Brunei Corvettes

[swerve]

I can think of several navies which they'd suit, but some have already bought similar ships (e.g. Oman, UAE, Indonesia), & others have funding problems (e.g. Philippines), which make them less likely as customers - though doesn't necessarily rule them out completely.

Any other potential customers? Somewhere in Latin America? Thailand?

 

[qwerty223]

So Brunei will just continue to rely on the 3 obsolete small FACs with MM38 aboard ? For a rich country relying on offshore oil that's a weird decision. The corvettes were too big, but that country needs larger and more modern FACs or OPVHs.

cheers

If you been to Brunei, you will have no problem to understand their decision. Make it simple here, Brunei is extremely short of labor, in every aspect.

 

[contedicavour]

I can think of several navies which they'd suit, but some have already bought similar ships (e.g. Oman, UAE, Indonesia), & others have funding problems (e.g. Philippines), which make them less likely as customers - though doesn't necessarily rule them out completely.

Any other potential customers? Somewhere in Latin America? Thailand?

well Chile and Brasil operate Sea Wolf and Exocet... and several UK-built or former RN ships. Given the delays with the Barroso corvettes, these ones may be fine.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

If you been to Brunei, you will have no problem to understand their decision. Make it simple here, Brunei is extremely short of labor, in every aspect.

Fine, but at least they should order new FACs to replace these obsolete Waspadas...

cheers

 

[E2R]

Hi guys, my first post on this forum:

I read a few lists of possible buyers in this thread. All more or less possible candidates. But my money is on Romania. Those OPV's -> FFL's are perfect to replace the surviving two Tetal I's. Maybe the third unit can replace the Marasesti (although it is reported that it will be upgraded to make it able to be used in NATO-standards) or the two more recent Tetal II's and they will fit nicely next to the 2 Type 22's (also with 76mm). The following fleet:

2 T22B2
3 F2000 FFL
3 Tarantul FAC

is a well balanced fleet for a small Black Sea navy and assures a more than capable participation in standing naval groups in the Black Sea and (once a few years) in the Med.

 

[spsun100001]

I certainly wouldn't bring them into the Royal Navy. The lack of an embarked helicopter limits their utility severely. It's the single most important asset on any warship. Not only do these corvettes not have an embarked helicopter but if I understood a previous post correctly their landing pad can only cope with small helicopters such as Lynx so you couldn't even fly a Merlin onto one.

I tend to agree with the arlier posts that these ships are neither one thing or another. Far too complex (and hence expensive to run) and heavily armed to undertake patrol duties but the lack of a helicopter makes it difficult to operate them on their own in high threat areas (such as the Gulf).

 

[Todjaeger]

I tend to agree with the arlier posts that these ships are neither one thing or another. Far too complex (and hence expensive to run) and heavily armed to undertake patrol duties but the lack of a helicopter makes it difficult to operate them on their own in high threat areas (such as the Gulf).

The lack of organic helicopter support for the corvettes might not be an issue, depending on who has them and how they're deployed. If the corvettes are grouped with other vessels as a team or task force, the other vessel(s) can provide the helicopter support. As an alternative, if the corvettes are in relatively close waterways, airborne support can be provided by land based aircraft. Such a situation I think would be particularly true if the corvettes were added to the inventory of a Gulf navy. I wouldn't think a vessel like the corvettes would be deployed on its own for long range patrols. Given it's armament and relatively good greenwater capabilities it would make more sense IMV to protect high value areas in the event of hostilities, ports, offshore oil platforms and terminals, etc since the design is really overkill for EEZ/fishery patrols.

-Cheers

 

[Systems Adict]

Not only do these corvettes not have an embarked helicopter but if I understood a previous post correctly their landing pad can only cope with small helicopters such as Lynx so you couldn't even fly a Merlin onto one.

Here's an extract from the Naval-Technology website...

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/


AIRCRAFT

The aft flight deck, approximately 285m², has a single landing spot for a medium size helicopter, such as the S-70B Seahawk. The ship does not provide hangar facilities.


While I agree that these ships would probably be better suited to say a Lynx/Super Lynx, it doesn't mean that a larger aircraft couldn't land on them. There are other A/C out there that could operate quite adequately from them.

And as for bringing them into RN service, as I've previously stated in this thread, I feel it would be a good move. Commonality with other RN vessels IWO operational systems such as Radars & the like, mean that there would be synergy savings of manpower training / retraining & spare parts.

I do understand that there would be other things that would be a neagative to this, such as the purchase cost, but still feel that the pros outweigh the cons.


Systems Adict.

