AFP attack helicopter acquisition

[TanaTana]

Due to the budget strain of the AFP, the Z-9 n Mi-35 would be a reasonable choice. I would rather opt for the Mi-35, due to its protection against small arms capability. AFP is not facing a conventional war, most of their ops are Counter Insurgency agains the Muslim rebel in the south. Mi-35 carrying rocket pods or gun pods is more suitable for these type of operations. Furthermore it can carry 8 troops in its cabin. And with little modification, it can also be used as a CSAR platform.




Mi-35M
Upgraded night-capable version of the Mi-24/35. It is the export counterpart of the Mi-24M. It was designed to meet the latest air mobility requirements of the Russian Army. Features include Mi-28 main and tail rotors and transmission. 1,636 kW (2,194 shp) Klimov TV3-117VMA engines. New avionics, a reduced empty weight resulting from a new titanium main rotor head, composites rotor blades, shortened stub-wings and non-retractable landing gear. A 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel gun in a nose turret, with 470 rounds, up to 16 radio-guided 9M114 (AT-6 ‘Spiral”), or laser-guided 9M-120 anti-tank, 9M-120F blast fragmentation or 9A-220 air-to-air versions of Ataka (AT-12) missile or a range of armament options including GUV gun/grenade pods, UPK-23-250 gun pods, B-8V-20A and B-13L rocket pods, S-24B rockets and KMGU pods of anti-armour and anti-personnel mines. The Night Operation Capable Avionics System (NOCAS) by Sextant Avionique and Thomson-TTD Optronic integrates a Chlio FLIR ball with a TMM-1410 display, providing night vision for target acquisition and identification, missile guidance and gun aiming. Other equipment includes a VH-100 HUD, NVGs, liquid-crystal MFD, Nadir 10 mission management and navigation system, laser-gyro INS and GPS. The FLIR ball is mounted outboard of the standard missile guidance pod. Ability to carry Igla V air-to-air missiles is optional.

 

[adroth]

The Huey Cobra would have been the logical choice. The Cobra would have allowed the Philippine Air Force to leverage existing experience with the Huey. The advantage of reduced training cycles cannot be overstated.

If we had gotten the version of the AH-1 that used the same engine as the Huey II, then that would result of even more savings because it would simplify inventory management.

 

[adroth]

The five-man delegation from the Philippine Air Force, led by the PAF Vice Commander, has returned from a tour of the Harbin helicopter manufacturing facility to evaluate the Zhi-9 (Dauphin, under license).

No purchase decision has yet been made.

Quite a number of us are dreading this.

 

[tphuang]

The five-man delegation from the Philippine Air Force, led by the PAF Vice Commander, has returned from a tour of the Harbin helicopter manufacturing facility to evaluate the Zhi-9 (Dauphin, under license).

No purchase decision has yet been made.

Quite a number of us are dreading this.

why? Z-9G is under wide usage in PLA. You are getting a new helo that will remain in PLA for a while, so you will have no problem getting spares + training and such. The engine is no longer an issue with Arriel-2c. From what I saw, it has a nice modern cockpit with a TV/IRST turret (allowing for night/all weather capability) and carries up to 8 ATGMs. The major strikes against it are its size and armor protection. Actually, I read the report and it talked about another cheaper helicopter. That ones seems to be Z-11, which is also being evaluated by Argentina.

 

[adroth]

why?

Because this will add complexity to the logistical chain and training cycle. Something we can ill afford considering the state of the internal conflict, and how tight the budgetary situation already is.

New engines; new systems; on which our pilots and ground crews will have to be trained. A lot of time must pass from the time money changes hands, to when the boots on the ground will feel the benefits of this aircraft. The COIN war is heating up again, and we need these birds in service ASAP.

We are better off getting more of what we already have, or getting improved aircraft that are based on what we already have. This is why a lot of us actually preferred one of the following options:

-> getting the second-hand Cobras that the PhAF already evaluated last year. It uses the same engine that's used in our Huey IIs (the PhAF is now able to able to upgrade its UH-1H in-house btw). Furthermore, many of our personnel have already been exposed to this type over the years.

-> getting more MD520, or possibly more powerful but still similar MD530s. The MD520 is currently the PhAF's main gunship.

One option that has recently become viable is to simply fund rehabilitation efforts on existing aircraft. In the past two years, the PAF has brought back two of its S-76s back to life.

There are so many other more sensible, practical, useful-now, options to getting the Zhi-9. This is not the time to be experimenting with new equipment . . . from a non-traditional supplier (no offense).

