Australian Army Discussions and Updates

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Yes Tas, I suspect he is. Question for you guys, do you think the ADF could do more? What about the deployment of one of these combined arms teams that Army is always talking about. Built around an infantry battalion with supporting artillery, armour and helos. Its about time the infantry were given the chance to show their stuff. Thoughts anyone??

Hooroo
Australia currently has elements of 5RAR, 7RAR and 1RAR deployed on operations, plus SASR and 4RAR (Commando) in Afghanistan already.

That leaves, 2, 3 and 6RAR at home, without any elements deployed. I suspect that one of these battalions could deploy along with a tank troop, a cavalry Squadron, a 155mm artillery battery (6x guns plus probably to equal what the Dutch have), combat engineers sub-unit, a UAV troop and combat support assets, if Government desired, however the current Government shows little inclination to deploy ground forces on combat operations, which is what Afghanistan would become for this force.

RAAF, I'm sure could work-up 4x "HUG Bugs" (4x F-16's is all that the Netherlands ever deployed I believe) for operation in Afghanistan, plus a JTAC team to call them in.

Australia would probably request some US helo's to support our force as it would be several years before our Tigers come online...
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think the air combat force should also be given more chances to 'show its stuff'
Now you're talking Tas!! Phase 2.2 of HUG is past the halfway mark and 2.4(Litening) is close to in service and once 2.3 EW Upgrade is complete the Hornets will be good to go. With the Taliban not fielding sophisticated SAM's I wonder if a deployment could be made before 2.3 is finished. :D

Interesting you mention the Dutch F-16's AD. It was reported that the one that crashed in 'stan was possibly due to vermin in the cockpit. The critter blamed was a camel spider, having seen one of these creatures up close I don't blame the pilot for not wanting to share his confined space with said arachnid. We had one as a pet for a while, I think the poor thing may have died of fright though after being prodded and poked by all and sundry.

Hooroo
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I really don't think the Aust Govt is considering pulling out of the 'stan. I can see an almost open ended commitment of Army and RAAF units. I really would like too see the Govt. put its money were its mouth is and commit a full battalion sized battle group to the fight. The govt has some cheek when it browbeats other govts about not pulling there weight. We have made some select and token commitments so far. Look at the size of the Canadian force in the 'stan. Australia is a similar sized power as Canada, so we should be looking to do a bit more of the "dirty" work. If Nelson continues to go around Europe criticising other countries he will end up getting put in his place, much like Barack Obama put John Horward in his.

Hooroo
 

Brycec

New Member
I really don't think the Aust Govt is considering pulling out of the 'stan. I can see an almost open ended commitment of Army and RAAF units. I really would like too see the Govt. put its money were its mouth is and commit a full battalion sized battle group to the fight. The govt has some cheek when it browbeats other govts about not pulling there weight. We have made some select and token commitments so far. Look at the size of the Canadian force in the 'stan. Australia is a similar sized power as Canada, so we should be looking to do a bit more of the "dirty" work. If Nelson continues to go around Europe criticising other countries he will end up getting put in his place, much like Barack Obama put John Horward in his.

Hooroo
Yeah but Obama made a completely ridiculous reply to Howards challenge.I'm sure we all heard it.

And on pulling out of afghan... I heard some government guy on the news say that "It has never been Australias way to leave a fight halfway complete."

I'm pretty certain Australia is gonna hang in there; at least for as long as the USA does.
 

Navor86

Member
I personally also see that there should be an increase of ARH at least 8 more would be right so that you would have 24 for 1st Aviation and 6 for Oakey.
With those 24 you could deploy 6 ARH at any given time
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Yep, I totally agree with increasing the size of the Tiger ARH force. An extra 8 - 12 airframes would really beef up the two operational sqn's. IIRC they are both based in Darwin(?), moving one sqn to Townsville would be a better move in my opinion.
I also believe the number of MRH-90 and CH-47 should be inreased. We really need at least a dozen Chinooks, buy 6 new -F models fitted out for Specops(MH-47?) and then upgrade the rest to the same specs. Then move them to Sydney and Perth to work with the SAS and 4 RAR. One offshoot of this would be the requirement for ~6 KC-130J for AAR of the choppers. They are also capable of refueling Hornets and Hawks(when they have the probe fitted).
I have heard that the RAAF ADG's have taken over the CSAR role from the SAS. So an MH-47 purchase would be useful for their training benefit as well.
The Australian reported that ADF may be the first customer for the CV-22 Osprey. Hopefully we don't go down this path, I think MH-47 would suit our needs and budget better.
With the purchase of the two LHD's hopefully there will be extra MRH-90's ordered to operate from them. I am unsure if the choppers are going to be operated by Navy, anyone expand on this? They won't have troops embarked all the time but surely the choppers will be a permanent fixture. Anyway I have spent a few $billion this morning, bye for now.

