La Fayette class frigates and VL Crotale

[Spacearrow99]

La Fayette's may recieve vertical launched Crotale VT-1 missiles during their midlife refits. This proposed project wold make much sense; it would be really cheap.



(Janes) August 29 2007

 

[contedicavour]

La Fayette's may recieve vertical launched Crotale VT-1 missiles during their midlife refits. This proposed project wold make much sense; it would be really cheap.



(Janes) August 29 2007

Short of installing Aster-15s and Arabel or Herakles I don't see other alternatives than updating Crotale...

cheers

 

[Andy in West Oz]

They've certainly got room for Aster and the Saudis and Singaporeans have fitted them from new I think. At least they're not down right dodgy like what I've read of the Taiwanese ships (antiquated missile system, corruption etc)!

 

[contedicavour]

They've certainly got room for Aster and the Saudis and Singaporeans have fitted them from new I think. At least they're not down right dodgy like what I've read of the Taiwanese ships (antiquated missile system, corruption etc)!

Yes but they just as much certainly lack the money to install Aster and Arabel or Herakles... hence the Crotale VL

cheers

 

[kato]

Sidenote:

Only the launch system would change really. The LaFayettes are already equipped with Crotale NG-VT1, which has been standard on Crotales since the mid/late 90s at least.

The question is really just whether to go with Thales/DCN (VL Crotale) or MBDA (VL Mica), if we're talking upgrades in this kind of price range (i.e. below Aster 15).

Since the LaFayettes are already fitted with the entire fire control electronics for Crotale VT1, i'd bet on that if there is an upgrade at all.

Edit: Something about cost - a single 8-cell Sylver A43 module apparently goes for between 3.0 to 3.2 million euro. Just for the launch module with associated systems.

 

[contedicavour]

Sidenote:



Edit: Something about cost - a single 8-cell Sylver A43 module apparently goes for between 3.0 to 3.2 million euro. Just for the launch module with associated systems.

Yes that's correct, but having Asters with no new generation radar such as Herakles would be quite useless. You would have to develop illuminators to guide the missiles (while Arabel, Herakles, Empar guide the missiles besides providing air search functions)

cheers

 

[kato]

Yes that's correct, but having Asters with no new generation radar such as Herakles would be quite useless. You would have to develop illuminators to guide the missiles (while Arabel, Herakles, Empar guide the missiles besides providing air search functions)

cheers

I was thinking more about above possibility of "quadpacked" (or dual-packed) Crotale VT1 in shortened Sylver A43.
As the Lafayettes are fitted with the entire fire control systems for Crotale VT1, it would probably be possible to upgrade to VL Crotale for less than 8-10 million euro per unit (as long as the quadpack idea was actually already realized in DCN's engineering department).

 

[contedicavour]

I was thinking more about above possibility of "quadpacked" (or dual-packed) Crotale VT1 in shortened Sylver A43.
As the Lafayettes are fitted with the entire fire control systems for Crotale VT1, it would probably be possible to upgrade to VL Crotale for less than 8-10 million euro per unit (as long as the quadpack idea was actually already realized in DCN's engineering department).

Ah ok If I get it right you are looking for a way to VLS-launch the Crotale NG ? Good idea, even if the absence of a Herakles type radar/illuminator will reduce the number of missiles you can control in flight simultaneously to the n° of illuminators.
Anwyay I doubt the French will spend money on this. Priorities are elsewhere, from carrier to SSN to FREMM...

cheers

 

[swerve]

I was thinking more about above possibility of "quadpacked" (or dual-packed) Crotale VT1 in shortened Sylver A43.
As the Lafayettes are fitted with the entire fire control systems for Crotale VT1, it would probably be possible to upgrade to VL Crotale for less than 8-10 million euro per unit (as long as the quadpack idea was actually already realized in DCN's engineering department).

Sounds like a good idea, if someone pays for development. Big if.

 

[kato]

Sounds like a good idea, if someone pays for development. Big if.

Yeah. The original Quadrax 8-cell launcher for VL-VT1 is not based on Sylver itself, but was developed in joint development between DCN and the Russian company Fakel.

Depending on the size (width), there might be some chance that you could reuse the Quadrax quadpacks in a Sylver launcher. The Sylver A43 cells, afaik, are 56x56 cm which would be a rather tight fit. I'd suspect something between 55x55 to max 60x60 for each quadpack (Quadrax two-cell launcher with framework is 1.3x90cm deckspace).

Maybe just use the original Quadrax launchers, and install them in the space left free for the Sylver. The cost of a full Sylver launcher could probably be viewed as an upper limit, in comparison.

