India moving closer to Israel????

su-30mki

Banned Member
Some more insights into the partnership:





India’s relations with Israel lay dormant for about four decades. However, the changes in the international geo-strategic environment compelled India to establish full diplomatic relations with Israel in 1992. The main events that compelled India to reconsider the decision of establishing diplomatic ties with Israel were–the Gulf War which seriously undermined the unity of the Arab world, end of the cold war, which had a positive impact on the peaceful solutions of many international problems, for example; Arab Israeli peace talks, urgent need for better relations with the US, Pakistan’s propaganda against India in the West Asian and North African states in order to establish an Islamic bloc and to internationalise the Kashmir issue, lack of support from the Arab countries during the time of crisis and their support to Pakistan at the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Conference) meetings, and less consideration for the Muslim vote bank in the calculation of the regime in power, on the domestic front. Besides this, India was also aware of Israel’s achievements in agricultural technologies as well as better industrial know-how which could create a big scope for cooperation.

The normalisation of relations left both countries to explore as many areas as possible. While Indo-Israel relations increased rapidly in the field of trade and agriculture, both the countries continued to explore as many areas as possible for mutual co-operation. ‘Military’ is one such area which both the countries are exploring.

In the military field, the former Soviet Union has been a strong and traditional friend and partner of India. Though the collapse of Soviet Union affected the Russian military industrial complex and their production capacity has come down from what it was in the Soviet era, but their products are export oriented and relatively low priced.

Israel on the other hand, is a late entrant in establishing diplomatic relations with India but has emerged as an important partner in various fields including the military field. Such cooperation is based on India’s realistic assesment of the global and regional security environment as well as technological requirement.

Israel had been motivated to develop its armed industry essentially because of security threats, vulnerability to manipulations by the (embargoes), national pride, employment in high technology, and import substitution and export potential.

Israel has acquired a great degree of self-sufficiency in arms build up. In addition to light arms, ammunition and communications devices, other Israeli weaponry included force multipliers, remotely piloted vehicles, electronic and anti electronic warfare systems, night vision devices, and naval equipment ranging from command and control systems, missiles and anti missile systems to a variety of patrol boats. Israeli hi-tech companies are known to be among world leaders in radar, avionics and command and control systems.

Defence firms in Israel have carved out a technological niche for which they are gaining worldwide recognition in the upgradation of weapons systems. Early efforts of Israel’s defence industry focussed on delivering basic weapon systems such as tanks, fighter aircraft, artillery and patrol boats. Now it has shifted its focus from developing new platforms to its expertise in crafting advanced electronic subsystems. By focussing on advanced electronic subsystems, Israel’s military industry has crafted scores of technologically advanced components that give 20 or 30 year old weapon systems new life and a qualitative edge and improves the capabilities of fighter aircraft, helicopters, combat vehicles, and command, control, communication, and intelligence systems. 6

Earnings from weapons exports are seen as essential for, firstly, the well-being of the Israeli defence industries, which in turn is the corner-stone of the country’s security, secondly, for the shoring up of its economy and finally, to support the Research and Development that enables Israel to maintain a leading edge in weapons technology. 7 Besides, the development cost of many Israeli projects is dependent on income from exports. “Certain projects would not have been undertaken, if there was no expectation of exports. Without exports some industries would collapse and certain projects would have to be abandoned”. 8 It is because of the arms exports that the Israeli arms industry is able to flourish.

The dominant policy impulse with Israel, so far as ties with India are concerned is to seek broader and deeper engagement with New Delhi. During Israeli President Ezer Weizman’s visit to India, Doron Suslik, Director of Corporate Communications of Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) affirmed that India is one of Israel’s important markets. He said Israel would be responsive to Indian requirements in producing military and civil aircraft and its need in high technology and computer software. Israel’s approach was not what could be called “in a donor’s mode”. 9 Businessmen in Weizman’s delegation clarified that they were looking for linkages with Indian firms not only for marketing Israeli products, but also to jointly design and evolve new software and technologies for export to other third world countries. 10



Military Cooperation

Pre-normalisation period

The motivations of both India and Israel pushed them into the global arena and made them suitable partners in the military area.