Hooroo
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Yep, I totally agree with increasing the size of the Tiger ARH force. An extra 8 - 12 airframes would really beef up the two operational sqn's. IIRC they are both based in Darwin(?), moving one sqn to Townsville would be a better move in my opinion.
I also believe the number of MRH-90 and CH-47 should be inreased. We really need at least a dozen Chinooks, buy 6 new -F models fitted out for Specops(MH-47?) and then upgrade the rest to the same specs. Then move them to Sydney and Perth to work with the SAS and 4 RAR. One offshoot of this would be the requirement for ~6 KC-130J for AAR of the choppers. They are also capable of refueling Hornets and Hawks(when they have the probe fitted).
I have heard that the RAAF ADG's have taken over the CSAR role from the SAS. So an MH-47 purchase would be useful for their training benefit as well.
The Australian reported that ADF may be the first customer for the CV-22 Osprey. Hopefully we don't go down this path, I think MH-47 would suit our needs and budget better.
With the purchase of the two LHD's hopefully there will be extra MRH-90's ordered to operate from them. I am unsure if the choppers are going to be operated by Navy, anyone expand on this? They won't have troops embarked all the time but surely the choppers will be a permanent fixture. Anyway I have spent a few $billion this morning, bye for now.

Hooroo
You have spent a few billion but I agree with your shopping list. :D 6 KC-130Js for the RAAF to back up a 12 strong fleet of army Chinooks, including at least some fitted out for special ops, would be a good starting point.

I don't think the navy has anywhere near enough MRH-90s on order (the 6 ordered will only provide a one for one replacement for a Sea King force that has already been reduced by attrition) although, IIRC, it was announced that the navy and army will draw helos from a common pool. I'm not sure how that would work - different colour schemes, etc. I think at least 2 navy MRH-90s (along with a couple of S-70Bs) ought to be assigned permanently to each LHD as a 'ships flight' with army helos being embarked as required.

The planned Tiger ARH force seems far too small. I know some of the Kiowas are used for training but 22 Tigers as a replacement for 40+ Kiowas (IIRC we originally had 56) as well as the UH-IH Iroquois gunships just doesn't seem to add up.

My understanding is that helos operated from the LHDs will be supplied and operated by the army but I expect a few naval helos will be regularly assigned for utility work as is the case now with Kanimbla and Manoora.

Tas
 
Last edited:

Navor86

Member
Well concerning MRH/ARH/CH47 purchase
All in all 56 MRH of which 24 would go to 5th Aviation,
12 for Navy as Trooptransport for LHD
12 for 171 Sqn as SpecOps
8 for Oakey as a joint Trainig pool
----------------------------------
Beef up the 6 CH47D to f buy 12 more
From those 18,12 should go to 5th Aviation
4 to 171 Sqn
2 to Oakey for Training
--------------------------------------------
ARH
Total:30
24 of those to 1Aviation
6 to Oakey
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Yep, I totally agree with increasing the size of the Tiger ARH force. An extra 8 - 12 airframes would really beef up the two operational sqn's. IIRC they are both based in Darwin(?), moving one sqn to Townsville would be a better move in my opinion.
I also believe the number of MRH-90 and CH-47 should be inreased. We really need at least a dozen Chinooks, buy 6 new -F models fitted out for Specops(MH-47?) and then upgrade the rest to the same specs. Then move them to Sydney and Perth to work with the SAS and 4 RAR. One offshoot of this would be the requirement for ~6 KC-130J for AAR of the choppers. They are also capable of refueling Hornets and Hawks(when they have the probe fitted).
I have heard that the RAAF ADG's have taken over the CSAR role from the SAS. So an MH-47 purchase would be useful for their training benefit as well.
The Australian reported that ADF may be the first customer for the CV-22 Osprey. Hopefully we don't go down this path, I think MH-47 would suit our needs and budget better.
With the purchase of the two LHD's hopefully there will be extra MRH-90's ordered to operate from them. I am unsure if the choppers are going to be operated by Navy, anyone expand on this? They won't have troops embarked all the time but surely the choppers will be a permanent fixture. Anyway I have spent a few $billion this morning, bye for now.

Hooroo
The only issue I have with this is the air mobility effect it would have on 3 Brigade and the rest of Army generally.

The Chinook is the only helo (we have) that can lift an M-198 howitzer i and a Blackhawk can only barely lift an L119 105mm howitzer which btw (by the way), are about to be replaced by the new "light" 155mm towed howitzer. This may end up being a "lightened" version of the M-198 itself.

