SA submarine outwits NATO

XaNDeR

New Member
SA submarine outwits Nato force
Louis Oelofse | Atlantic Ocean
04 September 2007 06:16
A lone South African submarine left some Nato commanders with red faces on Tuesday as it "sank" all the ships of the Nato Maritime Group engaged in exercises with the South African Navy off the Cape coast.

The S101 -- or the SAS Manthatisi -- not only evaded detection by a joint Nato and South African Navy search party consisting of several ships combing the search area with radar and sonar, it also "sank" all the ships taking part in the fleet.

At several times during the exercise -- which lasted throughout Monday night and Tuesday morning -- a red square lit up the screens where the surface ships thought the submarine was. But it remained elusive.

This gave Defence Minister Mosiuoa Lekota something to brag about when he landed on the SAS Amatola on Tuesday to speak to the media

"To be able to frustrate detection by Nato nations is no mean achievement; it speaks of the excellence of the equipment we acquired for this purpose," Lekota said.

And while this left one of the world's strongest military alliances frustrated, it was also a sign that the group had a capable partner in Africa, Lekota said.

"With sustained inter-operability with foreign forces such as Nato, we are well positioned to respond to any unforeseen circumstances that may confront either ourselves or other regions," he said.

Lekota was quite clear that a working relationship with Nato was desired.

"They have a partner of reliable capability because we are forging working relations here. We are building mutual confidence for what can be done and what we can do together as Nato and South Africa, or as Nato and Southern African nations," Lekota said.

These sentiments were echoed by the commander of the Nato maritime group, Rear Admiral Mahon, who said the deployment would see the group sailing right around Africa.

"I can't speak for what the future will hold but certainly this was valuable. Africa is a strategic continent. The freedom of the seas, energy, security, they are all critical issue to Nato countries," he said.

The exercises would continue till the end of the week and would include, ship-to-ship refuelling, search-and-seizure exercises and various other scenarios faced by modern navies. -- Sapa



http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=318355&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/




This is amazing , especialy for South Africa
 

XaNDeR

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USS Normandy - Ticonderoga class !
HMCS Toronto - Halifax fregate
HNLMS Evertsen - De Zeven Provinciën class fregate
HDMS Olfert Fischer - Niels Juel corvete
NRP Alvares Cabral - Vasco da Gama class fregate
 

Gripenator

Banned Member
SA submarine outwits Nato force
Louis Oelofse | Atlantic Ocean
04 September 2007 06:16
A lone South African submarine left some Nato commanders with red faces on Tuesday as it "sank" all the ships of the Nato Maritime Group engaged in exercises with the South African Navy off the Cape coast.

The S101 -- or the SAS Manthatisi -- not only evaded detection by a joint Nato and South African Navy search party consisting of several ships combing the search area with radar and sonar, it also "sank" all the ships taking part in the fleet.

At several times during the exercise -- which lasted throughout Monday night and Tuesday morning -- a red square lit up the screens where the surface ships thought the submarine was. But it remained elusive.

This gave Defence Minister Mosiuoa Lekota something to brag about when he landed on the SAS Amatola on Tuesday to speak to the media

"To be able to frustrate detection by Nato nations is no mean achievement; it speaks of the excellence of the equipment we acquired for this purpose," Lekota said.

And while this left one of the world's strongest military alliances frustrated, it was also a sign that the group had a capable partner in Africa, Lekota said.

"With sustained inter-operability with foreign forces such as Nato, we are well positioned to respond to any unforeseen circumstances that may confront either ourselves or other regions," he said.

Lekota was quite clear that a working relationship with Nato was desired.

"They have a partner of reliable capability because we are forging working relations here. We are building mutual confidence for what can be done and what we can do together as Nato and South Africa, or as Nato and Southern African nations," Lekota said.

These sentiments were echoed by the commander of the Nato maritime group, Rear Admiral Mahon, who said the deployment would see the group sailing right around Africa.

"I can't speak for what the future will hold but certainly this was valuable. Africa is a strategic continent. The freedom of the seas, energy, security, they are all critical issue to Nato countries," he said.

The exercises would continue till the end of the week and would include, ship-to-ship refuelling, search-and-seizure exercises and various other scenarios faced by modern navies. -- Sapa






This is amazing , especialy for South Africa

This is indeed interesting, however the "exercise" was somehow skewed in favor of the SA Type 209-I seriously doubt that the NATO flotilla actually utilised their full capabilities in the hunt-this sounds wayyy too biased in favor of the ONE 209 and the fact that a NATO Battle Group never operates without at least one accompanying SSN outside EU waters.