Though the basic structure of the Indo-Israel relations was laid down by India’s first Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehru, who kept the relations at a low key in deference to the value he attached to the relations with the Arab countries, the Israeli authorities nevertheless tried from time to time to upgrade the relationship. All the successive governments in New Delhi showed the courtesies to the visiting officials without upgrading the level of diplomatic representations and sought Israeli help in military matters. Before the two countries established full diplomatic relations, they clandestinely cooperated on military and intelligence matters. It was in January 1963, three months after the border conflict with China, that the government of India showed willingness to consult the Israeli specialists in military matters. In was then that the Israeli Chief of Army Staff and the Chief of Military Intelligence were welcomed to New Delhi for an exchange of views with some of India’s military top brass, including the Chief of Army Staff. 11

In subsequent years, Israeli dignitaries visited India from time to time, for example, Mr. Yigal Alon, a member of the Israeli cabinet in 1965 12 and Moshe Dayan in 1977. 13

There was also prolonged cooperation between India’s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and its Israeli counterpart, the Mossad (Israeli secret agency). Such cooperation existed even during the premiership of Indira Gandhi, (1966-77 and 1980-84) and Rajiv Gandhi (1984-1989). 14

India’s secret contacts with Israel were also substantiated by other sources. According to a controversial book, “By Way of Deception” written by Victor Ostrovsky, a former Israeli agent and a weapons testing expert, recruited by Mosad, India sent a secret mission to Israel, comprising top flight nuclear scientists in 1984. According to him the secret Indian mission came to Israel to exchange information. 15
 

coolieno99

New Member
on the other hand, India is going ahead with the multi-billion dollar natural gas pipeline project with Iran, archenemy of Israel. US is against the Iranian gas pipeline project, but India needs the gas to fuel her rapidly growing economy.
US plans to use India to contain China is fruitless. Currently China is India's second largest bilateral trading partner after the US. But China-India bilateral trade is growing at a much faster rate (about 45% a year). sometime in the future, the China-India bilateral trade will exceed the US-India bilateral trade. :coodaid
 

funtz

New Member
on the other hand, India is going ahead with the multi-billion dollar natural gas pipeline project with Iran, archenemy of Israel. US is against the Iranian gas pipeline project, but India needs the gas to fuel her rapidly growing economy.
US plans to use India to contain China is fruitless. Currently China is India's second largest bilateral trading partner after the US. But China-India bilateral trade is growing at a much faster rate (about 45% a year). sometime in the future, the China-India bilateral trade will exceed the US-India bilateral trade. :coodaid
Frankly speaking the views around in the Indian energy sector are that a oceanic pipeline is too complex and expensive to actually benefit any one, and a pipeline coming through Afghanistan – Pakistan - to India presents security challenges that make it unfeasible to operate, especially for the energy needs and more over to get any funding for a project that will be greeted with a “YA RIGHT” from all insurance firms.

let me give you a simple logic - why put money into a pipeline coming through Afganostan and Pakistan.

Pakistan is the only nation on this earth that we have had three wars with and the nation we openly accuse of supprting terorism, bomb blasts etc. etc. in India (whether these accusations are true or not is another matter).

Afganistan is one of most volatile nations on our planet and the current situation is not looking good with a resurgent taliban and AQ it will not have a stable fututre for years to come.

That project is long dead and buried as of this moment.

India is trying tooth and nails for a gas pipeline through Myanmar, however the military Junta in Myanmar wished for substantial Military supplies and support on the international scene, something that India refused however china offered (being a single party government gives China huge advantages).

We might get some natural gas from mayanmar however we stand to loose huge amounts of oil and gas in the longer run to a direct industrial competitor – China.

http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=679&language_id=1

All the so called peace forever hippies forget these implications, if we had the courage to take tough decisions we might actually have had a say in international affairs.

some additions:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=VAR20050723&articleId=729

as of now we lack the political power to supply mayanmar with arms and not have sanctions imposed on our selfs, something that china can easily do, and we do not have a seat in the security counsil to give mayanmar the VETO it needs.

we not only stand to loose in mayanmar, we can also come up short handed in Bangladest, Nepal and Srilanka against a politically and diplomatically strong China, virtually eliminating us from south east asian diplomatic scene.

That is why India must lean towards the west and in the long run Israel can provide us with more effective diplomatic support that other middle-eastern nations will be willing to extend, no matter how much we support the cause of the Palestine, Lebanon or Iran.

Apologoies for going off topic.

As for India not opting an alliance with the united states of America because there is more trade going on with china, well then you see there is no need for the USA to look for allies as its trade with China by far exceeds Indian – Chinese trade.
 
Last edited:

coolieno99

New Member
I believe the Iran-Pakistan-India gas line project would actually help promote peace and stability in South Asia. It is in Pakistan's interest to ensure that gas flow (thru the pipeline) remains uninterrupted, as it will collect millions in transit fees. India will benefit greatly from having abundant cheap gas supply.

