Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

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kams

New Member
Thks ! While I'm clear on the Kolkatta/improved Delhi DDGs I'm a bit confused on the AAW FFGs you mention. Do you refer to the P17 / evolved design of the Russian Krivak-III ?
With newer AAW reaching the fleet it might be a good time to start deleting the old Kashin with their SA-N-1 (or update the ships taking the obsolete SAM out).

cheers
No, not P-17 or additional Krivaks. Indian Navy floated a RFP for 7 frigates/Destroyers (the line b/w them is not so clear these days) to European and Russian shipyards. 1 to be built in foreign shipyard and 6 in Indian shipyard, each costing about $700 million.

I am not sure about P-17s. In a recent News video on Scorpene construction, we saw a P-17 under construction, superstructure looked different than one to support a MF-STAR.
 

contedicavour

New Member
No, not P-17 or additional Krivaks. Indian Navy floated a RFP for 7 frigates/Destroyers (the line b/w them is not so clear these days) to European and Russian shipyards. 1 to be built in foreign shipyard and 6 in Indian shipyard, each costing about $700 million.

I am not sure about P-17s. In a recent News video on Scorpene construction, we saw a P-17 under construction, superstructure looked different than one to support a MF-STAR.
Thks, very interesting.
May be the new class is the replacement for the Kashins. Since the Indian Navy plans to have eventually 3 carriers, it needs 6-9 AAW FFG/DDG. That means 3 Delhi (though the SA-N-7 without VLS is rather poor in both range - 30km - and targeting capability - 6 max), the 3 much better Kolkatas under construction, and logically another class of ships with the NG Barak.

cheers
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No, not P-17 or additional Krivaks. Indian Navy floated a RFP for 7 frigates/Destroyers (the line b/w them is not so clear these days) to European and Russian shipyards. 1 to be built in foreign shipyard and 6 in Indian shipyard, each costing about $700 million.
Yep,

This is one reason why there is so much confusion over the Project 22350 FFG. Russia is producing a 4500 ton FFG, but has proposed a 7500 ton design similar to the 22350 with phased array for the Indian AAW program.

Many have these two designs confused, and treat them both as the Project 22350, thus why some sources say the Project 22350 is 4500 ton while others say 7500-8000 tons.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Yep,

This is one reason why there is so much confusion over the Project 22350 FFG. Russia is producing a 4500 ton FFG, but has proposed a 7500 ton design similar to the 22350 with phased array for the Indian AAW program.

Many have these two designs confused, and treat them both as the Project 22350, thus why some sources say the Project 22350 is 4500 ton while others say 7500-8000 tons.
If the main AAW weapon is the Indian-Israeli Barak NG and the radar is MF-Star, and if most ships are to be built in Indian shipyards, then the role of the bid's winner would be limited to design of the platform and support with engine and weapons systems integration ? Hmm not the sexiest contract I fear.
Unless the Indian admirals are ready to buy SA-N-6 or Aster-30 for these ships while building in parallel the Kolkata with Barak NG ?

cheers
 

kams

New Member
If the main AAW weapon is the Indian-Israeli Barak NG and the radar is MF-Star, and if most ships are to be built in Indian shipyards, then the role of the bid's winner would be limited to design of the platform and support with engine and weapons systems integration ? Hmm not the sexiest contract I fear.
Unless the Indian admirals are ready to buy SA-N-6 or Aster-30 for these ships while building in parallel the Kolkata with Barak NG ?

cheers
As per the news reports (not that I trust those reports completely), Stealth is main requirement for new frigates. Thats the reason to float the RFP to European/Russian shipyards.

OTOH, I am not too convinced about building 6 ships in India, because the all shipyards have their order books full. Don't know where the additional capacity will come from. :confused:
 

contedicavour

New Member
As per the news reports (not that I trust those reports completely), Stealth is main requirement for new frigates. Thats the reason to float the RFP to European/Russian shipyards.

OTOH, I am not too convinced about building 6 ships in India, because the all shipyards have their order books full. Don't know where the additional capacity will come from. :confused:
I see. From a European perspective I see the interest of building FREMMs over here and exporting them even if the AAW radar/missiles aren't ours.
I wouldn't see the interest though if both construction and AAW systems were done in India.
I imagine SSMs as well will be Indian (Brahmos), which leaves few components to off the shelf acquisition.

