Indonesian Marines

FutureTank

Banned Member
Along with the recently announced, but long known, intention by Indonesia to purchase from Russia submarines and helicopters, was also a less well known purchase of 20 'amphibious light tanks'.
There has been little comment on this, but it warrants some investigation.

Firstly the purchase is by the Indonesian Navy, not Army as one might imagine, and is for 20 BMP-3F amphibious 'light tank' which come with an option of 100 more BMP-3Fs from Russia. Indonesia also plans to buy landing crafts from Russia. These are of course designed as Infantry Fighting Vehicles, and not 'light tanks', and are a significant improvement on the existing Marine vehicle park.

This is enough to equip 9 companies, or three battalions of the estimated 17,000 Indonesian Marines [Korps Marinir (Kormar)].

GlobalSecurity site says the marines were organized into two brigades, one in Jakarta (PASMAR 2nd) and the other in Surabaya (PASMAR 1st), and were equipped with light tanks (PT-76), armored personnel carriers (AMX-10P), and antiaircraft guns. Some of the marine elements were believed occasionally to be attached to KOSTRAD in operational missions. However a third brigade is attached to the Marine Command though nominally it is the 3rd Infantry Brigade.

[From Wiki]
In 1999 a plan was proposed to expand the Kormar from its strength of 13,000 service personnel. Based on this plan, every Kormar's base would have one of the three combat brigades comprised of: the Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery and would be supported by one Combat Support Regiment and one Administration Support Regiment. The expansion will create three Kormar bases: Surabaya for Eastern area command, Jakarta for Central area command, and Rate Island in Lampung for Western area command (BRIGIF 3rd Brigade ). The expansion would increase the strength of Kormar to 23,000 persons.

It seems that the BMP-3F are intended for the Marine Cavalry battalions, one for each brigade, but organised as standard Russian infantry battalions, replacing the very aged AMX-10s and PT-76s.

Each Kormar battalion has about 654 service personnel as reported in 2005 on the participation of the 7th battalion during the Aceh relief operations as part fo the 3rd Infantry Brigade (BRIGIF-3 which is under Marine Command). (http://www.indonesia-ottawa.org/information/details.php?type=news_copy&id=1295)

Also used
http://www.marinir.mil.id/organisasi.php

Clearly the initial purchase of the 20 BMP-3F are intended for the initial training and induction of the type by the 1st and 2nd Marine brigades, and the eventual procurement of the BMP-3F to equip all three brigades will transform the Indonesian Marine force into a very significant and modern force equipped with some of the best amphibious vehicles in the Asia Pacific region.

Cheers
Greg
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
how could 120 BMP3,s be enough to equip 3 battalions???:unknown When each Bn is @ 650 men strong thjat woud mean about 16 men per veh? No training vehs,no replacement veh, 120 veh = 2 bns imo.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Not all of the 650 men of one bn are combat troops.
Many countries operate with something like around 40 IFVs per bn.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
i understand that, but even with 40 veh to a bn,surley not every veh will be operational....some must be kept as spares,some must be used as training vehicles,some must be used as evaluation and test veh,some must be comd veh etc etc...Aust operates over 200 ASLAV,s but only 2 units are equiped with them...
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
how could 120 BMP3,s be enough to equip 3 battalions???:unknown When each Bn is @ 650 men strong thjat woud mean about 16 men per veh? No training vehs,no replacement veh, 120 veh = 2 bns imo.
I expect about 40 BMP-3s per battalion. However I expect a change to Marine Cavalry batallion TO&E to include a dismounted team with each vehicles of perhaps 4 scouts, so the Cavalry batallion will be significantly different to the standard Indonesian Marine battalion.
With this in mind the vehicles would probably carry extra a ammunition and fuel for the saving in personnel compartment space occupants.

BMP-3F - Specially designed for operations at sea, with improved seaworthiness and buoyancy, and high fire accuracy at sea force 2. This can endure continuous amphibious operation for seven hours.

An earlier report suggested a desire to purchase 150 vehicles, but this remains unconfirmed.

Cheers
Greg
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
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Ok it is a little bit tight but maybe they hope for a very good maintenance record. :)

And as long as I don't want to upgrade them by myself and use other platforms for example as command vehicles or FOAs one doesn't need them in any other role than IFV.

The lack of training vehicles is indeed a problem.
Maybe the Indonesian bns use a little bit less than 40 vehicles per bn? Does somebody has a TO&E available?
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
i understand that, but even with 40 veh to a bn,surley not every veh will be operational....some must be kept as spares,some must be used as training vehicles,some must be used as evaluation and test veh,some must be comd veh etc etc...Aust operates over 200 ASLAV,s but only 2 units are equiped with them...
It is likely that the 20 vehicles in the initial purchase are intended for just this purpose of training and induction.