But most importantly, the pipeline would serves as a political catalyst to break the impasse between India and Pakistan in the last 60 years(since the Partition). It would be similiar to what happened to East and West Germany during the fall of the Berlin Wall.
 

nero

New Member
exactly the opposite

.

contrary to popular belief, india is getting away from israel.

u must understand th edomestic potilitcs of india to know this.

under trmendous pressure from the left & islamic alliance, the UPA govt is being forced to keep safe distance from israel.

recently the left forcibly cancelled the purchase of SPYDER missilesf rom israel.

The 18 Spyder missiles, which can react quickly after locking on air targets, were contracted for about Rs.1,800 crore and would replace the made-in-India Russian-origin OSA-AKM and ZRK-BD Strela surface-to-air missile systems.

The fresh contract could be larger, possibly in the region of over Rs. 3,500 crores, said the sources.

.
 

funtz

New Member
.

contrary to popular belief, india is getting away from israel.

u must understand th edomestic potilitcs of india to know this.

under trmendous pressure from the left & islamic alliance, the UPA govt is being forced to keep safe distance from israel.

recently the left forcibly cancelled the purchase of SPYDER missilesf rom israel.

The 18 Spyder missiles, which can react quickly after locking on air targets, were contracted for about Rs.1,800 crore and would replace the made-in-India Russian-origin OSA-AKM and ZRK-BD Strela surface-to-air missile systems.

The fresh contract could be larger, possibly in the region of over Rs. 3,500 crores, said the sources.

.
The spyder missile contract is under investigation (by CVC), if and only if enough evidence is present to prove that bribes were accepted to sway the contract, will there be a new contract.

As for the left and Israel, well the left has concentrated all its political power in forming a anti USA front in India, presently there is no talk of Israel in a negative way going on inside India except for the spyder issue and the barak issue.

When you look at the real picture Israelis are better than USA and the French at this game, an offer to develop barak-2, unmanned helicopter etc. etc. is getting to tempting to look over, especially with a nation like Israel which has the resources, hence there is a very real chance that the investigation might be influenced, which is very unfortunate.

This belongs in a political forum however you expressed your views so:

The left – Muslim alliance well it does exist and it does oppose Israel – USA – India military, corporate, social partnerships. However the limitations this allegiance faces is that the only two Parties that have the infrastructure inside India to win majority of the seats in the elections are Congress and BJP, both of them are pro Israel more than they are pro Arab, and BJP always supported a foreign policy around active western corporation, in recent times Congress has moves out of its neutral political shell and adopted a more pro western strategy.

The anti Israel- anti USA front will always exist in India a testament to democratic values all around this world, just as opposition to status quo exists in Israel and anti war front exists in Israel.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is not a political forum. Any further comments geared around politics will see posts deleted.

If you want to discuss politics, then go to another area.

No response is required to prev posts and/or this one.
 

su-30mki

Banned Member
I dont think there is any pressure form any Islamist or Left allience to the relations between India and Isreal.The left is against the US but not isreal and as for as the islamists are concerned, indian muslim clerics just concluded a tour of isreal.Hence the relations with Isreal has got nothing to do with Isreal as India is a secular country.
 

funtz

New Member
Whatever I can make out of the scene from a strictly military point of view is:

Israel is worlds 5th largest military exporter, India is its primary customer.

India will maintain a huge military procurement budget for the foreseeable future.

Israel needs to export weapons to keep its Defense Industry a profitable one, India needs to fill in gaps in its military forces.

The equipment Israel is offering India offers distinct advantage as Pakistan will not engage in trade with Israel and despite its efforts USA will not allow Israel to sell military hardware to China.

A relationship with Israel has provided India with some sophisticated technology and can provide much more, for example;

Gaps in Indian military filled through Israel:
- The green pine radar, Aerostat Radar, Phalcon AEW/AWAC, Elta systems EL 2032 fire control radar, Artillery fire control system, guided artillery shells, State of art Air to air missiles (Derby, Python 4-5), anti tank missile (LAHAT).
- Land based military surveillance technology.

Fields of active Cooperation:
- Barak long ranged navel SAM missile defence system.
http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=30324&kwd=
- Medium range SAM for the land forces.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-israel-introducing-mr-sam-03461/

Major Future acquisitions:
- ASEA fire control radar (EL/M-2052 and derivatives) technology for HAL Tejas project. It was introduced at the Aero India Bangalore, with an eye on the Tejas, which is going to be huge (250-300), however considering the fact that the project is going to replace the relatively unsophisticated Mig 21’s (as jaguar-mirage2000, Mig 27, are undergoing upgrades to allow service into 2020), India might be looking for EL 2032 or an indigenous system (if it matches up to the expectations).

