Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

layer3

New Member
Now comming to the point, the basic look on the pakistani inventory.
The only thing that is noticable is f-16.Just the name is'nt gonna win a war.
The fact lies in the numbers.How many f-16's does pakistan really have?
And as far as i know, pakistan has not been given the rights to rebuild the airplanes in pakistan (Please correct me if i am wrong).

I am not being narrow minded, but, whats beyond the f-16? j-7 fishbed, it is a remodell of the mig-21, j-16, will it be able to hold off some of the best planes in the world???
What about some heavy duty transport machines??
What about some efficient bombers???
All these are essential, just the f-16 is'nt a big deal.More than 20 countries in the world use the f-16, that dosent make them all unbeatable.
Pakistan needs more aircrafts to give a solid backup to the f-16!!!

Your question can best be answered by "Lost decade of PAF" during which no noteable aircraft apart from F-7 PG was inducted in PAF inventory.

This scenario lead to project Super7 (JF-17) being completed before Indian LCA.

The second reason could be that Pakistani Military Calculations are always based on Indian strength. IAFs operational readiness is all time lower at the moment.

In my opinion IAF cannot claim Air superiority with just Mirage 2000s or MIG-29s considering that all of them cannot be throw in a war due to Chinease threat.

Regarding heavy duty Transport Machines I think C-130 is the best aircraft for this porpose.

For efficient bombers, both Pakistan and India have long range Ballistic Missiles, so why risk an Aircraft. Even two US stealth bombers have been shot down by Serbians. (Oneshot down, one damaged).

Last I think no aircraft can gurantee to win wars. It depends heavily on Pilot skills.

I have heard that (SABRE or someone might correct me if I am wrong) even obselete F-6 has beaten F-16 during an exercise.
 

layer3

New Member
I would urge people in here to go over the length and breadth of this entire thread and they would find that most of their queries have already been answered. This would save us all from similar queries being constantly repeated.

Come On Man, don't expect me to read 121 pages to get a simple answer.:)
There is no harm in repeating as we might explore new dimensions.
Any how thanks for you Guys (Escpecially SABRE for the answer).
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
I have heard that (SABRE or someone might correct me if I am wrong) even obselete F-6 has beaten F-16 during an exercise.
I have never herd of that, but some one did come up with A-5 (Ground Attack version of F-6) defeating F-16. I dnt knw on what grounds it defeated F-16. A-5's A2A capability is next to nothing. As for the simple F-6s, they were retired long time ago. However, my friends in PAF have mentioned F-7 defeating F-16 but that was because of the man, not the machine.

As for Shahikants questions; I think that has been answered million times by various ppl.

 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I have never herd of that, but some one did come up with A-5 (Ground Attack version of F-6) defeating F-16. I dnt knw on what grounds it defeated F-16. A-5's A2A capability is next to nothing. As for the simple F-6s, they were retired long time ago. However, my friends in PAF have mentioned F-7 defeating F-16 but that was because of the man, not the machine.

As for Shahikants questions; I think that has been answered million times by various ppl.

we had a Brazilian coming onto AFM a while back that visited Chinese aircraft making companies a while back looking to import and then the story was, F-7 at that time had 10 mock combat with F-16 and won 5 times and lost 3. After that PAF, decided to purchase F-7.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
we had a Brazilian coming onto AFM a while back that visited Chinese aircraft making companies a while back looking to import and then the story was, F-7 at that time had 10 mock combat with F-16 and won 5 times and lost 3. After that PAF, decided to purchase F-7.
I met one of the pilots (I still see him now & than) who defeated F-16 with F-7 & also by Mirage-3. But the thing is that he is actually F-16 pilot & was just giving the taste of F-16 in a dog fight to the new guys (new pilots for F-16s). Anyways, according to him F-7 is a good dog-fighter but at the end F-16 is far superior. In real combat scenario F-16 would have an edge over the F-7. But he also said not to under-estimate the F-7s (especially the modified ones PAF has).

An other thing famous is PAF F-7 defeating USNavy's F-14 (There is a pic of it on DT's galleries). According the pilot who accomplished it the F-14 pilot lost on purpose (later his senior told him thats what the Americans usually do --- loose on purpose). However, the pilot also said that although the F-14 had greater advantage & would have won if the pilot had wanted to, the F-7 did give a lot of trouble in WVR Dog-Fight combat.

