NZDF General discussion thread

[Bushwhacker NZ]

First off, I'm a young guy, second, this is my first post here. Be kind

I'm thinking of joining the NZ Army, it's a family tradition, my grand-uncle went to Malaya(I think he was in the NZSAS, not sure), and a cousin of mine served in the NZSAS more recently. What can New Zealand do to become a regional power? Well Kiwis would have to be more patriotic towards our armed forces. The government have gotta stop treating the Defence Force like a small group of people who help defend NZ but more like a coalition of people willing to defend New Zealand. Increase our GDP so that we can actually get better equipment. Helen Clark may not like the thought of our troops going into an actual battle, but it's not about her, it's about the soldiers, sailors, airmen and the fact that joining the armed forces is about fighting for
freedom, sure peacekeeping is o.k I guess.

Recruitment

Those ads they show on the telly, in particular the Army ones, thats rubbish. An animated version of our Army? They must be tryna promote BF2 or some game like that. Please, whoever makes those ads, show actually footage of our guys & girls doing what there trained to do, not some rank woman in her rank animated world. Raise awareness about the Armed Forces as well!
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These are things I reckon would greatly enhance our capabilities at becoming a true "World Class" Armed Forces

Army

Buy some tracked IFV like the M2/3 Bradley's, they would increase mobility in areas that the NZLAV could not do well.

Replace the Steyr AUG with a more modern & reliable weapon, such as the M16A4, a weapon the Army came accustomed to before the Steyr came along.

Buy an extra 24 or so Javelins, enough so the Army has good anti-armour capabilities.

Possibly invest in Main Battle Tanks, the Leopard 2AM seems good, even just 20 would do(Probably for QAMR, the LAV's could go to 2/1)

Self-Propelled Artillery, such as the M-109 could replace our old L119's.

Uniform. Possibly adopt one similar to the USMC MARPAT Uniform, this could somehow affect morale, somehow

Encourage soldiers to keep morale high, important if they wanna keep personnel.

Air Force

Buy Harrier Jump jets, they are most suited to NZ terrain because of V/TOL, this would bring back our Air Combat capability.

NZ should buy about 20-30 NH-90's in order to have frontline/reserve Heli's. Some should be in Attack configuration.

Again, encourage personnel, keep morale high

Navy

Arm up our OPV/IPV with bigger guns(57mm-87mm)

Maybe another MRV, more flexibility for the Navy.

Establish a Marine Corps(The New Zealand Marine Corps?) Elements of the Army could form this.

Another 1-2 Frigates for added combat capability.

KEEP MORALE HIGH! Navy only has about 1500 or odd sailors, lets hope it's about 2000-2500 in the next 10 years.
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Overall, we as a nation need to make a sort of feeling of compassion towards our Armed Forces. Cause as together, we can make it happen!

 

[swerve]

Bushwhacker, you're asking for a big increase in defence spending, & there are a few problems with your list. For example, AFAIK the Bradley is not in production & there aren't any secondhand examples offered for sale. You'd have to buy one of the alternatives, e.g CV90, Ascod, Puma, Dardo . . . . lots of choice. The Harrier is more problematic. Not only is it out of production, & not available secondhand (too late for the retired FAA Sea Harriers, I think, & in any case, they'd probably not suit), but there's no alternative on the market until the F-35B comes along.

With the numbers in the NZ armed forces, & its expeditionary role, I don't see the point in a separate marine corps. The NZ army is, in effect, a marine corps already.

BTW, if I was a New Zealand soldier I don't think my morale would be improved by copying USMC uniforms. I'd rather have a uniform which is recognisably "own country", & preferably reflects my national history in some way (but not at the expense of practicality, of course). But that's a personal thing, & others might feel differently. However, I agree entirely with you about the need to keep morale up, & sympathise with your evident frustration over the level of NZ defence spending & the quality of recruitment ads.

 

[FlashG]

Quick comment on Air NZ, which agreed isnt strictly the topic, but is "topical" at present. While it isnt a "State Owned Enterprise" it still has a very high Government stockholding from the bailout, and in fact it is consolidated into the NZ Crown accounts annually. And all NZ crown owned departments or trading enterprises and even district health boards have to advise their use of Air NZ so it can be removed on accounting consolidation! So it occupies a unique position. Plus of course it is still the national "flag carrier" which gains it access to other countries.

 

[Waylander]

Are there problems with the reliability of the AUG?

What kind of Leopard 2 you mean? If you mean A6M than I have to say they are defenitely not that cheap, the surplus A4s are cheap but are not up to date anymore.

 

[MrConservative]

I think well done young fella. Go give a military career your best shot. I agree that we need to be a little for patriotic here in NZ about our Defence Force. I think we are starting to get that again. The point you raise about the Leopard II being required is very valid. I agree, a Squadron with QAMR would be ideal. LAVs and a Squadron of Leps. But, of course we have to get around NZ$200 million plus it would cost based on the recent Canadian calculations. Thats why we first have get the GDP spend on Defence up to around 1.8% p.a. at least.

