German Navy: Third Combat Support Ship instead of F125-Frigates?

[contedicavour]

Ok thks Kato this is perfectly clear. I understand the logic now.
Shame though that European navies can't find common ground on anti-shipping missiles, between MM40 latest block, Teseo Mk3, Harpoon III, RBS Mk3/4, NSM ... at least in air to air there is more standardization coming with Meteor and Iris-T (leaving the French aside with their MICAs).

cheers

 

[swerve]

Ok thks Kato this is perfectly clear. I understand the logic now.
Shame though that European navies can't find common ground on anti-shipping missiles, between MM40 latest block, Teseo Mk3, Harpoon III, RBS Mk3/4, NSM ... at least in air to air there is more standardization coming with Meteor and Iris-T (leaving the French aside with their MICAs).

cheers

And us with our Asraams.

 

[Waylander]

Not to talk of the bunch of Sidewinders and AMRAAMs floating around in various european countries...

 

[contedicavour]

Not to talk of the bunch of Sidewinders and AMRAAMs floating around in various european countries...

Yep but at least most countries will replace AIM9L with IRIS-T, Mica IR or Asraam. Same for Amraam that will be mostly replaced by Meteor...

cheers

 

[kato]

Best thread to tack this onto...

Inspector-General of the Navy Wolfgang Nolting has published a 4-page article (in German) in the magazine Europäische Sicherheit.

Some current developments, including confirmation of events:

• The third EGV has been included into budget planning (per BwPlan 2008). The navy expects to finish contract arrangements (including design changes) by April 2008, and propose procurement to parliament in Summer 2008. Planned commissioning would be 2012.
• NH90 NFH (MH90) requirement for the German Navy has been downsized to 30 helos. The navy is evaluating "alternatives" (including SLEP for the Sea Kings). The MH90 final order is still expected to be signed around late this year or early next year.
• Type 212A SSKs second batch has been ordered and is building, first delivery in 2008 (second 2012). Nolting emphasized that the SSKs are needed for conventional naval warfare, and that such a capacity is mandatory despite the current emphasis on asymmetric warfare.
• The commissioning of the first two K130 corvettes is "imminent" in his words (all that's been released so far was "sometime in 2007")
• The P-3C acquired from the Netherlands are still in preparation process at Nordholz airbase. The Navy expects to have one P-3C ready for deployment by the end of the year, and considers this "urgent". A likely deployment named is Horn of Africa in support of OEF-HoA, where a MPA has apparently been repeatedly requested by the US Navy.
• F125 - nothing new, same old vague stuff we've been hearing for the past half year.

And now for the big stuff. Nolting has added two new projects to the currently-under-development BwPlan 2009 (page 4 in the article).

• "Joint Support Ships", including military sealift capability. No details. And yes, "JSS" is the official project name.
• The successor project for the 10 Type 143A FACs - a class of six corvettes of a new type.

So, pretty much, the Navy is reviving ETrUS and MÜKE, at least on the concept table.

 

[harryriedl]

Best thread to tack this onto...

Inspector-General of the Navy Wolfgang Nolting has published a 4-page article (in German) in the magazine Europäische Sicherheit.

Some current developments, including confirmation of events:

• The third EGV has been included into budget planning (per BwPlan 2008). The navy expects to finish contract arrangements (including design changes) by April 2008, and propose procurement to parliament in Summer 2008. Planned commissioning would be 2012.
• NH90 NFH (MH90) requirement for the German Navy has been downsized to 30 helos. The navy is evaluating "alternatives" (including SLEP for the Sea Kings). The MH90 final order is still expected to be signed around late this year or early next year.how old are the German sea kings because both Canada and Australia have had huge problems with their fleet
• Type 212A SSKs second batch has been ordered and is building, first delivery in 2008 (second 2012). Nolting emphasized that the SSKs are needed for conventional naval warfare, and that such a capacity is mandatory despite the current emphasis on asymmetric warfare.
• The commissioning of the first two K130 corvettes is "imminent" in his words (all that's been released so far was "sometime in 2007")
• The P-3C acquired from the Netherlands are still in preparation process at Nordholz airbase. The Navy expects to have one P-3C ready for deployment by the end of the year, and considers this "urgent". A likely deployment named is Horn of Africa in support of OEF-HoA, where a MPA has apparently been repeatedly requested by the US Navy.
• F125 - nothing new, same old vague stuff we've been hearing for the past half year.

And now for the big stuff. Nolting has added two new projects to the currently-under-development BwPlan 2009 (page 4 in the article).

• "Joint Support Ships", including military sealift capability. No details. And yes, "JSS" is the official project name.[B]seems the Germans are interested in the Canada JSS concept i think that kind of ship would be perfect
• The successor project for the 10 Type 143A FACs - a class of six corvettes of a new type.