The odd thing I have come across though is that only Pakistan (PAF) & China (PLAAF) have shown comfort with F-7s. Other countries, like Iran & Bangladesh, just keep on bragging on how China ripp them off of good money.
 

aaaditya

New Member
I met one of the pilots (I still see him now & than) who defeated F-16 with F-7 & also by Mirage-3. But the thing is that he is actually F-16 pilot & was just giving the taste of F-16 in a dog fight to the new guys (new pilots for F-16s). Anyways, according to him F-7 is a good dog-fighter but at the end F-16 is far superior. In real combat scenario F-16 would have an edge over the F-7. But he also said not to under-estimate the F-7s (especially the modified ones PAF has).

An other thing famous is PAF F-7 defeating USNavy's F-14 (There is a pic of it on DT's galleries). According the pilot who accomplished it the F-14 pilot lost on purpose (later his senior told him thats what the Americans usually do --- loose on purpose). However, the pilot also said that although the F-14 had greater advantage & would have won if the pilot had wanted to, the F-7 did give a lot of trouble in WVR Dog-Fight combat.

The odd thing I have come across though is that only Pakistan (PAF) & China (PLAAF) have shown comfort with F-7s. Other countries, like Iran & Bangladesh, just keep on bragging on how China ripp them off of good money.
other aircrafts known to have defeated the f-16's include the chilean and the singaporean f-5 tigers upgraded by israel and the indian airforce mig21 bison's,maybe it hints at some vulnerability of the f16 to smaller,lighter and heavily manouvering aircrafts .
 
other aircrafts known to have defeated the f-16's include the chilean and the singaporean f-5 tigers upgraded by israel and the indian airforce mig21 bison's,maybe it hints at some vulnerability of the f16 to smaller,lighter and heavily manouvering aircrafts .
Lets not get crazy now. Ask any accomplish pilot which would they rather fly in combat an F-16 or any of these other fighter(F-5, Mig-21, and F-7) and the answer would clearly be the Fighting Falcon.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I met one of the pilots (I still see him now & than) who defeated F-16 with F-7 & also by Mirage-3. But the thing is that he is actually F-16 pilot & was just giving the taste of F-16 in a dog fight to the new guys (new pilots for F-16s). Anyways, according to him F-7 is a good dog-fighter but at the end F-16 is far superior. In real combat scenario F-16 would have an edge over the F-7. But he also said not to under-estimate the F-7s (especially the modified ones PAF has).

An other thing famous is PAF F-7 defeating USNavy's F-14 (There is a pic of it on DT's galleries). According the pilot who accomplished it the F-14 pilot lost on purpose (later his senior told him thats what the Americans usually do --- loose on purpose). However, the pilot also said that although the F-14 had greater advantage & would have won if the pilot had wanted to, the F-7 did give a lot of trouble in WVR Dog-Fight combat.

The odd thing I have come across though is that only Pakistan (PAF) & China (PLAAF) have shown comfort with F-7s. Other countries, like Iran & Bangladesh, just keep on bragging on how China ripp them off of good money.
say whatever you want, this is not about F-7 being better than F-16 or anything like that, but this was F-7 flown by PLAAF pilot in mock combat against F-16 flown by PAF pilot. PAF ordered F-7 because of what happened.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
say whatever you want, this is not about F-7 being better than F-16 or anything like that, but this was F-7 flown by PLAAF pilot in mock combat against F-16 flown by PAF pilot. PAF ordered F-7 because of what happened.
Could be. I am not challenging it. No aircraft & pilot is invincible.
 

layer3

New Member
Guys... The point I made was not to creat another debate of whether F7 is superior than F-16 or not.
All I wanted to say was that one can never judge the strength of an Airforce with just aircrafts. Pilot training and skills still remains a major factor. There is no strength in having 400 MIG-21s and crashing them each month.
 

nero

New Member
Mod edit:

I'm starting to get sick of following you around the boards and correcting your posts.

Go to the official announcements thread, next time you are here. There's one specially for you.