A Marine Commando Company rather than a Corps? Or are you thinking of the Ron Mark proposal to turn the NZ Army into basically a Marine Expeditionary Unit? I wouldnt go for 30 NH-90s not at the price they are. You could have an argument for another 4 NH-90s and top it up with A109 or AW139s. Choppers are really battle taxis if we want to be blunt about it. Maybe thats a bit harsh though.

As for Harriers sadly their days are numbered. Their replacement is the F-35B which would be a technical, fiscal and imaginative stretch. I think the only realistic future ACF option would be another lease of F-16's. Enough for a Squadron and a conversion flight. Ideally these would be Block 50/52 - C/D models. The problem with C/D models is the timing, as it all depends on what and when ex USAF aircraft get sent to AMARC and what the ANG requires - as the F-35A goes into service. Also how many flight hours they will have on the clock at that stage is another factor and the Falcon Up life extension programme seeks to get the sort of life hours out of them as we did the A-4K's. A lot of the earlier Block 10 and 15 A/B's were parked up at about 3500 hrs then went through the MLU and ended up in Italy and Jordan. But it doesn't mean that the later Block 50/52's would be parked up at a half-life stage, not with the life extension. The other option of Block 15's with MLU is still there for the RNZAF depending if we can find first rate examples. But even that is getting more difficult as the good ones are starting to thin out. Italy did pick up 34 flyable examples and 4 parts spares in a full 10 year lease package in 2004. These were early 1980s build aircraft and went through the re-activation facility and MLU. The cost from memory was around US$770m or $77 million a year. The Poles a little earlier looked into leasing 16 Block 15OCU on a 5 + 5 year full package lease with flight training and parts at around US$100 million or $20million a year. In the end they went with 48 new build F-16s C/D's.

 

[MrConservative]

Do you mean FlashG that the profits and dividends are put into the consolidated fund? Nevertheless unique or not, from the legal stand point even if Air NZ were operating under the SOE Act (1986) it would still be incorporated as an independent competitive trader under the Companies Act (1993) which means the minister cant stick his/her nose into it whether he/she wants to or not. Anyway back to the defence debate.

 

[swerve]

.... I think the only realistic future ACF option would be another lease of F-16's. ....

Swedish air force cuts are making secondhand Gripen A/B available. 1990s-built, low enough hours they wouldn't need a life-extension for quite a while, & could have any upgrade package applied you're willing to pay for.

 

[MrConservative]

Yep. They are a fine aircraft. One problem is that ACF re-establishment in NZ is connected with the trade - regional security paradigm. An FTA with the US is quite a priority.

 

[old faithful]

it would be great to see RNZAF up and running a FGA sqn, but sadly i just cant see it happening now. The only real option would be for F35,s and i think they would be out of reach now, Up arming the P3K,s with harpoon is a viable option. Another 4 NH90,s would also be of great benefit as would a 3rd ANZAC frigate. Another INF bn with veh (bushmaster?) and a credible SAM system would really boost the NZ defence force.

 

[Todjaeger]

Okay, from what I gathered in the posts, the NZDF Satcomm requirement still exists. The reason the NZDF backed out of participation was that the satellite wouldn't have the capabilities the NZDF needs, correct? I do hope that NZDF is right that there is will be another opportunity in the near future.

One question I had meant to ask yesterday regarding the NZDF. In NT and northern part of WA, the RAAF has several of bare base airfields it is able to rapidly deploy to and out of as needed. Is there any similar such availability of airfields in NZ? Not necessarily prefab airfields that are otherwise empty, but regional/muni airfields with sufficient resources to refuel do basic maintenance on RNZAF aircraft? This could become an issue in emergencies and/or SAR operations, particularly since the RNZAF doesn't currently have an AAR capability.

-Cheers

 

[Markus40]

There is RNZAF Woodbourne in Blenheim that has support facilities. Christchurch Airport has the joint US and RNZAF Antarctic base supporting transport aircraft such as the C130 and the C17 and C5. Cheers.

Okay, from what I gathered in the posts, the NZDF Satcomm requirement still exists. The reason the NZDF backed out of participation was that the satellite wouldn't have the capabilities the NZDF needs, correct? I do hope that NZDF is right that there is will be another opportunity in the near future.

One question I had meant to ask yesterday regarding the NZDF. In NT and northern part of WA, the RAAF has several of bare base airfields it is able to rapidly deploy to and out of as needed. Is there any similar such availability of airfields in NZ? Not necessarily prefab airfields that are otherwise empty, but regional/muni airfields with sufficient resources to refuel do basic maintenance on RNZAF aircraft? This could become an issue in emergencies and/or SAR operations, particularly since the RNZAF doesn't currently have an AAR capability.