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
Delay for IAC aircraft carrier (source Jane's)

Jane's claims IAC's laying down of the keel is late by 1 year at least, thus delaying in service date to 2013.

Does anybody have more detailed info / confirmation ?

cheers
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Jane's claims IAC's laying down of the keel is late by 1 year at least, thus delaying in service date to 2013.

Does anybody have more detailed info / confirmation ?

cheers
hears something from the times of India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...ow/2269772.cms


After Gorshkov, another Navy project hit by delay


NEW DELHI: The bad news for Navy shows no sign of stopping. The country's most ambitious ship-building project, construction of a 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) at Cochin shipyard, is running way behind schedule. Sources said current projections show IAC will be ready for delivery to Navy earliest by 2015, after completion of construction and trials, instead of the earlier date of 2011-2012.

The IAC project, cleared by the government in January 2003 at a cost of Rs 3,261 crore after several years of dilly-dallying, is lagging behind on "almost all fronts".

"First, there was a big problem in getting 20,000 tonnes of special quality steel for it till SAIL stepped in. Then, there was a huge delay in procurement of bulb bars. Once these was sorted out, other problems crept in," a source said.

"The detailed designs and pre-production work also took a lot of time. As per revised plans, the keel of the warship was to be laid in October 2007 but this has been postponed by at least an year now. Consequently, the project cost will also go up substantially," he added.

All this will add to the woes of Navy, already grappling with huge delays in some big-ticket projects. The induction of the decommissioned Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, for instance, will not be possible before 2010. Rechristened INS Vikramaditya, this 44,570-tonne carrier was supposed to be operationally ready by August 2008, as per the Rs 6,900 crore package deal signed with Russia in January 2004.

Then, of course, there are slippages in the gigantic Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks, slated for delivery between 2012 and 2017.

In the IAC project, the government has even signed two contracts worth 28 million Euros with Italian firm Fincantieri for design, integration, installation and commissioning of the IAC's propulsion system, apart from consultancy in detailed engineering and documentation.

"But despite the steel being cut at the Cochin shipyard in April 2005, the ship construction began only in November 2006," said the source.

To be charitable, one can argue this is the first time India is building an aircraft carrier, which has been the preserve of only US, UK, Russia and France so far.

But almost all defence projects of India suffer from huge time and cost overruns, underlining the lack of proper planning. Though the Navy has projected the need for three aircraft carriers to emerge as the most potent force in the region, it is making do with only one, the 50-year-old INS Viraat, at the moment. Be that as it may, once it is ready, the 252-metre-long IAC will have two runways with ski-jumps and a landing strip with three arrester wires, with the flight deck being around 2.5 acres.

With 160 officers and 1,400 sailors, the ship will be able to carry 12 MiG-29Ks, eight Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and 10 helicopters. Powered by four LM2500 gas turbines generating 80 MW, the carrier will be able to attain a maximum speed of 28 knots and be operationally deployed for 45 days at a stretch.




The overhaul of a Russian-made aircraft carrier sold to India under a 2004 contract will be delayed indefinitely due to insufficient financing and poor management of the project, a Russian daily said Wednesday.

The contract to deliver the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to India, which state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed with the Indian Navy in January 2004, covers the modernization of the ship and equipping it with modern weaponry, including the MiG-29K Fulcrum aircraft and Ka-27 Helix-A and Ka-31 Helix-B anti-submarine helicopters.

The ship is undergoing modernization work at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, in northern Russia, but its completion could be delayed for at least another four years, according to some reports.

"The aircraft carrier is being overhauled at the shipyard, but, unfortunately, the funds allocated for the work under the contract are not sufficient and we will have a hard time to meet the schedule," the Izvestia newspaper cited Eduard Borisov, the acting director of Sevmash, as saying.

"We are practically building a new ship using an old hull and changing everything else," Borisov said, adding that the company's management had earlier made an incorrect assessment of the modernization cost.

A high ranking source in the defense industry told RIA Novosti that the company's officials had underestimated the projected overhaul budget by at least 60-70% but had denied their mistakes for a long time.

He said the work already done on the Admiral Gorshkov could be compared to the construction of two destroyers.

"It would have been much easier to start the construction of an aircraft carrier from scratch than to modernize the old one," the source said.

Former director of the Sevmash shipyard, Vladimir Pastukhov, has been recently fired over his poor management of the project and some media reports suggested that prosecutors had been investigating a possible fraud case over mismanagement of funds by Sevmash officials.