So, pretty much, the Navy is reviving ETrUS and MÜKE, at least on the concept table.

very interesting shame about the NH90 orders being cut

 

[Navor86]

In which Dimensions is Müke.
Corvette sounds like an enchanced K130 Project. But I always thought that Mpke was something like MEKO D

 

[kato]

In which Dimensions is Müke.
Corvette sounds like an enchanced K130 Project. But I always thought that Mpke was something like MEKO D

MÜKE was always a light frigate. Medium Surface Combatant, after all. I'd say we'll be either looking at an enhanced K130, or at a MEKO CSL derivative. Something between 2,000 and 2,500 tons. Maybe a K130 with a helo hangar and some other little improvements. MEKO D is slightly too big.

TKMS puts the MEKO CSL in their corvette "product portfolio" (along with Visby and K130), despite its dimensions. Dimensions for CSL are 108.8m overall length, 2,750 tons full load, the specs seem somewhat tailored to LCS requirements though. More of a frigate than a corvette.

That Nolting uses the term "corvette" is of course political. Buying almost-frigate-sized FAC replacements under the term "corvette" is ok, increasing the actual frigate fleet at the lower end is not.

 

[Navor86]

And what about weapons?How many VLS,which Gund and Torpedoes?

 

[kato]

Don't expect details before the stuff actually approaches the order stage.

 

[Falstaff]

Thanks for the article!

[*]NH90 NFH (MH90) requirement for the German Navy has been downsized to 30 helos. The navy is evaluating "alternatives" (including SLEP for the Sea Kings). The MH90 final order is still expected to be signed around late this year or early next year.

This really is a shame, esp. as the MH-90 has been considered priority program for quite some time. Given the problems he mentioned (radar, navigation) I'm pretty sure good ol' sea king will be around for some years to come...

[*]Type 212A SSKs second batch has been ordered and is building, first delivery in 2008 (second 2012). Nolting emphasized that the SSKs are needed for conventional naval warfare, and that such a capacity is mandatory despite the current emphasis on asymmetric warfare.

Now this is new to me. IIRC last thing I heard was these were to be comissioned in 2013/14. Can this be correct?

[*]The P-3C acquired from the Netherlands are still in preparation process at Nordholz airbase. The Navy expects to have one P-3C ready for deployment by the end of the year, and considers this "urgent". A likely deployment named is Horn of Africa in support of OEF-HoA, where a MPA has apparently been repeatedly requested by the US Navy.

The Marine is being careful as always... I'm wondering about what the Marine going to do next: Apparently, the 8 stop-gap P-3Cs are not enough to fulfill all tasks and as Nolting mentions, these days our equipment tends to wear out much quicker than planned. So what might be the plan? Acquire further surplus Orions (e.g. from the US), modify them with lots of money? Or perhaps, as these used MPAs won't live forever, consider new programs such as the proposed A319 MPA?

[*]"Joint Support Ships", including military sealift capability. No details. And yes, "JSS" is the official project name.

Poor Waylander... he ain't gonna like this one (I presented some indications for them in post #59 from march this year). Now that they'll be part of the BW-plan, I'm very interested in what has to be sacrificed for them.

[*]The successor project for the 10 Type 143A FACs - a class of six corvettes of a new type.

This is completely new to me. But seriously, do you expect these new corvettes to be bigger and "enhanced"? My first thought was that these new corvettes will be smaller and simplified and much cheaper compared to the Braunschweig-class. My guess would be that given the Marine's experiences with the F-124's complexity and the F-125's "lack of innovation" with very clear indications towards the Visby class, any new corvette will be more like a mixture of Visby and Braunschweig. Your thoughts?

 

[kato]

Now this is new to me. IIRC last thing I heard was these were to be comissioned in 2013/14. Can this be correct?

I heard 2012/2013.
Considering the contract for these two subs was only signed in September 2006, i'd really, really doubt 2008 though. U31 had 33 months from first steel cut to launch, with delivery another 12 months later and commissioning a further 17 months down the line after trials. So, while delivery in Dec 2009 would probably be possible (without any improvements though), 2008 definitely wouldn't.
Maybe he meant that work on U35/U36 would start 2008?

Apparently, the 8 stop-gap P-3Cs are not enough to fulfill all tasks and as Nolting mentions, these days our equipment tends to wear out much quicker than planned.

Well, they were only planned for a remaining service life of about 10-15 years or so anyway. Meaning, if something new is going to be procured, it will have to appear on the plans sometime in the next 5 years.

This is completely new to me. But seriously, do you expect these new corvettes to be bigger and "enhanced"? My first thought was that these new corvettes will be smaller and simplified and much cheaper compared to the Braunschweig-class. My guess would be that given the Marine's experiences with the F-124's complexity and the F-125's "lack of innovation" with very clear indications towards the Visby class, any new corvette will be more like a mixture of Visby and Braunschweig. Your thoughts?