 

[contedicavour]

Besides lack of budget, their is also another reason why we won't see any updates : Lafayette are meant to operate in mid to low threat scenarios, and that means not too many airborne/missile threats. FREMMs will take charge of the more dangerous scenarios.

cheers

 

[kato]

Besides lack of budget, their is also another reason why we won't see any updates : Lafayette are meant to operate in mid to low threat scenarios, and that means not too many airborne/missile threats. FREMMs will take charge of the more dangerous scenarios.

Of course. Any upgrades at all would focus on that role, not on a heavier weapons fit (which would of course also be possible, there's enough growth margin). There's a few minor systems that could be fitted though which could be useful for their role.

The planned Exocet magazine for the NH90 NFH could be fitted during this upgrade (it's planned to install this before NH-90 is introduced). And maybe an upgrade to the Dagaies onboard (to the NGDS fitted on the Horizons maybe?). The Vampir passive LoS IR detector/scanner could be somewhat useful in the typical roles of the class.

There's bigger stuff - aside from Aster - that i doubt will be upgraded. E.g. it was originally planned to replace the Tavitac 2000 CMS with Senit 7/8.

 

[Spacearrow99]

If some of the Fremms are cut, the MN can install torpedos and towed sonar to the La Fayettes along with VL Mica. That's the only scenario, were I see major La Fayette class upgrades.

The MN must upgrade the Mistral class LPDs AAW systems; they must add Sadral systems.

 

[kato]

The MN must upgrade the Mistral class LPDs AAW systems; they must add Sadral systems.

Actually, in 2006, it was discussed to install VL Mica on the BPCs - as a testbed for VL Mica, mostly. They currently carry Simbad.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Sadral launchers and 30 mm mausers would be good upgrades for the Mistrals. There would have to be procurement cuts; inorder, for the VL Micas to be installed on the Mistrals. It seems that the MN wants it's Fremms at all costs. The Mistrals want be going into high threat zones until they have Fremm protection.

The La Fayettes were designed, so DCNS could get export orders. The MN should've outfitted the ships with towed sonar and torpedos during their construction. This decision was a big blunder by the leaders of the MN, and the MN would've had more available ASW units for it current and future operations.

 

[kato]

The MN should've outfiited the ships with towed sonar and torpedos during their construction. It was a big blunder on the MN's part, and they would've more options with their procurement programs.

The Lafayette program was purpose-built to a low- to medium-threat environment. No ASW, intentionally. Initially, there were plans for a sonar. Dropped, not required, no ASW role. Then there were plans to build a ASW version later on. Hull and towed sonar, ASW helo, torpedoes. ASW version to the trashcan for FREMM. Simple as that.

 

[Spacearrow99]

I must rephrase one of my statements during my last post. The MN's leaders made a large blunder when they didn't design ASW systems into to the ships. The ships are expensive, and the MN could've ordered cheaper presence vessels. The La Fayette's have the place for ASW systems. The MN could've order more AAW Fremms, and cut the number of ASW Fremms giving the MN overall better AAW capabilities.

The proposed VL Crotale project for the La Fayettes shouldn't be ordered. The Mistral AAW systems upgrades, should be the MN's next priority, after procuring the Fremms .

 

[kato]

The ships are expensive, and the MN could've ordered cheaper presence vessels.

They have cheaper presence vessels, and use those primarily in presence missions. The Floreal class, and the P400 patrol boats, as well as other patrol units. Realistically, the Lafayettes are used in similar roles, but in medium-threat envionments where the above are not suited for (due to air defense or EW environment).

The La Fayette's have the place for ASW systems. The MN could've order more AAW Fremms, and cut the number of ASW Fremms giving the MN overall better AAW capabilities.

The ASW Lafayette (and the sixth Lafayette) were cancelled around 1996. Any further consideration of ASW-equipped Lafayettes instead of FMMs/FREMMs would have required a new building run over a dozen years after the initial ships were ordered.

The Mistral AAW systems upgrades, should be the MN's next priority, after procuring the Fremms .

The 30mm guns will be installed once they're ripped from Orage. Sadral will probably come around the same time.

 

[Spacearrow99]

The 30 mm Mausers have been installed on the Mistrals, but the simbad launchers haven't been removed. The Foudres have simbad launchers and Mausers. I doubt that the Mistrals will recieve Sadrals.

(naval-technology)

 

[harryriedl]

The 30mm guns will be installed once they're ripped from Orage. Sadral will probably come around the same time.

slightly OT were is Orage being decommissioned is going to India or is it being done France [shame about the asbestos the Argentineans could have benefited from that kind of ship]