AD.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sashikanth

New Member
Good pilots alone cannot win wars, good machines given to good pilots can make a deadly combination.What's the use of having good pilots when u dont have good machines.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Good pilots alone cannot win wars, good machines given to good pilots can make a deadly combination.What's the use of having good pilots when u dont have good machines.
Yes very true. However what we are trying to reiterate is that the pilot is the larger factor as to how well the aircraft performs. But no doubt about the point you have made.:)
 

seaprince

New Member
C4I System Of Pakistan

Description :

The Air Defense Automation System has been indigenously developed by Air Weapons Complex (AWC). The designed system collects information from all Air Defense sensors and radars, processes it, converts it into a standard format and displays it in real time at any desired location. The system architecture is independent of space, time and communication medium. The Command and Control System provides an environment for multiple functions to operate on the same hardware platform and share data via a Local Area Network (LAN) or a Wide Area Network (WAN).

The System allows the Commander to a view a fused picture of his complete Area Of Responsibility (AOR). It is a compilation of data from all Air Defense sensors, combined with battle plan, projection overlays, and any other data that is available, including:
current locations and planned movement operations of ground, maritime and air units of friendly, neutral, and enemy forces
generated features and projections (e.g. battle plans, operating zones)

Our engineers work closely with the customers to provide them customized, open, flexible and cost-effective solutions to their Air Defense Automation System requirements. AWC provides comprehensive Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) throughout the life cycle of the System.

SALIENT FEATURES:

Seamless integration with C4I systems.
Network centric design allowing self-forming and self-healing network (user can enter or leave the network dynamically).
Complete Air Situation Display (ASD).
User friendly and compact Graphical User Interface.
The System can be operated in different modes (Operator, Commander etc.)
Personnel training under simulation mode.
Scenario recording and replay facility.
Communication with lower and higher command centers.
Advanced GIS support.
Multiple layer architecture (Display of multiple maps).
Map features e.g. map loading, map editing, map color changing etc.
Preset and programmable zoom buttons.
Display of Latitude/Longitude, Georef and Grid System.
True battlefield scenario support.
Display of track history during interception operation. User can switch on/off history of track.
Track symbol indicating its category.
Track type indicates the threat status of the track.
Tactical interception aids available.
Radar on/off option.
Aircraft Plot Suppression Area (PSA).
Non-automatic track initiation area.
Weapons (SAM/AAA) status monitoring.
Use of commercial technologies.
Ergonomically designed Command and Control Console.
Easy maintenance.

MULTIPLE RADAR TRACKER:

AWC's Multi Radar Tracker (MRT) uses state-of-the-art tracking algorithms to detect and track all modern, fast and highly maneuverable targets, hence forming an integral part of C4I and Air Defense Automation System. It works effectively in high clutter environments and displays real time information for any command & control function. It can handle 2000 plots and 1000 tracks. This capability can be further enhanced due to scalable design of the Tracker. It can be integrated simultaneously with homogenous and heterogeneous radars.

The Tracker automatically initiates and reliably tracks maneuvering targets. The tracks initiation and maneuvering detection is enhanced with multiple sensors. The trackers update the display information at a high rate to form a true, accurate and complete Air Situation Display (ASD) for all air-defense and air-traffic control operations.


The main functions of the MRT algorithm include:



Inferring the presence of valid targets from a series of plots and tracks received from different radars.
Calculating optimally by the sensor the true trajectories of the target in presence of uncertainties imposed by the sensor as well as aircraft dynamics.
Recognizing and rejecting false targets.
Successfully tracking and predicting the optimal estimates of the target in the presence of clutter and false alarms.
Displaying target tracking information.
Forming correct association between tracks and observation from radars in different environment.
Successfully tracking the target during extreme conditions of fast maneuver, formations, miss detection, cross-overs etc.
Fusing information from multiple radars of different ranges, resolutions, scan times and other radars parameters.
Analyzing the influence of sensor modeling, radar processor design, and change of other system parameters on algorithm design.

AWC'S MULTI-FUNCTIONAL MOBILE C4I CENTERS AND C4I CONSOLES:

AWC has developed Mobile Command and Control Centers for Forward Area Air Defense Command and Control Operations. AWC has designed rugged rack mount hardware suitable for mission critical operations for mobile command and control centers. AWC has performed complete thermal, reliability and vibration analysis of the System.