3 Brigade at the least will need to retain it's current complement of 6x Chinook helo's.

By all means, acquire more for SOCOMD, but Army in general cannot be forgotten and it's needs are greater (in overall need for lift capacity, not importance) than SOCOMD, given it's "light infantry" focus.

The MRH-90 will not provide a capability that can replace the Chinook, just like the Blackhawk couldn't...
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Mortar section to deploy to Afghanistan

The Australian reported today that the Australian Army will deploy a mortar team to Afghanistan to bolster the RTF.

Mark Dodd | September 03, 2007
AN army mortar section has been put on standby in Townsville ready for deployment to Afghanistan, amid fears of a Taliban attack.

A section of 12 men - all mortar specialists - from 2nd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment are on standby for overseas deployment to boost security at the main base in Oruzghan province in central Afghanistan.

Two 81mm mortars and crew are ready to leave for the Australian Reconstruction Task Force base at Tarin Kowt in central Afghanistan - the first overseas deployment of army mortar men since the 1999 East Timor crisis.

Defence Minister Brendan Nelson said the government had authorised deployment of a 10-man mortar section equipped with 81mm mortars.

They will come from the Townsville-based 2RAR and will be based at the Reconstruction Task Force (RTF) at Tarin Kowt in Oruzgan province.

“During my recent visit to Australian troops serving with the Reconstruction Task Force (RTF) in Oruzgan province I was advised by tactical commanders of an in-service capability that would significantly enhance force-protection and response options for the operation,” he said.

“After consultation with defence chiefs, the government has authorised the deployment of a 10-man, 81mm mortar section to Afghanistan to support RTF operations.

“The mortars will provide accurate offensive support for RTF operations and will be employed within the existing rules of engagement applied by Australian troops in Afghanistan.”

The heightened security tensions follow a warning last week by Defence Minister Dr Brendan Nelson to Dutch MPs that any decision to remove their troops from Oruzghan - where they have been providing security for the Australians - could lead to an early Australian withdrawal.

"A couple of mortars have been put on standby to provide close-in support. It will add to the force protection and they would go to join the RTF in Oruzghan. At the moment it is clearly just an element of advance planning,” a senior Australian Defence Force official said.

Australia has around 970 troops serving in Afghanistan on Operation Slipper, most of who are based around a 385-strong RTF whose mission has been to assist with the rebuilding of schools, clinics and village infrastructure in the war-devastated country.

A separate 300-strong Special Operations Task Group comprising troops from the elite Perth-based Special Air Service Regiment (SASR) and commandos from Sydney-based 4th Battalion Royal Australian Regiment is also based in Oruzghan on a secretive mission to locate, observe and hunt down Taliban insurgents.

The Dutch parliament is considering withdrawing its troops from Oruzghan following a number of combat deaths and rising concern about the country's involvement in the war.

More than two weeks ago Australian forces notched a decisive victory against the Taliban with a US air strike killing 18 Taliban leaders, including senior commanders.

Dutch-piloted Apache helicopter gunships have also played a vital role in providing support for Australian patrols patrolling around their base at Camp Holland on the lookout for Taliban fighters.
The number of clashes between the Australians and well-armed Taliban has been on a steady increase in recent weeks raising the prospect that of additional security measures to protect the Australian engineers.

Other measures being considered by the ADF include sending sophisticated Orion surveillance planes and a possible deployment of RAAF F/A-18C Hornet jets.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22354008-31477,00.html

I am surprised that the RTF didn't already have mortars assigned.

Tas
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22354008-31477,00.htmlI am surprised that the RTF didn't already have mortars assigned.

Tas
SOCOMD did, with 4RAR's Mortar platoon having deployed there previously.

This is the first time a "line" infantry battalion's mortar platoon has deployed to Afghanistan and is likely to prove to be the first time that "conventional" Australian land forces have engaged an enemy with in-direct fire support weapons since Vietnam, hence the Government approval being "required"...

It might also possibly indicate the beginning of Government approval to undertake more "combat" by conventional Australian forces.

Or perhaps 4RAR's mortar platoon is simply undermanned at present and incapable of providing the necessary troops??? :confused:
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
This is the first time a "line" infantry battalion's mortar platoon has deployed to Afghanistan and is likely to prove to be the first time that "conventional" Australian land forces have engaged an enemy with in-direct fire support weapons since Vietnam, hence the Government approval being "required"...

It might also possibly indicate the beginning of Government approval to undertake more "combat" by conventional Australian forces.

Perhaps this is an indication that the government is moving to increase the self sufficiency of the RTF in view of the seemingly growing possibilty of a Dutch withdrawal.

Tas
 
Last edited:
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Perhaps this is an indication that the government is moving to increase the self sufficiency of the RTF in view of the seemingly growing possibilty of a Dutch withdrawal.

Tas
Possibly.