Assuming that the 209 fired wire guided and/or "dumb" (unguided) torpedos from one vector and actually hit one of the ships in the NATO flotilla, wouldn't the rest of the ships be able to triangulate approximately the 209's position using active sonar after observing the angle of the hit and assign 2-3 ASuW helicopters (SH-60LAMPS) to 'flush it out' and sink it as the SSK attempts to get out of the area? If I remember correctly, an SSK has a top speed of about 24knts submerged and would have no chance to escape about 2-4 LAMPS helos after it (each helo covering 60 degrees), let alone run from a Mk46 AsuW torp once detected(c.40knts)

This is just probably a PR stunt to make that ex-guerilla monkey Lekota feel good about himself
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
a NATO Battle Group never operates without at least one accompanying SSN outside EU waters.
No SSNs in UNIFIL (which is a NATO Battle group), only one SSK operating in the area that is not officially part of the fleet.
Pretty sure there's no permanent SSN presence in TF150 either.

Assuming that the 209 fired wire guided and/or "dumb" (unguided) torpedos
South Africa has ordered DM2A4 Seehecht (Seahake Mod. 4) torpedoes for these subs, and is presumably already using the DM2A3 Seahake Mod. 3.
DM2A4 is a new wire-guided torpedo with active/passive homing, a speed of 50 knots and a range of around 30 nm.
DM2A3 is a standard 90s heavy wire-guided torpedo, active homing, 35 knots speed, range around 15 nm.
(typical info, real stuff classified of course)
Both torpedoes employ modern guidance including re-attack strategies. The guidance system aboard the sub allow simultaneous guidance against multiple targets with multiple torpedoes in the water.

If I remember correctly, an SSK has a top speed of about 24knts submerged
21.5 knots declassified for a Type 209/1400 (some sources: 22 knots). Of course at 20 knots, it would run out of batteries after 20nm though.
 

nornavy

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
I do not think the exerise favoured the sub in any way.
The Norwegian Ula class SSKs have on several occations taken out entire Task Groups on exercises. During the NATO exercise Joint Winter in 2004, one sub sank the entire invasion fleet and were ordered to leave the exercise for 72 hours.
Norwegian subs have also penetrated the escort and "sunk" a US carrier on atleast a couple of occations.

Small and silent, modern SSKs are more than a match for surface ships.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I do not think the exerise favoured the sub in any way.
The Norwegian Ula class SSKs have on several occations taken out entire Task Groups on exercises. During the NATO exercise Joint Winter in 2004, one sub sank the entire invasion fleet and were ordered to leave the exercise for 72 hours.
Norwegian subs have also penetrated the escort and "sunk" a US carrier on atleast a couple of occations.

Small and silent, modern SSKs are more than a match for surface ships.
I remember similar stories about the small and silent Toti class SSKs in the '70s. They regularly managed to beat USN ASW screen and attack the carriers. It's amazing how small SSKs can still achieve wonders especially in coastal areas.

cheers
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
USS Normandy - Ticonderoga class !
HMCS Toronto - Halifax fregate
HNLMS Evertsen - De Zeven Provinciën class fregate
HDMS Olfert Fischer - Niels Juel corvete
NRP Alvares Cabral - Vasco da Gama class fregate
No Royal Navy frigates - there's your problem! :D
 

Oryx

New Member
For some further information and photographs from the exercise:

Day one:
http://www.navy.mil.za/archive/0709/070904_Amazolo/article.htm

Day two, when the "event" with Manthatisi occurred:
http://www.navy.mil.za/archive/0709/070905_Amazolo2/article.htm

And the predictable response from the media in SA:
http://www.navy.mil.za/archive/0709/070906_sub_congrats/article.htm

To comment on what "Gripenator" said: It was certainly not a PR stunt. As you can see it was part of a bigger exercise and two South African frigates were among the victims. I know a little about the commander of the sub and he is very highly regarded within the SAN. In addition, the SA sub commanders know those waters very well and are used to the interesting thermal layers you get in the areas where the Benguela and Agulhas currents mix. In the past, the old Daphne class subs also caused some unpleasant surprises in exercises, although those events were not as well publicized.

As for the jibe at Mr. Lekota: I think there are many politicians around the world and in South Africa who can be called "monkeys" and he is indeed an ex-guerrilla fighter, but he has performed considerably better than most of the recent South African politicians and far, far better than the vast majority of politicians on the African continent.
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Impressive performance for the crew of the SSK. Subs are really dangerous when used properly and can have effect disproportionate to their operational footprint. In a real scenario, depending on the combatants, this could alter the course of the war. Makes me think of the effects of RN subs in the Falklands conflict. BAMs and armed UUVs cant get into service fast enough!

-DA

P.S. Does anybody know the rough average operational radius for a typical SSK from its home port while performing Sea Denial operations?
 

submerged

New Member
not really much ASW assets in the battlegroup anyways, the most capable being the niels juel for shallow water ASW probably. Whole battlegroups get sunk in excercises with subs anyways so i don't really see the special thing about this particular event, ofcourse it's allways nice to make fun of big grey surface targets tho ;)
 
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