Im Not sure what you mean by all this but I'm guessing you are reffering to the western countrys. While I'm not trying to insult you I would like to point out that it wasnt the west who destroyed you agriculture and economy, your pres did a good job of that by himself, and while they may have posted sanctions they were only trying to get rid of Bob. I also dont think they have a personal vandeta to destroy all African countrys, they are just trying to help without getting into the same trouble they got into in the middle east. And while I cant say what SA will be like in 10 years, I dought it will get that bad.
Invade Zimbabwe call
- Thread starter riksavage
- Start date
invade zimbabwe
what is causing the problems in zimbabwe/[i think you need to find out what the real problem is and only then can you understand. ]
i am not strong believer in sanctions or coup but i think some solutions if they put in place using wrong information can cause situations like what is happening now.
people should not listen to onesided infor .why did the government act on farms and why do opposition parties fail to convince the majority it has more to do with alot of people involved .
destroying the economy and think people will change does not always work its also not democratic as you are forcing people indirectly to something they might not want.
what is causing the problems in zimbabwe/[i think you need to find out what the real problem is and only then can you understand. ]
i am not strong believer in sanctions or coup but i think some solutions if they put in place using wrong information can cause situations like what is happening now.
people should not listen to onesided infor .why did the government act on farms and why do opposition parties fail to convince the majority it has more to do with alot of people involved .
destroying the economy and think people will change does not always work its also not democratic as you are forcing people indirectly to something they might not want.
invade zimbabwe
what is causing the problems in zimbabwe/[i think you need to find out what the real problem is and only then can you understand. ]
i am not a strong believer of sanctions or coup but i think if some solutions are put in place using wrong information can cause situations like what is happening now.
people should not listen to one sided infor .why did the government act on farms and why do opposition parties fail to convince the majority it has more to do with alot of people involved .
destroying the economy and think people will change does not always work its also not democratic as you are forcing people indirectly to something they might not want.
i know if the economy of zimbabwe falls it affects sadc mostly so outside player are not needed . in the form of sanctions .
what is causing the problems in zimbabwe/[i think you need to find out what the real problem is and only then can you understand. ]
i am not a strong believer of sanctions or coup but i think if some solutions are put in place using wrong information can cause situations like what is happening now.
people should not listen to one sided infor .why did the government act on farms and why do opposition parties fail to convince the majority it has more to do with alot of people involved .
destroying the economy and think people will change does not always work its also not democratic as you are forcing people indirectly to something they might not want.
i know if the economy of zimbabwe falls it affects sadc mostly so outside player are not needed . in the form of sanctions .
Khairul Alam
New Member
well i dont hink outside intervention wud be necessary. the dire straits in which the economy currently is, will automatically lead to an uprising, if things dont change soon. inflation is said to be at 2000% :shudder the problem is that the government is printing more money to cover up shortage in revenue. so every1 has more money to spend and so prices keep climbing. another problem is the centralized control of exchange rate.
whatever the problem may be, it wud be naive to expect foreign military intervention. after all, zimbabwe doesnt have oil to draw attention
whatever the problem may be, it wud be naive to expect foreign military intervention. after all, zimbabwe doesnt have oil to draw attention
contedicavour
New Member
Oil no, but it does have some natural resources (otherwise what would Chinese companies be doing therewhatever the problem may be, it wud be naive to expect foreign military intervention. after all, zimbabwe doesnt have oil to draw attention
?).I think SA will have to do something because at this rythm the whole Zimbabwean population will have migrated to Johannesburg in a couple of years... and it's not like there were full employment for South Africans...
What a shame when one remembers how rich Rhodesia used to be... if only Zimbabwe had followed a path closer to South Africa !
cheers
Rooivalk; contedicavour; mosilotak; Khairul Alam;
Gents, I totally respect all your opinions - However, how do we fight this?
Zimbabwe National Army
30,000 Strong
HIV/AIDS Infected
HIV/AIDS is an enormous problem in the ranks of the ZNA and one that the Zimbabwe government has been much less active in addressing than its regional counterparts. Testing is not compulsory but a survey by UNAIDS in 1999 found that some 55 per cent of ZDF personnel were infected with HIV. This is about twice the national average rate. Moreover, given this incidence rate, thousands of soldiers must be expected to be absent from active service or well below necessary fitness levels at any one time."
"Janes World Armies - August 2007"
Gents, I totally respect all your opinions - However, how do we fight this?
Zimbabwe National Army
30,000 Strong
HIV/AIDS Infected
HIV/AIDS is an enormous problem in the ranks of the ZNA and one that the Zimbabwe government has been much less active in addressing than its regional counterparts. Testing is not compulsory but a survey by UNAIDS in 1999 found that some 55 per cent of ZDF personnel were infected with HIV. This is about twice the national average rate. Moreover, given this incidence rate, thousands of soldiers must be expected to be absent from active service or well below necessary fitness levels at any one time."