Future cooperation fields:
-Unmanned combat helicopters.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ed_combat_helicopters/articleshow/2279391.cms

Dual use technology:
-Israeli space surveillance technology.
-Green pine radar and Modified prithvi.
This did not stop India from using the Green Pine technology in its own November 2006 anti-missile test, using a modified Prithvi short-range ballistic missile with an exo-atmospheric kill vehicle and a hit to kill warhead.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/israel-successfully-tests-arrow-theater-missile-defense-01571
Which is very odd, as a first time successful engagement of an incoming missile by an indigenous missile especially when the organization developing it has not been successful in developing the very same - but what would seem less complex technology - for two projects.
1-Akash
2- Trishul.

Hence this may be an example of Israel’s transfer of technology to India, which highlights the fact that Israel will enjoy a certain freedom in dealing with Indian defense procurement sector which they might not be allowed to by the USA (as it does have a certain veto capacity when it comes to defense export related matters of USA) for deals with China.
 
Last edited:

su-30mki

Banned Member
Pre-normalisation period

The motivations of both India and Israel pushed them into the global arena and made them suitable partners in the military area.

T
In subsequent years, Israeli dignitaries visited India from time to time, for example, Mr. Yigal Alon, a member of the Israeli cabinet in 1965 12 and Moshe Dayan in 1977. 13

There was also prolonged cooperation between India’s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and its Israeli counterpart, the Mossad (Israeli secret agency). Such cooperation existed even during the premiership of Indira Gandhi, (1966-77 and 1980-84) and Rajiv Gandhi (1984-1989). 14

India’s secret contacts with Israel were also substantiated by other sources. According to a controversial book, “By Way of Deception” written by Victor Ostrovsky, a former Israeli agent and a weapons testing expert, recruited by Mosad, India sent a secret mission to Israel, comprising top flight nuclear scientists in 1984. According to him the secret Indian mission came to excahne information.


In May 1993, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres visited India. Peres too dealt with the issues of terrorism and India’s territorial integrity. He also supported India’s stand on Kashmir. “We support fully and completely the territorial integrity of India and agree with the Shimla Agreement.” 23



President Ezer Weizman visited India in January 1997. He underlined India as a potential partner in the area of aircraft industry. 26 During his visit the two countries decided to exchange military attaches. Following the visit, senior Indian officials, visited Israel and inspected advanced defence systems. India’s top defence ministry scientists too were reported to have visited Israel secretly and toured satellite and missile programmes. 27 A few days after India tested its nuclear devices in May 1998, a top ranking delegation from the IAI toured India. The purpose was to accelerate the sale of Israeli made pilotless aircraft anti-ship missiles. 28

India’s Defence Secretary T.K. Banerjee led a high level defence delegation to Israel in February 1997. 29 The Chief of Army Staff General V.P. Malik visited Israel from March 8-13, 1998. 30 According to India’s military attache Col. Brown it was a goodwill visit. “We are looking forward to building a long lasting defence relationship”.

During the recent incidents in Kashmir, Israel agreed to speed up shipments of arms and military equipment to India on the request of the Indian government to accelerate the arms orders, which were submitted before the recent developments. The Israeli defence establishment responded favourably. 36

India and Israel have maintained extensive security cooperation in recent years. Prime Minister Ehud Barak has taken interest in the development of relations with India and even held a special debate on the matter. The two countries maintain two forums for conferring, one between their respective foreign ministries and the other between the defence ministries. At periodic meetings, the parties exchange analyses of the situation in the Middle East and Asia. 37

At the base of the relationship between India and Israel there appeared to be a similarity in an understanding of the geo-political situation. Both are surrounded by strong and hostile neighbours. According to a senior Israeli official, “From the moment we established diplomatic relations seven years ago, we found a common language”. 38 According to him, there was a deep understanding between the two countries to have a fluent and clear dialogue.

A number of ongoing programmers in India are not radically different from their Israeli counterparts. They include the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) (Israel’s Lavi), Arjun (Merkava), Prithvi (Jericho I), and Agni (Jericho II). The same can be said about a number of other Indian programmes such as Remotely Piloted Vehicles, Airborne Early Warning System, and anti-ballistic missile systems. 39 In this India can benefit from Israel as Israeli weapons are more advanced and battle tested.