Izvestia said Nikolai Kalistratov, the general director of the neighboring Zvyozdochka shipyard, could be appointed as the new head of Sevmash in the next few weeks.

The $1.5-billion Admiral Gorshkov sale is one of Russia's largest individual military deals with India. The two countries are currently working on military contracts worth $10 billion.

After joining the Indian Navy, the 45,000-ton aircraft carrier will be renamed the INS Vikramaditya and could replace the outdated INS Viraat, a Centaur-class aircraft carrier, which India purchased from Britain in 1986
 

kams

New Member
Jane's claims IAC's laying down of the keel is late by 1 year at least, thus delaying in service date to 2013.

Does anybody have more detailed info / confirmation ?

cheers
Steel is supposed to be supplied by Russia. Only problem was it didn't happen:) . So SAIL and Essar Steel (pvt. company) developed the DMR 249 A grade, set up the full production line, obtained Lloyd certification for shipping in 2-3 years. All this completed in 2005 and supplied sufficient steel for plate cutting in 2005.
 

aaaditya

New Member
hey guys,check out this interesting article ,it gives some information on the indian navy's rfp for stealth frigates,it seems that lockheed martin is highly excited about it,seems that they want to offer one of their designs(i wonder what design it is ?) with one to be built in a foreign shipyard and the remaining 6 in india ,they are also partnering indian private conglomerate larsen and toubro and offering the indian navy the integrated platform and machinery control system.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081756361700.htm

Bangalore: To augment its surface combatant fleet with a new class of multi-role, fast stealth frigates, the Indian Navy has floated a global request for information (RFI).
The RFI was issued last December to a number of Russian, European and American shipyards for building one vessel in an international shipyard and six in India, most probably at the Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai, or the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata.
The deal is expected to be worth around Rs. 30,000 crore.
The Navy’s initiative comes in the wake of the inability of the Indian shipyards to deliver on time, and on account of delays in acquiring modern equipment in the past two decades due to constraints on defence budgets.
The RFI, the first official step in any defence contract, is followed by a request for proposal (RFP), the proposals, contract and price negotiations, before the deal is finally inked.
The stealth frigate project, named Project 17A, is part of the Navy’s plans to acquire a follow-up generation of ships to the ongoing but delayed Project 17, under which Shivalik class multi-role frigates are being built.
Project 17 envisages building a total of 12 ships. The seven ships, for which the RFI has been issued, form part of the project.
Lockheed optimistic

Interestingly, the Navy’s requirement for stealth frigates is being looked at optimistically by the world’s biggest military contractor Lockheed Martin. It has just replied to the RFI. According to Royce Caplinger, Managing Director, Lockheed Martin Global Inc., the company has also identified an overseas shipyard, which will build the first ship of this class for the Indian Navy.
Speaking to The Hindu from Washington, Mr. Caplinger, however, refused to divulge the name or country of the identified shipyard because of proprietary obligations.
He said: “We are hopeful of continuing into the next [RFP] phase.”
Lockheed Martin, which is also in the process of replying along with an Indian prime (Larsen & Toubro Ltd.) to the Navy’s RFP for setting up Integrated Platform Management Systems on the Navy’s ships, has thought it prudent to base a Maritime Sensors and Systems Team in India.
According to the former Vice Chief of the Naval Staff, Vice Admiral P.J. Jacob, India should encourage the setting up of ‘Greenfield’ shipyards if the Navy is to, as planned, acquire around 35 ships over the next decade.
 

aaaditya

New Member
hey guys ,great news here ,it seems that the indian navy has recieved indigenously designed new advanced excercise mines,and is also likely to induct the indigenously designed varunastra heavyweight thermal torpedos from 2009 onwards.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081751492100.htm

Naval Science and Tech Lab hands over mine to Navy


A momentous occasion: NSTL Director


‘Our ultimate objective is to achieve self-reliance in underwater systems and weapons.’