AWC’s Command and Control Consoles are suitable for critical defense applications. The multi-functional Command and Control Consoles are suitable for mobile ground systems, surface ships and aircraft. It comprises an ergonomically designed rugged chassis, which functions as a protective shell for the electronics inside. It can be used in a variety of C4I applications.

This article is taken from Air Weapons Complex main website
 

nero

New Member
C4I System Of Pakistan

Description :

The Air Defense Automation System has been indigenously developed by Air Weapons Complex (AWC). The designed system collects information from all Air Defense sensors and radars, processes it, converts it into a standard format and displays it in real time at any desired location. The system architecture is independent of space, time and communication medium. The Command and Control System provides an environment for multiple functions to operate on the same hardware platform and share data via a Local Area Network (LAN) or a Wide Area Network (WAN).

The System allows the Commander to a view a fused picture of his complete Area Of Responsibility (AOR). It is a compilation of data from all Air Defense sensors, combined with battle plan, projection overlays, and any other data that is available, including:
current locations and planned movement operations of ground, maritime and air units of friendly, neutral, and enemy forces
generated features and projections (e.g. battle plans, operating zones)

Our engineers work closely with the customers to provide them customized, open, flexible and cost-effective solutions to their Air Defense Automation System requirements. AWC provides comprehensive Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) throughout the life cycle of the System.

SALIENT FEATURES:

Seamless integration with C4I systems.
Network centric design allowing self-forming and self-healing network (user can enter or leave the network dynamically).
Complete Air Situation Display (ASD).
User friendly and compact Graphical User Interface.
The System can be operated in different modes (Operator, Commander etc.)
Personnel training under simulation mode.
Scenario recording and replay facility.
Communication with lower and higher command centers.
Advanced GIS support.
Multiple layer architecture (Display of multiple maps).
Map features e.g. map loading, map editing, map color changing etc.
Preset and programmable zoom buttons.
Display of Latitude/Longitude, Georef and Grid System.
True battlefield scenario support.
Display of track history during interception operation. User can switch on/off history of track.
Track symbol indicating its category.
Track type indicates the threat status of the track.
Tactical interception aids available.
Radar on/off option.
Aircraft Plot Suppression Area (PSA).
Non-automatic track initiation area.
Weapons (SAM/AAA) status monitoring.
Use of commercial technologies.
Ergonomically designed Command and Control Console.
Easy maintenance.

MULTIPLE RADAR TRACKER:

AWC's Multi Radar Tracker (MRT) uses state-of-the-art tracking algorithms to detect and track all modern, fast and highly maneuverable targets, hence forming an integral part of C4I and Air Defense Automation System. It works effectively in high clutter environments and displays real time information for any command & control function. It can handle 2000 plots and 1000 tracks. This capability can be further enhanced due to scalable design of the Tracker. It can be integrated simultaneously with homogenous and heterogeneous radars.

The Tracker automatically initiates and reliably tracks maneuvering targets. The tracks initiation and maneuvering detection is enhanced with multiple sensors. The trackers update the display information at a high rate to form a true, accurate and complete Air Situation Display (ASD) for all air-defense and air-traffic control operations.


The main functions of the MRT algorithm include:



Inferring the presence of valid targets from a series of plots and tracks received from different radars.
Calculating optimally by the sensor the true trajectories of the target in presence of uncertainties imposed by the sensor as well as aircraft dynamics.
Recognizing and rejecting false targets.
Successfully tracking and predicting the optimal estimates of the target in the presence of clutter and false alarms.
Displaying target tracking information.
Forming correct association between tracks and observation from radars in different environment.
Successfully tracking the target during extreme conditions of fast maneuver, formations, miss detection, cross-overs etc.
Fusing information from multiple radars of different ranges, resolutions, scan times and other radars parameters.
Analyzing the influence of sensor modeling, radar processor design, and change of other system parameters on algorithm design.

AWC'S MULTI-FUNCTIONAL MOBILE C4I CENTERS AND C4I CONSOLES:

AWC has developed Mobile Command and Control Centers for Forward Area Air Defense Command and Control Operations. AWC has designed rugged rack mount hardware suitable for mission critical operations for mobile command and control centers. AWC has performed complete thermal, reliability and vibration analysis of the System.