Areas of Cooperation

Upgrading of Aircraft

MiGs: Since the early 1990s, India has embarked upon the upgrading of its MiG fleet. In order to upgrade the aging MiG-21s (which would be replaced by the LCA in the early part of the next decade–2005-2020), the Indian Ministry of Defence considered offers from manufacturers in several countries including France, Russia and Israel besides considering a joint proposal from two state owned Indian aerospace manufacturers (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). 40 During the same year Israel intensified its efforts to secure the lucrative contract to upgrade the MiG-21 bis aircraft operating with the IAF. According to industry sources, representatives of IAI and Elta (a subsidiary of the IAI that manufactures electronic weapons systems have had several rounds of discussions with senior officials in the defence ministry. While the IAI package was expensive, Israel insisted on the technical superiority of their package over the Russian one. 41

According to Jane’s Defence Weekly, India’s avionics selection is multinational and that Israel was to improve the MiG-21 cockpit layout, including a head-up display. 42 During the same year, there were reports that the IAI had been given the contract for installing the electronic warfare equipment in the MiG upgrade that the IAF had embarked upon. 43 However, according to the latest reports, the upgradation of two Mig-21 aircraft are underway in Russia. After that the upgradation of the rest of the aircraft will be in India.

Light Combat Aircraft

India’s 17 year old LCA programme, delayed by more than a decade, continues to be plagued by serious technical uncertainties and cost overruns, according to India’s Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG). The CAG report stated that it was beset with delays for almost every vital component of the aircraft and has compelled the Indian Air Force (IAF) to seek interim measures to cover the shortfall of aircraft by upgrading around 125 MiG 21 bis fighters. The LCA was originally expected to begin replacing the Mig 21s which form the backbone of the IAF, by late 1990s. LCA’s airframe, multimode radar, its flight control system are all behind schedule. 44

Also the first two LCA prototypes were to be powered by US General Electric F404-FJ23 engines (which were bought in 1986 for the prototype LCAs) despite protests from the US government after Washington imposed sanctions on India for its 1998 nuclear tests. The US engines would ultimately be replaced by the locally developed Kaveri, which has undergone extensive testing in Russia. 45 According to Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, head of the DRDO and scientific adviser to the government, each LCA was expected to cost $22 million and that foreign participation will bring down its cost to $15-$18 million. 46

Israeli experience in avionics, airframes and the incorporation of engine and weapons into the airframe can be useful in the development of LCA. 47

Advanced Light Helicopters: The development of Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) had been adversely affected after Washington imposed sanctions on India for the 1998 nuclear testing. The US embargo resulted in almost total stoppage of activity in regard to the ALH as it stopped getting the turbo shaft engine from the US. It was recommended that the government swiftly seek an alternative engine supplier and avoid all future dealings with companies in sanctions imposing countries. 48 Here again Israeli technology and expertise can be explored in order to remove the difficulties.

Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS): India was keen to collaborate with Israel in the indigenous AWACS development project. The Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) received a proposal from the IAI on the probability of the collaboration in the project. 49 According to the sources in the Ministry of Defence, Israel offered to sell 3 AWACS aircraft to India. But finally, in a recent move, the Indian Air Force got two advanced early warning aircraft from Russia. They have landed at the Chandigarh airbase. 50 According to the published data, one of the variants of the aircraft is a Russia-Israel joint venture. Though the Centre for Airborne Systems in India is developing an Airborne Early Warning Systems for the Indian armed forces, the need for AWACS has been expedited by the recent Pakistan backed infiltration in Kargil. The need for the aircraft was hastened because India needed to keep a strict vigil on any movement in Indian and Pakistani airspace, along the Line of Control and the international borders. 51 The Kargil experience underscored the importance of the state-of-the-art surveillance capabilities.

Surveillance Equipments: Unmanned Air Vehicles (UAVs)/Remotely Piloted Vehicles (RPVs)

UAVs are increasingly being viewed as strategic force multipliers since they send virtual real time data and pictures from deep inside the enemy territory while safely dodging enemy radars. It can give data on enemy’s force deployment, kind of weapons and equipment deployed and the level of enemy’s defence preparedness along borders.

