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Aussie Digger
Guest
3x platoons per company. The platoon size hasn't been revealed but is unlikely to be more than 40.
We have already expanded 4RAR significantly over the past 3-4 years. I can't see it getting bigger than it already is.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
But can we sustain that deployment indefinatly???? Thats what 3~4 batalions and supporting assets, big deployment for 7 (eventually) battalions.... i suppose a single battalion group (maybe even brigade group) deployed in afghanistan indefinatly would be feasible but we need at least a battalion ready to deploy in the south pacific. But how long could we viably keep 3 battalions in the field in 2 theaters?????We have the ability to simultaneously deploy a brigade and a battalion in different operational theatres remember?
We have MUCH less than that currently deployed...
Does the Australian military have fixed rotation cycles? I know the UK tries to restrict army battalions to six month operational tours (Iraq / Afghanistan), followed by twelve months training, exercises and qualification courses back in home port.
Should the Aussies follow a similar path there is no way they will be able to sustain a Battalion level deployment in more than one operational theatre without conscription or increased recruitment. Often as not it’s not the fighting arms that cause operational tempo problems but lack of vital supporting units (sigs, engineers, intelligence, HQ staff, medics).
Should the Aussies follow a similar path there is no way they will be able to sustain a Battalion level deployment in more than one operational theatre without conscription or increased recruitment. Often as not it’s not the fighting arms that cause operational tempo problems but lack of vital supporting units (sigs, engineers, intelligence, HQ staff, medics).
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Aussie Digger
Guest
Pretty much.
FYI we have a battalion group deployed in Timor at present, a Company group in the Solomans, 3x company's in Iraq and 2x company's in Afghanistan deployed at present.
We seem to be supporting and rotating them on a regular basis...
You are correct though that supporting assets are what will allow Army to deploy to multiple locations, however the Government strategic guidance as I outlined above is for a brigade level group and a battalion level group deployed simultaneously to different theatres with an ability to rotate the deployed forces after 6 months.
The additional battalions announced under the Governments "enhanced land forces" plan will enhance this ability.
Can you say in which areas and to what degree 4th RAR was expanded
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Aussie Digger
Guest
When 4RAR (Commando) was created, it maintained only 1x Commando Company, a support company, Battalion HQ, plus TAG-East.
2x additional Commando Companies have been added over the years. The "special forces direct entry scheme" was meant to assist it rapidly expand, but in the end that program didn't prove all that successful. The numbers were found from within the "Green" Army.
The "enhanced land force" (ELF) will help sustain Australia's special operations capability through a larger base of infantry soldiers.
Is there any talk in the lines about expanding SOCOM in General.
Like mentioned establishing a 4th Company or expanding SASR or even expanding Navy CD and making them an "over the shore" Assault Group and not "just" Beach Recon,Damage Repair and Counter Mines.
(BTW I know that you cant get a fully trained SF Operator by just thinking of them and put it on paper)
Sry for the Questions Im just curious about the ADF in General
Like mentioned establishing a 4th Company or expanding SASR or even expanding Navy CD and making them an "over the shore" Assault Group and not "just" Beach Recon,Damage Repair and Counter Mines.
(BTW I know that you cant get a fully trained SF Operator by just thinking of them and put it on paper)
Sry for the Questions Im just curious about the ADF in General
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Aussie Digger
Guest
I'm not aware of any proposals to expand the line units within SOCOMD, consolidating what they've developed and conducting current operations I think will occupy SOCOMD's focus for some time yet.
What is being developed is the support capabilities for SOCOMD, the most recent and obvious such capability enhancement is the air-dropped RHIB capability, newly inducted into service.
Air Force is developing a "Special Tactics" Squadron which will work alongside SOCOMD and focus on improving SOCOMD's insertion and extraction capability, joint operations including "Joint Terminal Attack Capability" (calling in airstrikes) and overall improve the support Air Force can provide to SOCOMD. This may lead to some major acquisitions in future years. KC-130J Tankers, MH-47G Chinooks and MV-22 Osprey's have been mooted at various times as possible platform acquisitions to assist with the development of this capability...
RAN is also improving it's interoperability with SOCOMD with RAN submarines gaining additional capability to insert special forces.