AWC’s Command and Control Consoles are suitable for critical defense applications. The multi-functional Command and Control Consoles are suitable for mobile ground systems, surface ships and aircraft. It comprises an ergonomically designed rugged chassis, which functions as a protective shell for the electronics inside. It can be used in a variety of C4I applications.

This article is taken from Air Weapons Complex main website
.

.

when is the system being inducted ??

.
 

seaprince

New Member
.

.

when is the system being inducted ??

.

Nero,This system is already inducted in Airforce.It can also be used by Army And Navy, this is from the article

The System allows the Commander to a view a fused picture of his complete Area Of Responsibility (AOR). It is a compilation of data from all Air Defense sensors, combined with battle plan, projection overlays, and any other data that is available, including:
current locations and planned movement operations of ground, maritime and air units of friendly, neutral, and enemy forces
generated features and projections (e.g. battle plans, operating zones)

.Now Plans are to made separate C4I system for Army and Navy because it will reduce the work load and will enhance efficiency.Rumours said that work has already begun on this Project.
 
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P.A.F

New Member
Home-grown JF-17 aircraft better than existing F-16: Tanvir

KARACHI, Aug 7 (APP): Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmed has said that JF-17 aircraft being manufactured in collaboration with China will be a sound fighter aircraft which in some respects is better than the existing F-16.
Talking to media at a book launching ceremony of ‘PAF Over The Years’, he said about 60 to 70 per cent manufacturing of the aircraft is being undertaken in Pakistan.
The engine is presently coming from Russia but later it will be developed by China, he informed.
Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmed said talks are underway with China in connection with the acquisition of AWACS and a high-tech aircraft FC-20. “This mix will reduce our dependence on any single country’s assistance,” he noted.
He said the F-16 aircraft acquired recently as well as the modern weapons would further add to the technological advancement of the Pakistan Air Force.
He said a contract has been signed with USA for acquiring 18 new F-16 aircraft besides weapons and systems of electronic warfare and reconnaissance. This acquisition will be subject to the annual certification by the USA, he added.
Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmed said four used F-16 have been received while 10 more such aircraft will arrive during the next year.

http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14298&Itemid=2
 

WAR

New Member
Home-grown JF-17 aircraft better than existing F-16: Tanvir

KARACHI, Aug 7 (APP): Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmed has said that JF-17 aircraft being manufactured in collaboration with China will be a sound fighter aircraft which in some respects is better than the existing F-16.
Talking to media at a book launching ceremony of ‘PAF Over The Years’, he said about 60 to 70 per cent manufacturing of the aircraft is being undertaken in Pakistan.
The engine is presently coming from Russia but later it will be developed by China, he informed.
Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmed said talks are underway with China in connection with the acquisition of AWACS and a high-tech aircraft FC-20. “This mix will reduce our dependence on any single country’s assistance,” he noted.
He said the F-16 aircraft acquired recently as well as the modern weapons would further add to the technological advancement of the Pakistan Air Force.
He said a contract has been signed with USA for acquiring 18 new F-16 aircraft besides weapons and systems of electronic warfare and reconnaissance. This acquisition will be subject to the annual certification by the USA, he added.
Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmed said four used F-16 have been received while 10 more such aircraft will arrive during the next year.

http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14298&Itemid=2
====================

The news report seems to be a bit contradictory. Either the Air Chief is misquoted, or he yet to conclude about the parallel drawn between F-16 and JF-17.

See the first quote:

Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmed has said that JF-17 aircraft being manufactured in collaboration with China will be a sound fighter aircraft which in some respects is better than the existing F-16.
And now the second one:

He said the F-16 aircraft acquired recently as well as the modern weapons would further add to the technological advancement of the Pakistan Air Force.
OR

It seems that the headline is not appropriate. It does reflect to what we call in journalistic term -- a classic example of benevolent neutrality in contrast to objective outlook.
 

layer3

New Member
Does anybody got info regarding PAF's J-10 deal? Is it still being negotiated or finalised?? If finalised when and how many J-10s will PAF be inducting.
 
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