Our Bureau

Visakhapatnam, Aug. 16
Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL) here on Thursday handed over the advanced exercise mine (AEM) to the Navy. Dr A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), handed over the documents and papers relating to the mine to Vice-Admiral R.P. Suthan, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, at a function in the laboratory.
Describing it as a momentous occasion, Dr V. Bhujanga Rao, Director of the NSTL, said the lab during the 38 years of its existence had its share of successes and failures, but the Navy had stood by it throughout the period. Earlier, the NSTL had provided many systems to the Navy such as fire control systems in the helicopters and the lab would strive hard to provide the requisite systems for the Navy in future.
Cost advantage

Dr S.M. Bhave, Additional Director, in charge of the project, said it had been completed ahead of time at a cost of Rs 7.85 crore. Sixteen companies were involved in the manufacture of the advanced exercise mine, which could be launched from ships, torpedo tubes of submarines and mine saddle of submarines.
He explained the technical features of the mine and said it would cost only Rs 40 lakh, when manufactured indigenously, against the import cost of Rs 2 crore or so.
Dr Sivathanu Pillai, chief controller (R&D) of the DRDO, lauded the achievement of NSTL in handing over the mine to the Navy without any time or cost overruns.
He said the NSTL was currently working on two major projects – the advanced torpedo system called Vaarunasthra and a thermal-engine propelled torpedo. They would be ready in a year’s time.
He said, “Our ultimate objective is to achieve self-reliance in underwater systems and weapons. In this endeavour, we will take the industry – both in the public sector and the private sector – as our partner and forge ahead with the co-operation of the Navy.” He said 65 industries in Andhra Pradesh, several of them based in Vizag, were working with the NSTL.
Mr P.V. Rao, Director of Allen Reinforced Plastics (P) Ltd, said the company had supplied several components and the shell for the mine. “The NSTL has provided the software and we the hardware,” he said.
Vice-Admiral R.P. Suthan, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, who received the documents relating to the mine, said the induction of the system would be of great help in training the naval personnel. He congratulated the NSTL on the occasion.
 

aaaditya

New Member
I see. From a European perspective I see the interest of building FREMMs over here and exporting them even if the AAW radar/missiles aren't ours.
I wouldn't see the interest though if both construction and AAW systems were done in India.
I imagine SSMs as well will be Indian (Brahmos), which leaves few components to off the shelf acquisition.

cheers
hey contedicavour do you think that lockheed martin can offer india a 5600 ton version of the lcs design,is it possible to redesign the 2500-3000 ton lcs design to meet the indian navy requirements for a 5600 ton frigate?
 

contedicavour

New Member
hey contedicavour do you think that lockheed martin can offer india a 5600 ton version of the lcs design,is it possible to redesign the 2500-3000 ton lcs design to meet the indian navy requirements for a 5600 ton frigate?
Sure it's possible, but it would cost a fortune and it would be totally untried. If India wants a reliable design (because it has been mostly tested on the Horizon AAW destroyers and previously on Lafayette frigates) and a reliable cost estimate and timetable, then go for FREMM. If the programme however can wait another 5 years, then Lockheed stands its chance because in time its stealthy characteristics will be remarkable.

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
hey guys,check out this interesting article ,it gives some information on the indian navy's rfp for stealth frigates,it seems that lockheed martin is highly excited about it,seems that they want to offer one of their designs(i wonder what design it is ?) with one to be built in a foreign shipyard and the remaining 6 in india ,they are also partnering indian private conglomerate larsen and toubro and offering the indian navy the integrated platform and machinery control system.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081756361700.htm

Bangalore: To augment its surface combatant fleet with a new class of multi-role, fast stealth frigates, the Indian Navy has floated a global request for information (RFI).
The RFI was issued last December to a number of Russian, European and American shipyards for building one vessel in an international shipyard and six in India, most probably at the Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai, or the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata.
The deal is expected to be worth around Rs. 30,000 crore.
The Navy’s initiative comes in the wake of the inability of the Indian shipyards to deliver on time, and on account of delays in acquiring modern equipment in the past two decades due to constraints on defence budgets.
The RFI, the first official step in any defence contract, is followed by a request for proposal (RFP), the proposals, contract and price negotiations, before the deal is finally inked.
The stealth frigate project, named Project 17A, is part of the Navy’s plans to acquire a follow-up generation of ships to the ongoing but delayed Project 17, under which Shivalik class multi-role frigates are being built.
Project 17 envisages building a total of 12 ships. The seven ships, for which the RFI has been issued, form part of the project.
Lockheed optimistic