The Israelis are among the world leaders in the field of UAV manufacturing. The Israeli UAVs are much smaller, lighter and thus have more manoeuverability and strategic value. The IAI, an established player in the UAV market has proved that there was significant export opportunity. During the Paris air show held in June 1995, the Israelis displayed its largest range of UAVs. 52

Airborne surveillance has been one of the key areas of Indo-Israel defence cooperation. India and Israel have already signed a contract for UAVs to boost India’s air surveillance arm. 53 Both the countries are exploring joint production of UAVs. Negotiations on potential joint production of the ‘heron’ UAV for the Indian Navy have already reached an advanced stage. 54 The “heron” is the most modern UAV made by the IAI and has a longer range and more sophisticated payload than the ’searcher’ which India had first agreed to buy from Israel in 1996. 55 According to the latest reports, India is all set to import from Israel more sophisticated and higher range UAVs for more effective surveillance of the high altitude ranges in Jammu and Kashmir bordering Pakistan. 56

Acquisition of UAVs has become all the more important after the Kargil experience. It was considered as one of the high priority requirements by the IAF. The Indian Air Force Chief A.Y. Tipnis confirmed, that the IAF had stressed for immediate induction of the UAVs for more intensive human intelligence of the 140 km long difficult stretch of high altitude ranges along the line of control in Kargil sector. 57 The Indian armed services already have a few UAVs at their disposal which were used during the Kargil war, but unfortunately the UAVs were not found to be that effective as world class UAVs are, mainly because not many international UAV manufacturing companies are manufacturing high altitude UAVs.

As regards the RPVs, the MOD has reached the final stage of the deal with Israel. India was planning to have one time purchase of RPVs including technology transfer which will not only fill India’s operational requirements, but also help develop the indigenous RPV project. 58

Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Another very important DRDO project concerning combat vehicles is the indigenous design, development and production of the Main Battle Tank, Arjun, which is supposed to replace the older, license produced, Vijayanta tanks. The MBT project began in the 1970s, with the original plan envisaging deployment in the mid 1980s. However in view of critical changes in technologies over the years, the army’s requirements for the tank were also successfully altered and which in turn revised costs. 59 According to Indian defence industry sources, the chassis intended for the Arjun MBT has been plagued by technical problems and cost overruns. 60 Israeli expertise again can be found to be of great help in this area as Arjun is the counterpart of the Israeli tank, Merkava.

Missiles

India launched its ambitious, Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme in 1983. This programme involved design, development and production of five missile systems: Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) Agni, surface to surface missile, Prithvi, short range surface to air missile, Trishul, medium range surface to air missile Aakash and the anti tank missile, Nag. Israel has an impressive arsenal of indigenous missiles including ship to ship missile Gabriel, air to air missile Python, air to surface missile, Popeye, surface to surface missile, Jericho I and IRBM Jericho II. They were developed and some even deployed prior to India’s guided missile development programme in the early 1980s, and hence are more advanced and battle tested. 61

Israel is in a good position to help develop more effective and cost efficient missile defences. According to media reports, India is negotiating for Israeli missile technology to perfect the launching and guidance systems of the Prithvi, an indigenously developed surface-to-surface missile and also seeking Israeli help in electronics for its submarine launched Sagarika missile. 62


Navy

India and Israel are collaborating on IAI’s ‘super Dvora’ Mark II, Fast Attack Craft. In 1997, India purchased two Super Dvora Mark II attack boats and has been licenced to build another four. 64 It was followed by awarding the contract to IAI’s Ramta Division, Beersheba and Goa Shipyards limited for the production of the crafts. 65 It is reported that if India’s efforts towards fast patrol boats are successful, the two could jointly produce upto 80 boats for India’s Navy and Coast Guard. 66

According to other reports, Israeli firms have also upgraded electronic warfare equipments for the Indian Navy’s aircraft carrier, the INS Viraat. 67

Maritime surveillance: Israel has offered its advanced multimode maritime surveillance radar to the Indian Navy to counter the threat from the Pakistani naval fleet which is equipped with the US made P3C Orion maritime surveillance aircraft. David Traim, Deputy Director Elta Electronics of the IAI informed that a proposal offering the radar to the Navy has been submitted to the Indian Defence Ministry. The Israeli radar will largely meet the immediate requirements of the Navy and can be fitted on to patrol helicopters. 68

Nuclear Issue

After the nuclear explosion by India in May 1998, both India and Israel have come in for criticism and unsubstantiated charges about cooperation in the nuclear field have been tossed around. The Indian diplomats denied the speculation that Israel assisted India in the May tests 69 and regarded the allegations of Indo-Israeli cooperation in nuclear and missile fields as baseless. Ranjin Mathai, Indian Ambassador to Israel denied any relationship with Israel in the nuclear field. 70 The same was also denied by the External Affairs Ministry spokesman who stated that, “while India had interaction with Israel in various fields, they had nothing to do with its nuclear programme.” 71 Israel took the same stand. Alon Ben David, Israel’s Army affairs correspondent said–"It is important to stress that the defence ties between India and Israel did not deal with nuclear issues, only conventional arms export.” 72