-Cheers

 

[MrConservative]

The airport at Niue has recently been extended by 700m after a grant from the NZ Govt. It can now handle aircraft up to the 767. For those who dont know where it is or what it is - Nuie is a small Island State in the South Pacific. Niue is self governing in what is called 'free association with New Zealand', meaning that the Sovereign in right of the Realm of New Zealand is also Niue's official head of state. Most diplomatic and Defence obligations are conducted by New Zealand. Point is it always has the potential as a forward base for south pacific operations.

 

[Bushwhacker NZ]

Thanks for the feedback guys

Originally Posted by Waylander
Are there problems with the reliability of the AUG?

What kind of Leopard 2 you mean? If you mean A6M than I have to say they are defenitely not that cheap, the surplus A4s are cheap but are not up to date anymore.

Yeah I've heard stories about the AUG's were using, things like junk scopes & mags, melting parts from auto fire etc. The M16A2/A4 would be a good option, the Army were trained with the M16A1 prior to the AUG replacing them so that seems like the way to go. About the Leopards, any good variants that are cheap an effective could be an option. QAMR could operate these along side recon/comms variants of the LAV with the infantry support LAVs going to 1 RNZIR & 2/1 RNZIR

Originally Posted by MrConservative
I think well done young fella. Go give a military career your best shot. I agree that we need to be a little for patriotic here in NZ about our Defence Force. I think we are starting to get that again. The point you raise about the Leopard II being required is very valid. I agree, a Squadron with QAMR would be ideal. LAVs and a Squadron of Leps. But, of course we have to get around NZ$200 million plus it would cost based on the recent Canadian calculations. Thats why we first have get the GDP spend on Defence up to around 1.8% p.a. at least.

Yeah, joining the Army's been a dream since I was a kid, thanks man. Agreed, spending 1.8% or more on Defence is the only thing that will ensure the Defence Force gets what it needs.

Sad there aren't any Bradley's/Harriers being produced or sold, I guess the only other Fighter jet would be to wait for the US to (hopefully) put there second hand Jets on the market, with the F-35 Lighting replacing most aircraft in there Armed Forces and all, NZ could get these at a reasonable price.

 

[KiwiRob]

I thought the Army used the SLR prior to getting the Steyr? I was always under the impression the only the SAS used the M16.

 

[Waylander]

I never heard of anything like this from our Austrian neighbours. Are the AUGs build in NZ, in Australia or in Austria?

As for the Leopard.
It is hard to find a tank which gives you bigger bang for a small budget than surplus Leopard IIA4. But don't expect them to be able to protect you against very modern threats.

 

[Lucasnz]

I thought the Army used the SLR prior to getting the Steyr? I was always under the impression the only the SAS used the M16.

The army used the SLR and M16. The M16 was acquired during the Vietnam war and afterwards was distributed to a number of units (3 Field Ambulance). The navy also used the Sterling Sub Machine Gun(SMG) - (9mm). I'm not sure if the army used the SMG.

 

[dave_kiwi]

Re SLRs & Sterlings ....

The RNZAF, during the eighties, and prior (but I only joined in 1983 ) used SLRs for the "other ranks", and Sterlings for the SNCOs. (There was alot of derogatory comments about the Sterlings performance .. SLR was a more favoured choice)

Having had the opportunity to drill with both the Steyr and SLR, I definitely prefer the SLR .. though its certainly heavier.

The Steyr's I believe, are Australian manufactured .. there was a "minor" issue with the price NZ paid .. I believe it would have been cheaper to buy direct. The price of CER I guess.

 

[swerve]

....

Sad there aren't any Bradley's/Harriers being produced or sold, I guess the only other Fighter jet would be to wait for the US to (hopefully) put there second hand Jets on the market, with the F-35 Lighting replacing most aircraft in there Armed Forces and all, NZ could get these at a reasonable price.

Unfortunately, it's likely that ex-USMC Harriers will be too worn-out to be worth buying. I think they have, though to a lesser degree, the same problem as the UK. We're having to do a lot of work on our Harriers to keep them flying until we have enough F-35B to replace them.

Might be possible to buy some ex-US Harriers eventually & do a major rebuild, but frankly, I wouldn't want to be the last Harrier operator, with a few refurbished old airframes. I fear it'd be a constant & expensive struggle to keep them airworthy.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

An idea I have been mulling over for a while. The bobcat can be fitted with rubber tracks over it's tyres, turning it into a tracked vehicle. Why cannot the LAV be similarly modified. The V shaped piece in the middle of the wheelbase would have to be removed. The steering would have to be modified so it cam be locked in the straight ahead position, and the brakes need to be modified to allow for left/right braking for skid steering. The LAV would be wheeled for onroad use and in easy terrain, but could in a couple of hours be converted into a tracked vehicle for mud/snow/sand etc. Is there some reason why this is not possible?

 

[KiwiRob]

I was always told that apart from not being able to afford them the other main reason why we haven't had MBT's in NZ was due to NZ not being a very good place for tank warfare, hence why we only operated the Scorpion, getting a replacement for them would be well worth it and probably not expensive, maybe some more LAV's with a bigger gun like the US Striker Mobile Gun System.