 

[spsun100001]

Thanks for clarification on the flight deck capacity.

I'm still not sure what role these ships would take for the Royanl Navy viz a viz what it would cost to put them into service and run.

They are too heavily armed and complex to undertake EEZ duties and are limited in terms of anti-piracy/smuggling duties by the lack of a helicopter.

That lack of a helicopter and (correct me if I'm wrong) the lack of a sonar means they would struggle in high intensity operations or in undertaking independent patrols in high threat areas (such as the Gulf), and NGS capability is limited by the small calibre gun.

Say you tasked them with protecting an amphibious group. They could provide no ASW protection, they would need RFA support for even modestly ranged missions due to their short range and their size means they'd have difficulty keeping up in heavy swells (a problem we had in the Falklands campaign).

Unless they come free I just can't see what we'd use them for and I'd rather spend the money on something else.

 

[swerve]

...
And as for bringing them into RN service, as I've previously stated in this thread, I feel it would be a good move. Commonality with other RN vessels IWO operational systems such as Radars & the like, mean that there would be synergy savings of manpower training / retraining & spare parts.

I do understand that there would be other things that would be a neagative to this, such as the purchase cost, but still feel that the pros outweigh the cons.


Systems Adict.

But what role do you see for them? I see few places where the RN could use them effectively. They're too limited, too inflexible. Good ships for a navy always operating close to home, particularly in confined waters, but I don't see them as filling a gap in the RNs order of battle.

 

[contedicavour]

But what role do you see for them? I see few places where the RN could use them effectively. They're too limited, too inflexible. Good ships for a navy always operating close to home, particularly in confined waters, but I don't see them as filling a gap in the RNs order of battle.

Unless you use them may be in seas such as the Caribbean or permanently based in the Eastern Med from, say, Cyprus ? That would save a lot of money by preserving the Type 23s.

cheers

 

[spsun100001]

Unless you use them may be in seas such as the Caribbean or permanently based in the Eastern Med from, say, Cyprus ? That would save a lot of money by preserving the Type 23s.

cheers

Don't think they'd be any use in the Carribean as anti-piracy missions need a helicopter. That's why we've relied on a Royal Fleet Auxiliary (such as the Wave or Fort class) in the Carribean on some occasions as they carry a helicopter. That enables them to 'do the job' even though they have no offensive weaponary.

I'm afraid I can't get away from the concept that, for the Royal Navy's purposes, no helicopter = no use.

 

[contedicavour]

Don't think they'd be any use in the Carribean as anti-piracy missions need a helicopter. That's why we've relied on a Royal Fleet Auxiliary (such as the Wave or Fort class) in the Carribean on some occasions as they carry a helicopter. That enables them to 'do the job' even though they have no offensive weaponary.

I'm afraid I can't get away from the concept that, for the Royal Navy's purposes, no helicopter = no use.

Couldn't land-based helos and MPAs provide the required cover ? With the RAF base in Cyprus, for example, you have what's needed.

cheers

 

[spsun100001]

Couldn't land-based helos and MPAs provide the required cover ? With the RAF base in Cyprus, for example, you have what's needed.

cheers

Yeah, I'm sure they could as you suggest. But that just ties the ships to the apron strings of a land based helicopter which would take longer to get on station and have less time on loiter when there. Also, given these ships have no sonar (I stand to be corrected on that as I've only read one reference source on them and that didn't mention one) their main capabilities are anti-surface and anti-air. If you're near a land base then the aircraft there would be more effective than the ship for those roles in any case. I'm assuming that the ships over the horizon capability with its SSM's is extremely limited if it exists at all due to the lack of a helo.

 

[Systems Adict]

Also, given these ships have no sonar (I stand to be corrected on that as I've only read one reference source on them and that didn't mention one) their main capabilities are anti-surface and anti-air. If you're near a land base then the aircraft there would be more effective than the ship for those roles in any case. I'm assuming that the ships over the horizon capability with its SSM's is extremely limited if it exists at all due to the lack of a helo.

spsun, can I refer you back to post no. #128.

In the text there's a link to the Naval technology site, to the blurb about the Nakhoda class....

SENSORS

The ship is equipped with a Radamec 2500 electro-optic weapons director, which includes an eye-safe laser range-finder, TV and thermal imager and is used for gun fire control and surveillance. The hull-mounted sonar is the medium frequency Thales Underwater Systems TMS 4130C1.


....As for your other comments about suitability for over the horizon capability & being tied to a land based helo, well these ships do have limited helo facilities by the fact that they don't have a hanger, however they have AVCAT refueling capabilities & stowages for air weapons for the helo. These 2 facts make them an ideal (if small) sea base for a helo, thus allowing OTH capabilities.