 

[tphuang]

Because this will add complexity to the logistical chain and training cycle. Something we can ill afford considering the state of the internal conflict, and how tight the budgetary situation already is.

New engines; new systems; on which our pilots and ground crews will have to be trained. A lot of time must pass from the time money changes hands, to when the boots on the ground will feel the benefits of this aircraft. The COIN war is heating up again, and we need these birds in service ASAP.

We are better off getting more of what we already have, or getting improved aircraft that are based on what we already have. This is why a lot of us actually preferred one of the following options:

-> getting the second-hand Cobras that the PhAF already evaluated last year. It uses the same engine that's used in our Huey IIs (the PhAF is now able to able to upgrade its UH-1H in-house btw). Furthermore, many of our personnel have already been exposed to this type over the years.

-> getting more MD520, or possibly more powerful but still similar MD530s. The MD520 is currently the PhAF's main gunship.

One option that has recently become viable is to simply fund rehabilitation efforts on existing aircraft. In the past two years, the PAF has brought back two of its S-76s back to life.

There are so many other more sensible, practical, useful-now, options to getting the Zhi-9. This is not the time to be experimenting with new equipment . . . from a non-traditional supplier.

Z-9 is in mass production in China, so the delivery schedule shouldn't be a concern.

As for non-traditional supplier, I think due to its geographical proximity, China will be a major supplier to Phillipines in the future. As for getting a new piece of equipment, well you have to do it eventually. Without knowing the cost of maintaining Z-9 and training Z-9 pilots, it's premature to say how much extra getting Z-9 will cost. Also, again, Z-9 will be around long after UH-1 retires from US service. Do you really want to keep operating a fleet after the main operator no longer operates it?

As for gunship, I'm sure Z-9 can do the job a lot better than MD-520. In the recent peace mission 2007, I think the word was that it did really well.

 

[adroth]

Z-9 is in mass production in China, so the delivery schedule shouldn't be a concern.

As for non-traditional supplier, I think due to its geographical proximity, China will be a major supplier to Phillipines in the future. As for getting a new piece of equipment, well you have to do it eventually. Without knowing the cost of maintaining Z-9 and training Z-9 pilots, it's premature to say how much extra getting Z-9 will cost. Also, again, Z-9 will be around long after UH-1 retires from US service. Do you really want to keep operating a fleet after the main operator no longer operates it?

As for gunship, I'm sure Z-9 can do the job a lot better than MD-520. In the recent peace mission 2007, I think the word was that it did really well.

You raised two very good points:

- Availability
- Capability

I also agree that we will eventually have to upgrade to newer equipment. Preferably non-US equipment (it is not healthy to be dependent on one supplier). There are many other sources, to include China.

This, however, is not the time. We are concerned about the time between today, and when we will indeed be able to afford to acquire new weapons systems.

For the interim, many of us feel that the systems I mentioned are best suited to our needs now, and the immediate future. We must win the battles today, so that we will survive as a nation tomorrow. To do that, we must use our resources efficiently and effectively.

 

[adroth]

Looks like we're going with the MD530. More capable than the MD520s we already have, but still close enough in terms of overall so will be able to leverage existing skills sets.

Reason prevailed.

However the door hasn't been shut on Chinese equipment in other areas.

 

[tphuang]

if you can read Chinese
http://www.zaobao.com/yx/yx070906_506.html
this claims that China has sold 8 helos to Phillipines, didn't state the helicopter, said it cost 3 billion peso

 

[adroth]

if you can read Chinese
http://www.zaobao.com/yx/yx070906_506.html
this claims that China has sold 8 helos to Phillipines, didn't state the helicopter, said it cost 3 billion peso

Thanks for the heads up. :flash

The following Babelfish translation cites that the Chinese were "willing" to sell helos (http://www.zaobao.com/yx/yx070906_506.html). The title, however, implies that they have already been sold.

The Commanding General of the PhAF, announced the other day that the attack helicopter bid had already gone to MD Helicopters for the MD530s.

The article above could either be late, or be another purchase entirely. Utility helicopters perhaps.

 

[adroth]

Mid this year, we thought we'd be getting brand new MD-530F/AH6 choppers. Looks like that ain't happening because the PAF is re-opening the bid.

The probably means the Chinese Zhi-9G is back in play.

== ~~ ==

http://philstar.com/index.php?Headlines&p=49&type=2&sec=24&aid=20071230127

AFP sets new bid for new helicopters
Monday, December 31, 2007

The Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) has decided to disregard an earlier bidding for suppliers of night-capable attack helicopters after President Arroyo ordered the release of P5 billion for the purchase of more aircraft, a ranking military official said.

. . .