Probably the agreement includes Russians offering support and maintenance during initial period of induction (3 years?).

The actual number of vehicles in the battalions is likely to be 38, with two used for spares and training.

Cheers
Greg
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
Ok it is a little bit tight but maybe they hope for a very good maintenance record. :)

And as long as I don't want to upgrade them by myself and use other platforms for example as command vehicles or FOAs one doesn't need them in any other role than IFV.

The lack of training vehicles is indeed a problem.
Maybe the Indonesian bns use a little bit less than 40 vehicles per bn? Does somebody has a TO&E available?
The issue is not what Indonesians want, but what they can afford. Recent disasters have forced substantial cuts in the Defence budgets, and it is likely that the vehicles being purchased are the absolute maximum affordable number, and that Russians are being very accommodating. Most of the problems reported with BMP-3 have been rectified over the years, and the same vehicle is to be supplied to the Russian naval infantry, hence F for 'flotskiy', or fleet.

Cheers
Greg
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Oh common, it is not as if half a dozen vehicles more for training would ruin them...
I can see that you can avoid purchasing some vehicles when you use other platforms for FAO, command, medics, etc. and don't intend to upgrade your vehicles by yourself (No need for test vehicles).
One could even get away without purchasing some more for spares. Support by the supplier as well as a good maintenance record (Questionable for Indonesia) make it possible.

But one defenitely needs some vehicles for training. So you need some of them at your schools as well as for train your drivers for examples.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
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  • #10
Oh common, it is not as if half a dozen vehicles more for training would ruin them...
I can see that you can avoid purchasing some vehicles when you use other platforms for FAO, command, medics, etc. and don't intend to upgrade your vehicles by yourself (No need for test vehicles).
One could even get away without purchasing some more for spares. Support by the supplier as well as a good maintenance record (Questionable for Indonesia) make it possible.

But one definitely needs some vehicles for training. So you need some of them at your schools as well as for train your drivers for examples.
Agreed, but I can't speak for the Indonesian Treasury. :)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
Oh common, it is not as if half a dozen vehicles more for training would ruin them...
I can see that you can avoid purchasing some vehicles when you use other platforms for FAO, command, medics, etc. and don't intend to upgrade your vehicles by yourself (No need for test vehicles).
One could even get away without purchasing some more for spares. Support by the supplier as well as a good maintenance record (Questionable for Indonesia) make it possible.

But one definitely needs some vehicles for training. So you need some of them at your schools as well as for train your drivers for examples.
Allowing for two spare BMP-3s per battalion, that would be your 'half dozen'. This would also make sense because of the brigade locations that make decentralised in-unit training more logical, particularly given Indonesia's unique national geography.

Cheers
Greg
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
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If they are really using 38 vehicles per bn I agree that it would be neough for trainign new drivers and mechanics.

But what about he schools? Or are they using other vehicles to imitade the BMPs there?
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think they will have enough for 2 Bns a coy and a training unit. That would be stetching it.But 2 mech marine bns is not to be sneezed at,they would be a pretty usefull force. I just think 3 would be pushing it to the limit...red lineing so to speak.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
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  • #14
If they are really using 38 vehicles per bn I agree that it would be neough for trainign new drivers and mechanics.

But what about he schools? Or are they using other vehicles to imitade the BMPs there?
Basic driving training on BMP-3 is provided by a simulator, not actual vehicle, even in the Russian Army. Same simulator was sold to the other BMP-3 clients.
Made by MAK in Russia http://www.airshow.ru/expo/5/prod_1189.htm

Another company is Logos http://innovation.infomos.ru/mifi/logos.htm

Cheers
Greg
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
For sure one can save actual driving hours with a real BMP while using a simulator but you still need a real vehicle for the advanced part of the training.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
I think they will have enough for 2 Bns a coy and a training unit. That would be stretching it. But 2 mech marine bns is not to be sneezed at,they would be a pretty useful force. I just think 3 would be pushing it to the limit...red lining so to speak.
There has been a long-term plan to expand the Indonesian Marine Corps to three brigades eventually numbering some 60,000 personnel.

Currently the 3rd Brigade is mostly a rifle brigade with no mobility or artillery assets.

Note that I don't think the BMP-3 units are intended to fill a 'mech battalion' role, but would operate in the cavalry role, very much like the USMC light armoured battalions.

I find selection of the tracked BMP-3 over cheaper wheeled options such as BTR-90 versions even more telling, particularly given the financial constraints under which the purchase was made.

Cheers
Greg
 
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