In addition, the weapons & sensors suite have been fully integrated & operationally tested with the command system (with the exception of the missiles). Having a full 3D radar system (which is 100% compatible with those currently used within the RN), makes these vessels quite potent, with comparable fire power of a Type 23, in a smaller hull.

Finally, they were finished after the last Type 23, with up to date systems/equipment, this means that they are more modern than them.

These factors are some of the pluses I mentioned in earlier posts & also make them ideal for being integrated into a task force, if required.

Systems Adict

 

[spsun100001]

spsun, can I refer you back to post no. #128.

In the text there's a link to the Naval technology site, to the blurb about the Nakhoda class....

SENSORS

The ship is equipped with a Radamec 2500 electro-optic weapons director, which includes an eye-safe laser range-finder, TV and thermal imager and is used for gun fire control and surveillance. The hull-mounted sonar is the medium frequency Thales Underwater Systems TMS 4130C1.


....As for your other comments about suitability for over the horizon capability & being tied to a land based helo, well these ships do have limited helo facilities, by the fact that they don't have a hanger, however they have AVCAT refueling capabilities & stowages for air weapons for the helo. These 2 facts make them an ideal (if small) sea base for a helo, thus allowing OTH capabilities.

In addition, the weapons & sensors suite have been fully integrated & operationally tested with the command system (with the exception of the missiles). Having a full 3D radar system (which is 100% compatible with those currently used within the RN), makes these vessels quite potent, with comparable fire power of a Type 23, in a smaller hull.

These factors are some of the pluses I mentioned in earlier posts & also make them ideal for being integrated into a task force, if required.

Systems Adict

Thanks for the link on the sonar. I did say that I stood to be corrected and I was!

I still think they are neither one thing or another though.

1) Vastly overarmed for EEZ patrol duties.

2) Lacking an embarked helicopter for anti piracy, anti-smuggling or patrol duties in high threat areas such as the Gulf.

3) Without the speed, range or stamina to keep up with fully integrated task forces. The MM40 Excocets are outranged by most other SSM's, their small calibre gun is less useful for NGS and yet again we come back to that lack of a helicopter leaving it reliant on using that of another vessel.

I'm not sure they come close to Type 23's. Half the number of SAM's, a smaller gun, a shorter range SSM, no towed array and no helicopter. I'd take a Type 23 against these three any day!

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on their usefulness for the RN! Thanks for putting me right on the sonar though!

 

[harryriedl]

Unless you use them may be in seas such as the Caribbean or permanently based in the Eastern Med from, say, Cyprus ? That would save a lot of money by preserving the Type 23s.

cheers

Akatorie [the RAF base]should have the infrastructures to cope it was the center of the evacuations of the nationals from Lebanon and is home to a couple of Patrol boats. the corvettes would be close to Suez and would be well suited to the Persian Gulf with the much lower draft the T23 T22 which would allow it to deal with the Irainiain FACs more effectively and have a force which would be able to rapidly react to the changes in the middle east

 

[swerve]

Akatorie [the RAF base]should have the infrastructures to cope it was the center of the evacuations of the nationals from Lebanon and is home to a couple of Patrol boats. the corvettes would be close to Suez and would be well suited to the Persian Gulf with the much lower draft the T23 T22 which would allow it to deal with the Irainiain FACs more effectively and have a force which would be able to rapidly react to the changes in the middle east

I agree they'd suit our current Persian Gulf ops (as long as they have a shore base or bigger ship nearby, to provide support for their helicopters), but we should ask if we want ships well-suited to such a small niche, that may not be long-term.

 

[harryriedl]

I agree they'd suit our current Persian Gulf ops (as long as they have a shore base or bigger ship nearby, to provide support for their helicopters), but we should ask if we want ships well-suited to such a small niche, that may not be long-term.

Iraq and Astan,Iran will be going on for at lest a decade and if they can be bought cheaply [BAE have been rememberst by Brunei the full cost of the contract] so they could be sold very cheaply by BAE

 

[swerve]

Iraq and Astan,Iran will be going on for at lest a decade and if they can be bought cheaply [BAE have been rememberst by Brunei the full cost of the contract] so they could be sold very cheaply by BAE

Afghanistan & British naval deployment in the Gulf are not necessarily linked - though Iraq is.

BAe isn't selling them. Brunei has taken them away from BAe & hired Lurssen to sell them. Since Brunei has paid full price, Brunei will try to get as much as possible for them.