German accounting authorities complain on F125 costs

[contedicavour]

I've read on the meretmarine.com site that the German accounting oversight office has complained about the costs of the 4 F125 : well above 2 billion euros.
Could this change anything ?
The article also says the Netherlands are interested in F125. This is new for me.

cheers

 

[kato]

I've read on the meretmarine.com site that the German accounting oversight office has complained about the costs of the 4 F125 : well above 2 billion euros.
Could this change anything ?

Nope, not really. The Bundesrechnungshof's (BRH) criticism in this case is mainly directed towards some rather quirky contract clauses - for example, 81% of the overall (!) payment has to be paid with delivery of the first unit. In general, they criticize the contract as "too industry-friendly". In addition, in their opinion, the government didn't follow proper tendering requirements.

The BRH has no power in this. Their function actually is to criticize about anything the government spends money on, that's why they were created. They then direct a statement back to the office they are criticizing (in this case it went to the Haushaltsausschuss about to sign the contract, i think), and that's about it for proceedings. The office's role is to give government institutions a separate opinion to be regarded on spending.

The article also says the Netherlands are interested in F125. This is new for me.

New to me too. Though it would make limited sense as a land-attack alternative to FREMM on the market. Not that the Netherlands would need that, considering they operate TacTom from their LCF.

 

[contedicavour]

Thks for the fast answer Kato

I was thinking that the Dutch could replace the 2 remaining Doormans around 2015-2020 with Type 125. They do have a long tradition of joint programmes with Germany (Kortenaer-F122, similarities between LCF and F124...)

cheers

 

[kato]

They do have a long tradition of joint programmes with Germany (Kortenaer-F122, similarities between LCF and F124...)

The Netherlands are of course heavily involved in German ship development in general now - due to Thales NL being the default electronics provider nowadays.

About 20% of the money from the F125 contract will go to "foreign contributors" to the program - meaning Thales, primarily.

I doubt the Netherlands would go for a straight F125 build. Too many dissimilarities with existing equipment. If they procured such a ship, it would be a considerably different design with similar basic specs and a similar role.
Along the lines of a similar hull with CODOG instead of CODLAG, different superstructure due to different requirements, no RAM, no builtin INT systems (RESM, CESM), maybe a stern ramp/crane design for LCVP instead of the side-mounted dinghis similar to Absalon (requiring significant internal rearrangement)...

 

[harryriedl]

New to me too. Though it would make limited sense as a land-attack alternative to FREMM on the market. Not that the Netherlands would need that, considering they operate TacTom from their LCF.

I thought i read on this site that the TacToms were cancelled to pay for A-Stan

 

[kato]

I thought i read on this site that the TacToms were cancelled to pay for A-Stan

"Postponed". Wait for the next center-right government ;-). And the money won't be spent on A-Stan, but "recruitment and retention of personnel".

 

[Falstaff]

I've read on the meretmarine.com site that the German accounting oversight office has complained about the costs of the 4 F125 : well above 2 billion euros.
Could this change anything ?
The article also says the Netherlands are interested in F125. This is new for me.

cheers

Not surprising at all, IIRC the price tag earned a lot of critizism from all sides and shortly before the contract was signed some navy officials complained about the lack of innovation in the design. And indeed, 2 billion € is a lot of cash for 4 ships, even if you include R&D. It'll be very interesting if these ships keep what the concept "stabilization frigate" promises. A unique type of vessel, but is it the right path to follw? We'll see.

It's new for me, too, that the Netherlands might be interested. Funny though, as one major concern about the F-125 design was that it is not attractive for export

 

[contedicavour]

Well well, Tactom and SM-2 IV ATBM... the Dutch navy may have shrunk by half vs 10 years ago but at least it will be incredibly well equipped !!
Focusing on a F125-kind ship would be coherent with the emphasis on amphibious operations the Dutch are putting with their Rotterdam LPDs.

cheers

 

[kato]

Focusing on a F125-kind ship would be coherent with the emphasis on amphibious operations the Dutch are putting with their Rotterdam LPDs.

I don't know, i still see the F125 class as a ship whose conceptual development was screwed by lack of a focus role.
With the development vision bumbling around from "F122 replacement" to "land-attack destroyer" to "patrol ship" to "humanitarian assistance armed freighter" to "asymmetric warfare naval base" to ... "a bit of all the above". With the aside that most of the current role mix was only worked out really after ETruS was dropped (the German LPD project).