"Janes World Armies - August 2007"
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contedicavour
New Member
Leaving aside the human tragedy this implies, the ZNA is supposed to be the best paid component of that country's adminstration. Despite this there are rumours of impending coups. If the economy keeps imploding this sort of "Praetorian corps" is likely to force transition in exchange for keeping an influence over the next government.
Besides, most of these soldiers are busy doing political jobs such as strike busting or arresting opponents. They are probably not fit for opposing well armed peacekeepers.
cheers
Khairul Alam
New Member
Well Izzy i appreciate your concern. If the current situation continues, the Zimbabwean people will rise up against Mugabe automatically. Well i was wrong about the inflation rate, the unofficial one is said to be around 11000% :shudder
The Zimbabwean armed forces are supported by two guerilla armies, with a total strength of around 40000. Moreover, the armed forces control food-production and the farms that were taken from the white farmers. They are also involved in many ventures such as mining etc. So the military forces should be quite content with the rule of Mugabe, and hence can be expected to put up fierce resistance in case of any foreign intervention.
The Zimbabwean armed forces are supported by two guerilla armies, with a total strength of around 40000. Moreover, the armed forces control food-production and the farms that were taken from the white farmers. They are also involved in many ventures such as mining etc. So the military forces should be quite content with the rule of Mugabe, and hence can be expected to put up fierce resistance in case of any foreign intervention.
Unfortunatly the Zimbabwean people have just found an esayer root out of there troubles, they populate South Africa. as Oryx pointed out earlier about 2000+ are crossing our border every day with no signs of slowing down.
SA support for an invasion of Zimbabwe
SA will never support an invasion of Zimbabwe, particularly while Mbeki and the ANC are in power. SA itself is in the process of taking land back from white farmers although it is paying money for them. Mugabe meanwhile owns 26 farms between himself and his wife and has never paid money for any of them.
SA and Botswana have enough problems with Zimbabweans illegally crossing the border every day, a war no matter how short it is would send hundreds of thousand across the borders. The other question to ask is: who would replace Mugabe. Africa has a history of providing the world with some of the worst dictators and the only leader of an African country that I know of that has ever stepped down of his own accord is Nelson Mandela.
Then you have the huge problems inside the country. Lack of farmers and infrastructure. Inflation between 9,000% and 11,000%, over 85% unemployed, lowest life expectancy in the world, biggest AIDS problem in Africa, mountainous debts, infrastructure needing billions of dollars to update and fix, and the list goes on. You also might have a problem of some of Mugabe's clowns starting an insurgency. Once you have sorted all that out, the so-called civilized world can start the investigations and trials for the people responsible for the murders of approximately 30,000 Ndebele in Matabeleland, the torture and murders of thousands of other citizens, both black and white), and the theft of farms and businesses.
Remember that Africa like the Middle East is tribal.
Simple problem....very complex solution.
SA will never support an invasion of Zimbabwe, particularly while Mbeki and the ANC are in power. SA itself is in the process of taking land back from white farmers although it is paying money for them. Mugabe meanwhile owns 26 farms between himself and his wife and has never paid money for any of them.
SA and Botswana have enough problems with Zimbabweans illegally crossing the border every day, a war no matter how short it is would send hundreds of thousand across the borders. The other question to ask is: who would replace Mugabe. Africa has a history of providing the world with some of the worst dictators and the only leader of an African country that I know of that has ever stepped down of his own accord is Nelson Mandela.
Then you have the huge problems inside the country. Lack of farmers and infrastructure. Inflation between 9,000% and 11,000%, over 85% unemployed, lowest life expectancy in the world, biggest AIDS problem in Africa, mountainous debts, infrastructure needing billions of dollars to update and fix, and the list goes on. You also might have a problem of some of Mugabe's clowns starting an insurgency. Once you have sorted all that out, the so-called civilized world can start the investigations and trials for the people responsible for the murders of approximately 30,000 Ndebele in Matabeleland, the torture and murders of thousands of other citizens, both black and white), and the theft of farms and businesses.
Remember that Africa like the Middle East is tribal.
Simple problem....very complex solution.
Julius Nyerere? Just springs to mind immediately. There are more of course.
Also Kenneth Kaunda, Frederick Chiluba (his successor as president of Zambia), Leopold Senghor, Abdou Diouf (successive presidents of Senegal), Jerry Rawlings (twice), Akwasi Afrifa, Ketumile Masire, Siaka Stevens, Amadou Touré, Alpha Konaré (successive presidents of Mali), Joaquim Chissano - and others.
contedicavour
New Member
Well let's say some African countries have a more-or-less strong tradition of peaceful transition & "guided" democracy. Senegal, Ghana, Mali, Zambia and Tanzania are good examples of this. It is more remarkable that some countries with a long history of civil war (I'm thinking of Mozambique) are now joining the list. Expecting this out of Zimbabwe would be quite a stretch, even if we think of when Mugabe dies of old age...