Well, some indications should be clear:

• MÜKE will cost more than K130. Clear indication through price development on the market.
• 95% chance that ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems will build them, as primary contractor in a similar setup with other shipyards as with K130 (5% for Lürssen )
• TKMS' primary future sales setup in that category is MEKO CSL, which combines MEKO with Visby technology (well, for marketing, anyway).
• I'd presume that before any design concepts are fixed, the Marine will wait for at least 2 years of "experience" from K130.
• Experience from F124 (re complexity) will probably lead to a bit more streamlined contract rules and measures like that. Like the CMS contracted out to a single company for all units this time, hopefully.
• Unless we're downsizing the stabilization forces, the new corvettes would replace the Type 143A in these. Meaning the requirements will probably somewhat closely match those of K130 (also in the stabilization forces), with improvements.
• Some other stuff also hints more at a "K130 evolution", than a "revolution". That part with the increased use of unmanned systems, for example.

 

[Waylander]

Great, the navy is again trying to get it's ETrUS.

Maybe they should also plan to expand the SEK-M by one or two bns...

I thought that the equipment of the K130s has already been reduced to keep the costs low. I don't see the money problem being fixed very soon and they want to replace the FACs with improved corvettes? Why not just build more K130s from the beginning.

Don't downsize their capabilities and let the increased numbers keep the price lower.

 

[kato]

Great, the navy is again trying to get it's ETrUS.

Maybe they should also plan to expand the SEK-M by one or two bns...

Nah, ETrUs, errr JSS is supposed to carry Heer units.

I thought that the equipment of the K130s has already been reduced to keep the costs low. I don't see the money problem being fixed very soon and they want to replace the FACs with improved corvettes? Why not just build more K130s from the beginning.

Don't downsize their capabilities and let the increased numbers keep the price lower.

Over on WHQ someone quoted some "internal rumours" saying that the "direction is towards something like LCS" (which CSL is pretty much designed for).

And the K130 equipment was reduced because it didn't work/exist, at least within a manageable budget (Polyphem, drones)

 

[Waylander]

I know that they intend to carry Heer units.
We had some discussions about this earlier in this thread.
My point is that our light infantry forces are already stretched and before we field something like ETrUS, errrh JSS, we need to expand these forces or at least conslidate them.

And that they skipped some of the equipment for K130, the mentioned drones and Polyphem, due to budget reasons is for sure not going to change for a new or evolved class of corvettes.
The new corvette pogram will also be under budget pressure.

 

[kato]

My point is that our light infantry forces are already stretched and before we field something like ETrUS, errrh JSS, we need to expand these forces or at least conslidate them.

They'd probably just botch together a new regiment from existing forces and equipment - just like with Jägerregiment 1 (luftbeweglich), which pretty much takes existing light infantry and mechanized infantry as manpower, and mixes it with equipment redistributed from the paratrooper battalions.

 

[Waylander]

That's exactly what I am afraid of. This is not going to help solving the infantry problem.

We would struggle to field one bn of Gebirgsjäger on an oversea deployment out of our three existing ones due to them being undermanned and still heavily use concripts.
And while the other light infantry formations look better they are thinly stretched with pngoing oversea deployments and providing forces for NATO and EU quick response formations.

 

[Falstaff]

Over on WHQ someone quoted some "internal rumours" saying that the "direction is towards something like LCS" (which CSL is pretty much designed for).

And what exactly is that supposed to mean?
More speed? Although the K-130 isn't the hottest rod out on the water, due to budetary reasons I guess we'll have to stick with a pure diesel arrangement and although with a delta shaped hull and waterjet drive there will be few knots to gain, we'll be nowhere near 45-50 knots.
More stealth? Sure, there's potential. And as Kockums is now part of the family, there's much to exploit. But: The Visby deals survivability for stealth and I don't know if the Marine is ready for a "plastic" ship yet. IIRC (from the MEKON 2006 documents) the MEKO CSL will be exactly that.
As far as weapons and sensors are concerned I doubt there will be a revolutionary different approach to the K-130. Drones and a second ASuM will be on the wish list, but...
The internal layout (e.g. integrated bridge) of the K-130 is absolutely top-notch and doesn't need to be changed but slightly enhanced.

 

[kato]

And what exactly is that supposed to mean?

Modules? *brr*

Speed... seriously, i've never understood why the LCS absolutely needs 45 knots. I mean, it's not gonna race after speedboats anyway. And for deploying in the first place, the energy/fuel needs at such speeds make them absolutely useless.

Well, i think it's mostly about size. Stuff like being able to carry the containerized infantry mission center that's planned on the F125. Additional accomodation. Maybe a real helo hangar. If you add those onto the K130 design (increasing its size maybe 20-25%), and give it some stealth features, we're almost there.

 

[Waylander]

Why should we need a real helo hangar if we don't get the MH90s to operate them from it?

I just don't see the real benefits?

Why not procuring more K130? By doing that the individual system price could be reduced and so more nice items could be fitted into the ships (Drones, Polyphem,...).