The P5 billion that was released by the President is part of the funding for the capability upgrade program of the AFP, intended to modernize the ill-equipped military to enable it to meet the 2010 deadline set by their commander-in-chief to crush the 39-year-old communist insurgency and the al-Qaeda-linked Abu Sayyaf.

In an interview, Romero said they are set to conduct another bidding for the procurement of night-capable attack helicopters that would be worth P3.2 billion instead of P1.2 billion, which was earlier earmarked for its purchase.

 

[qwerty223]

I would go for hind, cheap mass fire power gunship is what the Philippines need. Need no precision weapon.

 

[tphuang]

Mid this year, we thought we'd be getting brand new MD-530F/AH6 choppers. Looks like that ain't happening because the PAF is re-opening the bid.

The probably means the Chinese Zhi-9G is back in play.

== ~~ ==

http://philstar.com/index.php?Headlines&p=49&type=2&sec=24&aid=20071230127

AFP sets new bid for new helicopters
Monday, December 31, 2007

The Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) has decided to disregard an earlier bidding for suppliers of night-capable attack helicopters after President Arroyo ordered the release of P5 billion for the purchase of more aircraft, a ranking military official said.

. . .

The P5 billion that was released by the President is part of the funding for the capability upgrade program of the AFP, intended to modernize the ill-equipped military to enable it to meet the 2010 deadline set by their commander-in-chief to crush the 39-year-old communist insurgency and the al-Qaeda-linked Abu Sayyaf.

In an interview, Romero said they are set to conduct another bidding for the procurement of night-capable attack helicopters that would be worth P3.2 billion instead of P1.2 billion, which was earlier earmarked for its purchase.

so are you guys still looking for both an attack helo and an utility helo?

 

[adroth]

From the looks of it, yes.

The PAF already had a stated goal of maintaining a minimum of 100 operational light utility helicopters at any given time to support current operations. With the President's 2010 deadline for significantly reducing the insurgency looming, the AFP's operating tempo is being stepped up.

Based on the CG PAF's statements . . . which emphasized building on existing skills . . . this probably actually means more Hueys. Whether this means more suplus, or acquisitions of the newer models (the latest we have are the Bell 412s) is the main question.

The attack helicopter requirement, however, is the wild card. This is probably where things will get more interesting.

=== ~~~ ===

Regarding buying Russian, that'll be difficult. Most of our existing infrastructure (e.g., testing equipment, etc.) are all geared towards western equipment. Buying from Roboexport will mean not only buying the assets, but a whole new set of equipment as well. This won't be cheap / cost effective.

 

[kay_man]

From the looks of it, yes.

The PAF already had a stated goal of maintaining a minimum of 100 operational light utility helicopters at any given time to support current operations. With the President's 2010 deadline for significantly reducing the insurgency looming, the AFP's operating tempo is being stepped up.

Based on the CG PAF's statements . . . which emphasized building on existing skills . . . this probably actually means more Hueys. Whether this means more suplus, or acquisitions of the newer models (the latest we have are the Bell 412s) is the main question.

The attack helicopter requirement, however, is the wild card. This is probably where things will get more interesting.

=== ~~~ ===

Regarding buying Russian, that'll be difficult. Most of our existing infrastructure (e.g., testing equipment, etc.) are all geared towards western equipment. Buying from Roboexport will mean not only buying the assets, but a whole new set of equipment as well. This won't be cheap / cost effective.

Another good option would be buying the Indian Dhruv light helos. They have already been exported to many counties.
They can also be adapted to attack roles with some modifications.
I dont think India has made a bid though........pro american lobby must be very strong.

 

[gforce]

Yesterday's local Philippine Star newspaper reported that the current Philippine Defense Secretary Nograles is stepping-up efforts in acquiring refurbished Huey Cobra night attack helicopters from Israel for the Philippine Air Force before he resigns in June 30, 2010.

The acquisition will be made via a government-to-government transaction.

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=575688&publicationSubCategoryId=63

OT: The Philippine Navy will also be acquiring 1-2 navy vessels from either Singapore or South Korea as part of the above transaction.

 

[ManilaBoy]

The aquisition of 8 CUH from Poland (W-3WA) Sokols is a done deal, and delivery of the units is schedule by 1st quarter of 2011 if everything is on time...

 

[T.C.P]

The hind would be great for Phillipine,unlike its successor the Mi-28, the Mi-24 can carry troops as well. Not to mention that the Mi-35 night attack helo's pack a hell lot of fire power and are not so easily susceptible to shoulder launched MANPADs. If you are looking for a cheaper solution then, you can try the Mi-17sh, Like the Bangladeshi air force.