cheers
the zimbabwe situation is a huge problem.. and i'm sad to say, as a south african our government is sitting on its hands.. and although everybody has been calling for action, we still sit with the problem today..
i guess what I'm saying is.. president mbeki will never betray his old friend president mugabe, in return for the help mugabe provided him with, during his time in exile.. and many, many ordinary zimbabweans are paying the price for this today.. innocent victims of sircumstance..
in africa, there is always a lot of talk.. and no action.. (i'm referring to diplomatic action)..
so, without trying to be nasty or overly negative.. this discussion might just as well be closed.. because no matter how many excellent suggestions are made here.. nothing will change..
i guess what I'm saying is.. president mbeki will never betray his old friend president mugabe, in return for the help mugabe provided him with, during his time in exile.. and many, many ordinary zimbabweans are paying the price for this today.. innocent victims of sircumstance..
in africa, there is always a lot of talk.. and no action.. (i'm referring to diplomatic action)..
so, without trying to be nasty or overly negative.. this discussion might just as well be closed.. because no matter how many excellent suggestions are made here.. nothing will change..
well no one will attack anyone till there were some strategic, military or ecomnomic advantages to attack, sanctions will be all that will happen, till there is a human tragedy that is hard to ignore.
No one will attack, even if mugabe government kills a small number of political opposition.
It is when tremendous mass murdering starts in a way that cannot be justified/tolerated by the international community will there be an all out military initiative.
No one will attack, even if mugabe government kills a small number of political opposition.
It is when tremendous mass murdering starts in a way that cannot be justified/tolerated by the international community will there be an all out military initiative.
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contedicavour
New Member
I would only add that the international press will have to communicate massively about this or otherwise don't expect armed intervention. Remember what it took to get AU and now NATO troops into Darfur region of Sudan ... or how much time it took to have a UN operation in Congo/Zaire...
cheers
centurion_ue
New Member
WOW!!NigeriaWell, it's sorta along the lines that you have:
- a "first tier" of well-trained, well-equipped militaries (Egypt, South Africa, Algeria, maybe Lybia)
- a "second tier" that gets outside help and pretty much has no indigenous defence industry (Nigeria, Kenya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Morocco, maybe Angola and a few others)
- also a "third tier" that while keeping semi-modern forces that "could be better" (Djibouti, Gabon, Sudan, Mauretania, Madagascar, Uganda)
- and then there's the vast rest, 20-30 other African nations.
In that context, Kenya is relatively strong
Sure, Egypt probably has the strongest force throughout Africa, even including South Africa. But, if you look at it in an African context, Egypt pretty much has zero involvement. Except when it comes to water as a resource that they want. Lybia and Algeria, in contrast, are far more involved in "African Matters".
Mod: In complete post. Centurion I recommend you edit your post or ask concerned mod to delete it .. including my post).
Don not reply to this.
centurion_ue
New Member
WOW!!Nigeria is a 2nd tier military power in africa?mind if i point a few things out to u?Well, it's sorta along the lines that you have:
- a "first tier" of well-trained, well-equipped militaries (Egypt, South Africa, Algeria, maybe Lybia)
- a "second tier" that gets outside help and pretty much has no indigenous defence industry (Nigeria, Kenya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Morocco, maybe Angola and a few others)
- also a "third tier" that while keeping semi-modern forces that "could be better" (Djibouti, Gabon, Sudan, Mauretania, Madagascar, Uganda)
- and then there's the vast rest, 20-30 other African nations.
In that context, Kenya is relatively strong
Sure, Egypt probably has the strongest force throughout Africa, even including South Africa. But, if you look at it in an African context, Egypt pretty much has zero involvement. Except when it comes to water as a resource that they want. Lybia and Algeria, in contrast, are far more involved in "African Matters".
-nigeria is the sole military power and stabilising force in west africa.if u doubt that,read more abt liberia and sierre leone.
-we have a military industry that produces light arms under license for our military and the police force e.g FN-FAL rifles,GPMGs,grenades,bereta 9mm pistols,ammo,etc(though it's just 20% of our military needs,it's far better than what u have in other countries),we also have facilities in bauchi state built by steyr were APCs are assembled and repaired.
-we've taken part in many military ops within and outside the african continent.therefore,except for south africa & egypt,i don't think any other african country has as much military experience as us.
-we do nt joke with the quality of training of our officers,NCOs and men.that's why we try to give them the best here & then send some of them out to other countries like isreal,UK,US,INDIA for more training.also,our military training establishment from the army depot,defence academy,flight schools to our war college train officers and men of some other african countries.our officers also serve as instructors in military institutions in other countries.
i could go on and on,but the list is quite long.now don't get me wrong,we do have our flaws and we're doing our best to correct them.but i advise that u get ur facts straight.
And that's why i put you at the "top" of the second tier.
Especially with the things you pointed out it wouldn't really be "equivalent" putting Nigeria in the same category as South Africa or Egypt. Grouping it with Morocco and Kenya seems far better in that regard.