I wouldn't be surprised to see RAN develop a "riverine" style force in years to come to conduct littoral operations and support SOCOMD for higher level maritime operations. Something like a CB90 acquisition.
As to CDT's being an "assault" force of some kind, I very much doubt it. For one thing the current 2 teams are very small in overall size. Secondly it would duplicate capabilities that 4RAR and the TAG's already generate. The CDT's already assist this capability, with many of them TAG qualified, but to see them generate the capability entirely themselves?
Don't see it happening...
But wasnt 171 Sqn supposed to be the "Special Tactics" Squadron.
I mean it is supossed to get 12 MRH 90 to support SOCOM and if the Aussies really get more Chinooks this would likely to go to 171st.
Because of the Points mentioned it seesm likely to come down to another Commando Comapny. They are supossed to make large scale Airborne Ops,CSAR and as you mentioned Amphibious,Assault Diver Ops.
By the way this whole TAG Thing. Why arent the civilian Authorities in Charge of this Ops with an own Unit like for example GSG 9 in Germany. If seen pics of Aussie SWAT. So why are they not freeing TAG SASR and 4TH RAR TAG from this jobs so that they can do jobs overseas?
I mean it is supossed to get 12 MRH 90 to support SOCOM and if the Aussies really get more Chinooks this would likely to go to 171st.
Because of the Points mentioned it seesm likely to come down to another Commando Comapny. They are supossed to make large scale Airborne Ops,CSAR and as you mentioned Amphibious,Assault Diver Ops.
By the way this whole TAG Thing. Why arent the civilian Authorities in Charge of this Ops with an own Unit like for example GSG 9 in Germany. If seen pics of Aussie SWAT. So why are they not freeing TAG SASR and 4TH RAR TAG from this jobs so that they can do jobs overseas?
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Aussie Digger
Guest
171 Aviation Sqn is equipped with Blackhawks and will remain so in the forseeable future. They are tasked exclusively with providing a helo capability for SOCOMD operations, but in reality for TAG operations only. I was under the impression all currently ordered MRH-90's will be issued to 1 and 5 Aviation Regiments and RAN, with the Blackhawks remaining in SOCOMD for some time to come...
The "Special Tactics Squadron" is supposed to be combined with the current RAAF FACDU and when operational will be called 4 Squadron.
The civilians ARE in charge. Okay here goes:
Australia has what is called in bureaucratic speak, the National Counter-Terrorism Plan (NCTP). This plan has been formulated by the Federal Australian Government's "Cabinet's" "National Security Committee" in consultation with the State Governments. This plan was developed and is managed by the National Counter Terrorism Committee and is manned by the Federal Government's Attorney General's office, with integrated State Government representatives. As you've no doubt seen already, Counter Terrorism in Australia is a bureaucrats "wet dream"...
The plan is basically that each State is responsible for providing capability to respond to and manage a terrorist incident. To this end each State and Territory police force maintains a (or several) Tactical Team (SWAT Team if you prefer) capable of responding to and managing Terrorism incidents.
These Teams have to be maintained anyway for legitimate Law Enforcement purposes (High Risk Warrants, Domestic - non-terrorist sieges etc) so the plan agreed to by all States is that the States will provide the response to Terrorist incidents with these teams. They are funded predominantly by the Federal Government and equipped and trained to virtually identical standards.
In addition to this the Australian Federal Police (AFP) maintains it's "Operational Response Team" (ORT, or whatever it's called this week...
) which provides this capability on behalf of the Australian Capital Territory Government and also for the AFP's International Deployment Group (IDG) and it's "Regional Response Unit" (basically a SWAT team capable of deploying rapidly to regional Australian airports). The AFP is also responsible for providing a Police Tactical Team capability for Australian Territories such as Norfolk Island, Christmas Island etc. Now, on top of these capabilities the Federal Government and State Governments have agreed that the ADF should provide a "large scale" CT capability and this is why the TAG's have been created. The TAG's also provide capability such as the size of the TAG's and the Blackhawk helo's etc that the Police Teams don't have due to resource issues.
The TAG's due to their military background also provide an "offshore" CT capability that the Police Teams can't match and shouldn't even try.