So far as Israel’s response to India’s nuclear tests was concerned, Israel’s Foreign Ministry did not condemn India’s nuclear weapons test. The Foreign Ministry spokesman, Mr. Haim Koren refrained from issuing a special condemnation of Indian tests and refused to say whether Israel would impose sanctions on India or re-examine the close military ties between the two countries. 73 The Foreign Ministry of Israel however stated that “Israel has signed the CTBT that prohibits any nuclear weapons test explosions or any other nuclear explosion and we hope all states will become parties to this treaty.” 74 There is however a section in Israel which brought forth the view that India’s nuclear tests could indirectly pose a threat to Israel. According to Haifa University security specialist Professor Gabriel Ben-Dor, this was very bad for Israel from several points of view. “Firstly it raises the question of punitive US action against India which might, in the future, be considered a precedent for similar action against Israel. Secondly, the Indian tests are likely to give momentum to the Pakistani nuclear programme and give it more legitimacy... The Pakistani nuclear programme is supposed to be the source of the so called Islamic bomb.” 75 The same fear was expressed by David Bar Illan, spokesman for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, “We are worried that Pakistani tests will encourage Tehran and Baghdad to acquire nuclear weapons.” 76

Indo-Israel military cooperation did not seem to fade in the wake of nuclear explosions by India. According to a report, Israel was providing India with intelligence on Pakistan from its spy satellite. In return, India gave permission for Israeli military intelligence experts to undertake missions on Indian territory to monitor points of interest. 77 Also, the deal on AEE was made after the May tests.






Conclusion

India’s military needs are likely to grow. There are tremendous constraints on upgrading and modernising the armed forces. Though the Indian policy makers have decided to be self-sufficient in core technologies like missiles, tanks and air craft, there is a vast need for inputs, import of components and collaboration. Moreover, the cost of doing research and development can be crippling in economic terms.

There is a definite business potential for new entrants to supply military equipment to the Indian armed forces. Here, besides other countries, Israel is engaged in supplying India with state-of-the-art equipment and technologies. The biggest benefit of military cooperation with Israel can be in the areas of electronics, missile technology and intelligence. Israel has vast experience of fighting in both stony and sand dune waste areas. Given a similar desert terrain in India, a regular interaction between the two armies can be useful.

I

read full page of ino-israeli co-operation link:http://www.ciaonet.org/olj/sa/sa_aug00naf01.html
 

su-30mki

Banned Member
Admin: You must make an effort to try and clean up your posts before committing them to the forum. We are getting complaints that your failure to form proper responses, discarded characters (see prev post) and a tendency to type abbreviated english is detracting from what we regard as reasonable standards of posting compliance.

Please ensure that you fix your posts and use proper spelling and grammar in future.


.

contrary to popular belief, india is getting away from israel.

u must understand th edomestic potilitcs of india to know this.

under trmendous pressure from the left & islamic alliance, the UPA govt is being forced to keep safe distance from israel.

recently the left forcibly cancelled the purchase of SPYDER missilesf rom israel.

The 18 Spyder missiles, which can react quickly after locking on air targets, were contracted for about Rs.1,800 crore and would replace the made-in-India Russian-origin OSA-AKM and ZRK-BD Strela surface-to-air missile systems.

The fresh contract could be larger, possibly in the region of over Rs. 3,500 crores, said the sources.

.
U might know that India is launching isreali spy satellite but did u know that they had more options of launching their satellite yet they chose indian pslv?

n a controversial break from a longstanding military space policy of strategic self-reliance, Israel has decided to launch its next spy satellite aboard India's Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) rather than its own indigenous Shavit rocket.

Officials here say Israel's Ministry of Defense and state-owned satellite producer Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd. (IAI) are nearing conclusion with their Indian counterparts of all political and contractual agreements required for the planned October 2006 launch of the TechSAR, Israel's first synthetic aperture radar imaging satellite. On the government-to-government level, officials said, a pre-existing bilateral accord on strategic cooperation already covers most aspects of the mission.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Buying Harpys, building radars and a whole host of other cooperative ventures. That's a lot of rupees converting to shekels.
and assisting in SLCM development, MFD integration, MBT arty development, weapons systems integration....

sounds suspisciously like the Indians aren't keen to get engaged in serious work with the Israelis...... :rolleyes:
 

funtz

New Member
Its the charas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charas

The israeli kids coming in from the military service seem to love it.