 

[Waylander]

I mean, what can one expect for half a billion € per ship?

Is it gold plated? Do they plan to integrate something really, really special nobody ever heard of before?

This is so much money they better come out with something really advanced or I will be really *peeeep*.
Our armed forces are nearly bancrupt and they will spent 2 billion € on four ships...

 

[Galrahn]

I saw that article too.

The cost makes sense to me, this is not exactly a small ship, and it isn't like a number of other European warships which build to a high commercial standard, but not quite full military standard in some cases to reduce costs. The F125 from what I can tell is built to fight, take a hit, and keep going. The cost of redundancy for modern warships isn't cheap, but when you go all out on redundancy and stealth, don't expect it to be cheap.

The Dutch angle was also knew to me, but then I remembered the 127mm projectiles are being produced by the Italians and the Dutch. Not sure if it means anything, but as Kato pointed out, the Dutch have touch on this project one way or the other anyway.

 

[Falstaff]

In regards to the price tag:

- As a production engineer I have to say it's common knowledge that the more durable you want to build something the more expensive it is to build. So maybe one major cost driver is the demand for being able to stay on station for two years without major techincal support (without planned "Werftliegezeit"). For a system as complex as a modern warship that's a lot of time. Complexity + durability = costs
- As Galrahn and kato mentioned, the F 125 is a bit of everything: it will a big ship (~6800 tons, ~143 metres) with a lot of roles to fulfill. And besides the stabilization aspect concerning asymmetrical warfare there still is the traditional demand for a ship that's very capable in symmetrical warfare too which affects sensors and weapons as well as stability of the hull itself. Germany traditionally performs some of the toughest tests ("Ansprengtests") for it's hulls.
- As far as innovation is concerned I'm pretty sure that apart from the known issues with weaponry and the critizism regarding the design there will be some very innovative solutions on this ship.

However, one has to ask if 1-2 modified multi-role F-124s and perhaps a OTS LPD would have made more sense.

 

[kato]

However, one has to ask if 1-2 modified multi-role F-124s and perhaps a OTS LPD would have made more sense.

Only if we got the 15 originally planned K-130. Simply for the hull count.

 

[contedicavour]

I mean, what can one expect for half a billion € per ship?

Is it gold plated? Do they plan to integrate something really, really special nobody ever heard of before?

This is so much money they better come out with something really advanced or I will be really *peeeep*.
Our armed forces are nearly bancrupt and they will spent 2 billion € on four ships...

Nowadays a DDG costs 800 million euro per ship, and an advanced FFG around 500... sorry for you pro-army folks

cheers

 

[Waylander]

I have no problem with spending a lot of money on new ships, when they come out with a very advanced and capable ship.
We need new ships.


But I have a problem with doing this while the Bundeswehr as a whole is close to being bancrupt...
If nobody plans to increase the budget I think that the priorities are a little bot wrong.

But this is just MHO.

 

[kato]

If nobody plans to increase the budget I think that the priorities are a little bot wrong.

Priorities are always relative. The Marine e.g. actually sees a capability gap in theater ballistic missile defense. Wouldn't really be on my priority list at all, with regard to the direction the Marine is supposed to take officially.

 

[Waylander]

Theater ballistic missile defense?
Upgrade the Patriots, that's it.
Maybe give the Sachsens the ability to fire SM-3.

What more do they want?

 

[kato]

What more do they want?

Other stuff?

(New) anti-ship missiles for helos, for example (planned and funded in BwPlan 2008).
Never mind that there are missiles for the Sea Kings in stocks - not issued, since the capability is seen as not needed. Gives me a "huh?" too.

 

[Waylander]

I only referred to the proposed gap in missile defence.

We have the assets (Patriot and F124) to field a ABM capability for sure big enough for our needs.

That there is much more other stuff on the wish list of every service is for sure.
I just question if the part of the cake the navy gets isn't a bid big in the light of our budget problems.

 

[kato]

We have the assets (Patriot and F124) to field a ABM capability for sure big enough for our needs.

No, we don't. We don't have any SM-3 for the F124. That's what they want.
And PAC-3 interceptors for the Luftwaffe will also not be ordered in full quantity btw.

Of course the US Navy also only has had 23 SM-3 missiles delivered, with 9 fired in tests, so far. Each SM-3 missile currently comes at around $4 million (SM-2 Block IIIA for comparison: $1 million per missile).