It is also a significant legal issue within Australia, the use of the Defence Force in Domestic Operations and it's impractical to call the Army out every time some bloke decides to use a shotgun to hold up a bank...
As such the Police Tactical Teams will always remain necessary.
Would the TAG teams ROE be similar to the UK, where if it is deemed neccesary, SAS can be called upon to take over a situation, Ie Iranian Embassy
To answer earlier post, ADF do 6 Mth rotations, without the extensions as seen in the US Forces, as this would be hard on the soldiers and the political front,as seen in the US.
To answer earlier post, ADF do 6 Mth rotations, without the extensions as seen in the US Forces, as this would be hard on the soldiers and the political front,as seen in the US.
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Aussie Digger
Guest
Pretty much. The State police forces have control of a terrorist incidents and can call out the ADF if they deem the situation is getting too big for the.
Unfortunately it's a long involved process with the Premier of the State having to be consulted, The Prime Minister, Minister for Defence and Attorney General etc all having to be notified and give approval for deployment of a TAG element.
It's not something that we'd probably see happen in a day but rather over a period of several days I'd guess.
The fact it's never happened makes it all a bit theoretical I suppose... Once a TAG element is deployed the police still maintain control over the incident until the Police forward commander decides nothing else can be done. Control is then handed over to the TAG...
Sorry but what is FACDU?
The allocation Ive seen was 24 MRH 90 to 5 Aviation,12 to 171 Squadron, 6 to RAN and four to Oakey for Training
Cany ou go in a bit detailed on the Special Tactics Squadron.
Will there also be ADG used in a "Commando Role" as CSAR?
The allocation Ive seen was 24 MRH 90 to 5 Aviation,12 to 171 Squadron, 6 to RAN and four to Oakey for Training
from defence Aerospace 19 June 2006
Cany ou go in a bit detailed on the Special Tactics Squadron.
Will there also be ADG used in a "Commando Role" as CSAR?
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Aussie Digger
Guest
FACDU: Forward Air Control Development Unit - the RAAF unit responsible for the development of Forward air control capability within RAAF and with joint responsibility with Army for the development of JOST teams - Joint Offensive support teams, basically teams which can request and co-ordinate the employment of the full range of ADF direct and in-direct fire capabilities.
I can do one better than talk about the Special Tactics Squadron, I can provide a link with Lt. General Peter LEAHY and AVM Quaife discussing it:
http://www.defence.gov.au/army/LWSC/Publications/SP/SP_309.pdf
Page 109 onwards outlines pretty much all that has been released publicly on the STS so far...
One other quote from Air Force News all talks about the STS
From what I've gathered from those who would be involved in the whole process of calling in the TAG would probably take less than a day. CT is one area where state and federal governments get their act into gear pretty quickly.
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Aussie Digger
Guest
I'm sure once the call was made they would deploy fairly quickly, but the delay would most likely be at the Police end, actually requesting the call out of the ADF.
I was at a siege once that lasted for 36hrs and the Queensland Police SERT team wasn't even called out.
The Police Forward Commander didn't want to be responsible for the cost of calling them out. Apparently it must have come out of his own pocket...
I'm sure once the call was made they would deploy fairly quickly, but the delay would most likely be at the Police end, actually requesting the call out of the ADF.
I was at a siege once that lasted for 36hrs and the Queensland Police SERT team wasn't even called out.
The Police Forward Commander didn't want to be responsible for the cost of calling them out. Apparently it must have come out of his own pocket...
I think in a case of a clear cut terrorist incident a state police force/government would be calling on Canberra mighty quick.
That said, the average state government isn't the brightest bunch of people you'll ever come across. I pity the police that have to work under them.
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Aussie Digger
Guest
True, but I rather think the day of large scale "hostage taking" incidents, "Princes Gate" style is over. High level CT capability is just too prevalent these days. The ability to rapidly respond to CBR and mass casualty incidents should be the priority these days and I consider it FAR more likely that the Incident Response Regiment will get more call outs than either of the TAG's ever will.
I definitely think that 2x TAG's is a waste, both are company size or greater and I find it difficult to conceive of a domestic incident that would require a deployment of this size...