Interestingly, the Navy’s requirement for stealth frigates is being looked at optimistically by the world’s biggest military contractor Lockheed Martin. It has just replied to the RFI. According to Royce Caplinger, Managing Director, Lockheed Martin Global Inc., the company has also identified an overseas shipyard, which will build the first ship of this class for the Indian Navy.
Speaking to The Hindu from Washington, Mr. Caplinger, however, refused to divulge the name or country of the identified shipyard because of proprietary obligations.
He said: “We are hopeful of continuing into the next [RFP] phase.”
Lockheed Martin, which is also in the process of replying along with an Indian prime (Larsen & Toubro Ltd.) to the Navy’s RFP for setting up Integrated Platform Management Systems on the Navy’s ships, has thought it prudent to base a Maritime Sensors and Systems Team in India.
According to the former Vice Chief of the Naval Staff, Vice Admiral P.J. Jacob, India should encourage the setting up of ‘Greenfield’ shipyards if the Navy is to, as planned, acquire around 35 ships over the next decade.
My oh my it's so confusing : the stealth FFGs are not part of P17 or are they ? In the same sentence they say one thing and its opposite :confused: How can one think that inside the same programme there may be stealth FFGs and another design ??

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
Steel is supposed to be supplied by Russia. Only problem was it didn't happen:) . So SAIL and Essar Steel (pvt. company) developed the DMR 249 A grade, set up the full production line, obtained Lloyd certification for shipping in 2-3 years. All this completed in 2005 and supplied sufficient steel for plate cutting in 2005.
Strange things happen... in the land of world leader (in steel) Mittal, issues with high performance steel would be delaying the building of the IAC ? :rolleyes:

cheers
 

kams

New Member
Strange things happen... in the land of world leader (in steel) Mittal, issues with high performance steel would be delaying the building of the IAC ? :rolleyes:

cheers
:D :D Well apparently, steel mills prefer rolling commercial grade of steel for which demand is high and so is profit margin. Military grade steel for ship building is not high on their list of priorities. :D . However it shouldn't be too difficult to procure required grade of steel from any other part of the world (say South Korea). It looks like another case of bad project management, govt. bean counters objecting to spending couple of penny/T more etc tec.

In any case this is old news, delay in keel laying may not be related to steel supply as it is produced domestically.

Coming to Stealth firgate,although the reporter is calling them P-17A, extention of P-17 class, both classes may have very little in common. P-17A is supposed to have 8 Brahmos in VLS configuration.
 

aaaditya

New Member
Sure it's possible, but it would cost a fortune and it would be totally untried. If India wants a reliable design (because it has been mostly tested on the Horizon AAW destroyers and previously on Lafayette frigates) and a reliable cost estimate and timetable, then go for FREMM. If the programme however can wait another 5 years, then Lockheed stands its chance because in time its stealthy characteristics will be remarkable.

cheers
i dont think,that the fremm design will be as modular ,operationally flexible ,and fast as the lcs.

also i dont think money would be much of a problem,this deal amounts to about 900 million dollars /ship.

can you give me the estimated costs of the fremm and the other european designed warships,it would be realy great.

also i believe that the us lcs was based on an italian design by fincantiery ,can you provide any information about this?
 

contedicavour

New Member
i dont think,that the fremm design will be as modular ,operationally flexible ,and fast as the lcs.

also i dont think money would be much of a problem,this deal amounts to about 900 million dollars /ship.

can you give me the estimated costs of the fremm and the other european designed warships,it would be realy great.

also i believe that the us lcs was based on an italian design by fincantiery ,can you provide any information about this?
The design you mention is that of the Destriero, a very fast ship that has been used as the base for the Saettia large FACs (with all diesels it has a top speed in excess of 40kn though in our Coast Guard service only 2/3 of the diesels are installed). Since Fincantieri is leader in the high speed transport ship sector (and in the luxury yacht ;-)) it is involved with Lockheed Martin's bid for LCS.
In the Italian version FREMM costs 350 million euro each (excl R&D and cost of weapons), in the French version 280. Total cost is more about 550 million euro each for the Italian ones. Multiply by 1.34 and you reach 740 mln USD.

cheers
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Project 17 Specifications

Displacement 4600 tons, Full - 5000+ tons
Length 143 m
Beam 17 m
Draft 4.5 m
Moulded Depth 9.2 m
Speed 30 knots for GT operations
22 knots cruising speed on diesels.
Crew 35 Officers
222 Enlisted
India is looking at the Lockheed Martin LCS MMC design, not the Lockheed Martin LCS design for the US Navy.

Keep in mind Israel is looking at the same ship, and is involved in weapons development with India that would be integrated into this same ship.
 
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