Rumours are that an order for Excalibur munitions has been placed by the ADF and a modification program for M-198 Howitzers is underway to enable them to fire them...

If so... :)
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
I really don't think the Aust Govt is considering pulling out of the 'stan. I can see an almost open ended commitment of Army and RAAF units. I really would like too see the Govt. put its money were its mouth is and commit a full battalion sized battle group to the fight. The govt has some cheek when it browbeats other govts about not pulling there weight. We have made some select and token commitments so far. Look at the size of the Canadian force in the 'stan. Australia is a similar sized power as Canada, so we should be looking to do a bit more of the "dirty" work. If Nelson continues to go around Europe criticising other countries he will end up getting put in his place, much like Barack Obama put John Horward in his.

Hooroo
I would like to see a full combined arms battlegroup deployed with an inf abttalion, some M1's if need be (even half or a third of a squadron, do they call that a troop or platoon???) 155's, the works. The ghan is definatly a place were we can win, it'll just take time. I have to say i am really dissapointed that the dutch are considering pulling out. I agree with Nelson on that one, it seems some of the continental Europeans are not as commited as they should be. As far as more dig's in the ghan, we are streached pretty thin dealing with Iraq, timor, the ghan, solomons and the rest of oceania. We could be in Fiji any time in the next couple of years and that'll be at least a battalion. maybe if we pull out of Iraq or when the extra 2 battalions are operational (are they 5RAR & 9RAR????) we could have a real combined arms battle groop with RAAF air support deployed indefinatly. But antill then it seems SOCOMD will be the only pointy bits doing the killing over there.
 

battlensign

New Member
I would like to see a full combined arms battlegroup deployed with an inf abttalion, some M1's if need be (even half or a third of a squadron, do they call that a troop or platoon???) 155's, the works. The ghan is definatly a place were we can win, it'll just take time. I have to say i am really dissapointed that the dutch are considering pulling out. I agree with Nelson on that one, it seems some of the continental Europeans are not as commited as they should be. As far as more dig's in the ghan, we are streached pretty thin dealing with Iraq, timor, the ghan, solomons and the rest of oceania. We could be in Fiji any time in the next couple of years and that'll be at least a battalion. maybe if we pull out of Iraq or when the extra 2 battalions are operational (are they 5RAR & 9RAR????) we could have a real combined arms battle groop with RAAF air support deployed indefinatly. But antill then it seems SOCOMD will be the only pointy bits doing the killing over there.
Four Points:

1) (From what I have heard) We are unlikely to be out of Iraq in less than a year and apparently the new battalions are unlikely to be deployable in strength until 2009 at the earliest.

2) Someone did mention that we have 3 Battalions "unused" at the moment. (what that means specifically for our ability to deploy them....?)

3) The new Units were a delinked 5 and 7 RAR (My conundrum: if they are delinked, which is the "new" one?;) ) AND THE 8/9 RAR.

(Then, all we need is the 8/9RAR delinked and the formation and delinking of the B Squadron 3/4 Cav into two full cavalry regiments.....and maybe another tank Regiment...then the plan will almost be complete! :) )

4) It is unlikely that we would be going into Fiji.......not before elections scheduled for some time next year. From what I here, PNG is more likely.....(Annex West Papua while we are at it?:p: )
 
Last edited:
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Four Points:

1) (From what I have heard) We are unlikely to be out of Iraq in less than a year and apparently the new battalions are unlikely to be deployable in strength until 2009 at the earliest.

2) Someone did mention that we have 3 Battalions "unused" at the moment. (what that means specifically for our ability to deploy them....?)
We have the ability to simultaneously deploy a brigade and a battalion in different operational theatres remember? :)

We have MUCH less than that currently deployed...
 

Eggy

New Member
Just to clarify some things. The Netherlands government isn't considering withdrawing troops because of recent casualties. The government is considering wether to extend the current deployment which is scheduled to end in August 2008. It was agreed upon that another NATO country would take over after two years but it seems like suddenly nobody is home. How typical.

The biggest problems for the Dutch armed forces are transport and attack helicopters. These are very small units that are overstretched at the moment. A few months ago the number of Apaches in Uruzgan was reduced from 6 to 4 to be able to keep them operational in Afghanistan untill August 2008. Another country will have to take over this role. Providing a battlegroup isn't a problem, the marines would love to be deployed to Uruzgan. The deployment of F-16 also isn't a problem. There are 6 F-16s based at Kandahar Airfield with 2 on standby in the Netherlands if things start to heat up.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Does anbody have the Orbat for 4th RAR Commando. Or does it fall under OPSEC?
They have 3 operational Commando company's providing a "green" role, a combat support company and battalion headquarters. TAG-East comprising SASR and 4RAR personnel is also attached to 4RAR.

What more do you need?
 
Top