On a more serious note, they will sell weapons and technology to whoever is interested, i think the US spoiled the party they were about to have with China.

India on the other hand is looking for sourcing more weapons from several contractors, and then there is the intelligence - extremist islam issue and the potential of mutual trade is better than Russia.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
this has arrived via my email as I'm on a private discussion group - the reference link has been provided by the original sender.

India, Singapore Sign Agreement For Long Term Military, Defense Arrangement
Dated: 10/9/2007

Original Source: India Defence Premium

URL: http://premium.*************.com

India and Singapore signed an agreement today on a long-term arrangement for conducting joint training and exercises between the Indian Air Force and the Republic of Singapore Air Force. The agreement was signed by the Defence Secretary Mr. Vijay Singh and Singapores Permanent Secretary of Defence, Mr. Chiang Chie Foo as the two-day 4th India-Singapore Defence Policy Dialogue began here today.

During the dialogue, both sides gave an update on India-Singapore defence
relations and expressed the need to further intensify cooperation. Sub-groups
reported progress made in respective fields including research & development.
The regional security aspects, both from Indian and Singaporean perspectives,
were discussed.

Singapore Leases Military Base In Eastern Mainland India For Five Years
Dated: 10/10/2007
Original Source: India Defence Premium
URL: http://premium.*************.com

India on Tuesday signed an agreement with Singapore which will allow the island nations air force personnel to train at the Indian Air Force base in
Kalaikunda, West Bengal, for the next five years.

Singapore is one of the worlds smallest countries, with its 704 square km
territory scattered across 60 islands. The countrys location affords it a
great geo-strategic significance. But to take advantage of that, Singapore
needs a well-trained military. And India is expected to play a crucial part in
fulfilling that demand.

According to Tuesdays agreement, Singapore Air Force fighters will train at
the IAF base at notified times. Although Singapore has already carried out such training missions in India, New Delhi has never leased out its military installations to foreign countries on a long-term basis.

A brief government statement announcing the agreement did not mention the terms of payment. Defence officials said a deal to train the Singapore Army in select Indian Army bases is being considered.

The agreement to lease Kalaikunda was signed by Indiaā?Ts defence secretary, Vijay Singh, and Singapores permanent secretary of defence Chiang Chie Foo.

Chiang is leading a delegation to India for the fourth India-Singapore
Defence Policy Dialogue.

During the dialogue, both sides expressed the need to intensify
cooperation, the statement said. The regional security aspect, from
Indian and Singaporean perspectives, were discussed.

----- End forwarded message -----
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
this has arrived via my email as I'm on a private discussion group - the reference link has been provided by the original sender.

India, Singapore Sign Agreement For Long Term Military, Defense Arrangement
Dated: 10/9/2007

Original Source: India Defence Premium

URL: http://premium.*************.com


----- End forwarded message -----
Hi Gary,

This is no private article... apparently, the site it came from belongs to "srirangan" (banned member here on DefenceTalk). The articles are widely available on indian, UPI and some European sites.

He copies stories from UPI, telegraphindia and others and sells the "intelligence" reports in the premium package (private part of the site), all hidden from the search engines... :rolleyes: Sorry but that sounds like a perfect con job to me.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hi Gary,

This is no private article... apparently, the site it came from belongs to "srirangan" (banned member here on DefenceTalk). The articles are widely available on indian, UPI and some European sites.

He copies stories from UPI, telegraphindia and others and sells the "intelligence" reports in the premium package (private part of the site), all hidden from the search engines... :rolleyes: Sorry but that sounds like a perfect con job to me.
ok, send me the details and I'll let the discussion group know. we get a fair bit of non searchable-OSINT on China as well, but I don't think it comes from him.
 

funtz

New Member
Here is the interesting bit most of the news papers reported this back in 2005, the RSAF was trying their to lease it,

The Telegraph, 10th November 2005
Singapore seeks airbase on hire (Sujan Dutta)
New Delhi, Nov 9: The Kalaikunda air force station is for hire. Singapore's air force has asked for use of its facilities and is negotiating a price with the indian government.

source: http://www.ipcs.org/
try them they keep all newspaper "sources" of information.

It might take them a day or two to update. Thats kindda the deal but they will quote all the sources.
 
Last edited:
Top