacks on the city of Kandahar and the town of Tarin Kowt, where the Australian reconstruction taskforce is based.

Major General Hindmarsh was unapologetic about the level of secrecy surrounding SAS operations in Afghanistan. The Taliban were technically savvy, had access to the internet and closely monitored any news involving the movement of Australian special forces, he said.

The elite Perth-based Special Air Service Regiment marks its 50th anniversary this week.

There has been a number of articles in The Australian newspaper this week about SASR in the lead up to the 50th Anniversary of its formation in Australia. This article gives a fairly good rundown of the history and role of the unit. Other articles have contained reports of current Ops in A'stan, which is a little unusual for the ADF. I thought our foreign friends may find these articles interesting.

Barra

t68 · Sep 21, 2007

hi guys

A little off beat but may be aussie digger can help me out
I was flicking through aus/nz defender mag at the newsagent the other day and saw picture of what seamed to be mack 6x6 tipper truck with light armour on it ,can you tell me if this is some new kit just arrived latley or have we had it in invetory for some time .

just curious as i was a choco for some time in RACT and drove the mack a fair bit but dont remember any one say any thing about it,also can you tell where i can get more pictures to look at and do the do this to the mog and rover

thanks in advance

Aussie Digger · Sep 22, 2007

t68 said:
hi guys

A little off beat but may be aussie digger can help me out
I was flicking through aus/nz defender mag at the newsagent the other day and saw picture of what seamed to be mack 6x6 tipper truck with light armour on it ,can you tell me if this is some new kit just arrived latley or have we had it in invetory for some time .

G'day mate. The armour kits are known as "SEK's" - survivability enhancement kits. They have been procured for ops in Afghanistan and Iraq and have been fitted to Mogs, Macks and plant equipment operated by the "Ginger Beers"...

just curious as i was a choco for some time in RACT and drove the mack a fair bit but dont remember any one say any thing about it,also can you tell where i can get more pictures to look at and do the do this to the mog and rover

The Mog has also been done, not sure about Landies, but I think not. At least I haven't seen any personally, I think they are using Bushmasters for all "landrover" duties, on ops now...

The DoD website as always will provide the most amount of images of these things (it's where JHF gets most of his photos

jacktar · Sep 25, 2007

Land 17 SPHs

Defence has this morning finally released the RFT for the new Self Propelled Howitzers. Interesting that they are asking to "out-range" anything within our geographic region. Does this suggest a VLAP capability? How do you out-range the Malaysian G5 guns?

*****

You Are Invited To Submit A Tender For The Acquisition And Support of A Protected Self Propelled 155MM Weapon Platform Capability (Also Referred To As The Self Propelled Howitzer Or SPH Capability) Under The LAND 17 Project.

LAND 17, Artillery Replacement Project, Seeks To Enhance The Indirect Fire Support Capability of The Australian Defence Force (ADF). The SPH Capability Will Be One Component of The Enhanced Indirect Fire System (IFS).

The LAND 17 Project Seeks To Provide Army With An Offensive Support System That Can Out-Range Or At The Very Least Match The Capability of Similar Systems Within The Geographical Region. The Delivery Platform Will Be Capable of Manoeuvre Commensurate With That of The Supported Forces And Shall Be Capable of Communicating On The Digital Battlefield. The Project Seeks To Improve Command And Control (C2) Aspects of The Current IFS By Digitising And Enhancing The ADF’s Joint Fires C2 Network. The Project’s Objective Is To Also Meet The Various Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) Requirements Including Training Support, Facilities And All Aspects of Through Life Support.

The Commonwealth Intends Entering Into Separate Contracts For The Acquisition And Support of The SPH Capability, To Meet The Following Requirements:

(1) Supply of SPH Capability (Quantity 18, Quantity 24 Or Quantity 30 Systems) To Achieve An In-Service Date of June 2011, With An Option For The Commonwealth To Purchase Up To 6 Additional Systems Within 5 Years Following Final Acceptance Under The Contract (Acquisition); And

(2) Provision of An Initial 7 Years Support of The SPH Capability Under A Performance Management Regime, With Options For Additional Periods of Support For The Life of The Equipment.

Both Contracts Will Be Entered Into In Response To A Single Tender, Hence The Commonwealth Will Only Consider Tenders That Address Both The Acquisition And Support Requirements Specified In The RFT. The Commonwealth Intends Entering Into Each Contract At The Same Time.

The Commonwealth May Enter Into A Contract With A Single Legal Entity For Both Contracts Or Separate Legal Entities For Each Contract Where The Requirements Specified In Clause 4.10 of The Conditions of Tender Are Met.

Waylander · Sep 26, 2007

In the end if one wants to be able to outrange or at least match the range of current systems in the area (G5), be mobile enough to follow for example the Abrams and have a fully digitalized fire support network, including modern fire finder and counterfire capabilities, the PzH2000, AS90, G6 and K9 with the PzH2000 offering the biggest capabilities but also having the biggest price tag.

G6 could be interesting due to it being wheeled and not tracked and so might suit Australias needs better than the other ones.

K9 is also interesting due to the smaller price with a relaitvely modern and capable SPH.

jacktar · Sep 26, 2007

Waylander said:
G6 could be interesting due to it being wheeled and not tracked and so might suit Australias needs better than the other ones.

Does anybody know if the G6 is a real option? Are they in service with any Armies or just an engineering exercise that hasn't found a customer?

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