Naval Forces - Asia

[swerve]

The Chinese government also thinks that its a jobs generator, though the same can be said of the F-22. The money is only circulated within the economy, with the exception of the 3 million dollars spent on the engine, which goes to the Russians. So which is really more harmful? Hypothetically you spend $150 million on a domestic product that helps pay for domestic jobs, or spend $60 million which flies away to another country.

A sound point, but doesn't affect the basic fact that most military spending is government consumption. Better when spent internally than externally, as you say, but still spending diverted from elsewhere.

 

[crobato]

The Indian Kilos have since been upgraded - would that bring them up to or better the 636 Kilos ?

Upgraded in terms of weaponry and electronics. The same with the Project 636EM of which the Project 877EKM is the direct equivalent. What does upgrades don't include is the main thing that makes the 636 different from the 877---a much quieter slow turning seven bladed skewed prop compared to the older six bladed screw. Accompanying this screw are mechanical changes that should include a different gearbox for the new gear reduction ratios. Overall, the length of the 636 is slightly longer than the 877. Its hard to see or say why the 636 ended up being slightly longer, and one reason in my mind is that it was probably meant to accommodate a longer gearbox.

 

[crobato]

A sound point, but doesn't affect the basic fact that most military spending is government consumption. Better when spent internally than externally, as you say, but still spending diverted from elsewhere.

Spending it on like in lavishingly reconstructing Beijing City into a sci-fi futuristic city? The government just built the most expensive building in the world, the CCTV building at 800 million US dollars, with its strange Z like architecture. Then they went on and built the second most expensive building in the world right next to it. Spend the money like buying the Blackstone group, which then went on to acquire the Hilton hotel chain? More US treasury bonds? They got money to burn, and they have a problem what everyone wants to have---how to use that money. The interest alone the US has to pay for those bonds are in the billions each year, more than enough to soak up many times over the purchases of J-10s each year.

 

[Jade]

Upgraded in terms of weaponry and electronics. The same with the Project 636EM of which the Project 877EKM is the direct equivalent. What does upgrades don't include is the main thing that makes the 636 different from the 877---a much quieter slow turning seven bladed skewed prop compared to the older six bladed screw. Accompanying this screw are mechanical changes that should include a different gearbox for the new gear reduction ratios. Overall, the length of the 636 is slightly longer than the 877. Its hard to see or say why the 636 ended up being slightly longer, and one reason in my mind is that it was probably meant to accommodate a longer gearbox.

Thnx, how would you rate it after the upgrade vs the Kilo 636 say or the Scorpene ?

 

[crobato]

The Kilo 636 itself had an upgrade called the 636EM. So essentially the 636EM and the 877KEM are weapons and systems wise, identical. The only difference is that the 636EM should be more quiet because of the asymmetrical screw when everything else is the same.

 

[Jade]

crobato, what do you think of Russia'a Akula sub?

How does it match up with the european and American competition ?

 

[crobato]

I don't know that much about the Akula class SSN sub. So far from what I heard and in my opinion, the sub is probably around the early to mid 688 class when it comes to noise, but probably behind the later 688s or the latest refitted 688s. Compared to previous Soviet sub classes, the Akula class SSN is noted for being the first SU sub to be fitted with a slow turning skewed screw, whose complex geometries are made possible by a 5 axis milling machine that Toshiba sold to the Soviet Union. Of course that made a furor in the Congress. The Akula class also benefited from the information the spy John Walker handed over to the Soviets. The Akula was the last Soviet sub to be fitted with such, since the SU would become history, but similar screws would be fitted on later Russian flagged subs like the Kilo 636 and the Borei.

The late 688 is probably as far as you can get with a nuclear sub using pressurized steam nuclear reactors and these asymmetrical screws. To get to the next level, ala Seawolf/Virginia/Astute/Truimphant and so on, you need to go screw less on the propulsion, using pump jet or magnetic-caterpillar drive technology (or magnetoheterodyne or whatever its called). Further down the road, we have to leave pressurized steam cooled reactors and go with new reactor types, like HTGR or gas cooled reactors.

So in a way, the Akula is already obsolete against the next generation of pump jet propulsion submarines.

 

[contedicavour]

I wonder if the Severodvinsk new class of SSNs is approaching operational status or if all priority has been given to Borei SSBN construction ?

Does the new SSN have pump jet propulsion ?

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interesting article,it gives some information on the type of steel used on the indian navy warships and submarines.

here is the link and the article:

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/story/138755/


Kolkata, May 29 Government-owned Steel Authority of India Ltd (SAIL) is set to develop special steel plates for use by the Indian Navy’s submarine project. The Navy has plans to build 12 submarines, for which it needs DMR 249B grade plates, as specified by the Defence Metallurgical Research (DMR) Laboratory. SAIL has given the job to its Bhilai Steel Plant, which earns the highest profits in the SAIL family.
Vice-admiral Pravesh Jaitly, chief of materials of the Indian Navy, recently visited Bhilai to discuss the issue with the plant’s managing director RP Singh and other senior officers. Bhilai has already developed DMR 249A grade plates with the support of the SAIL’s research wing. This grade is used in warship hulls. Both grades are nickel-bearing micro-alloyed steel, characterised by higher strength and superior toughness at temperatures as low as -60 degree C. The DMR 249B grade will have more strength, toughness and corrosion resistance than the former.
“We have asked the Navy to submit their specifications for submarine grade plates. As soon as we get them, we will start putting up facilities and take other proactive steps to develop this grade as well,” Mr Singh told FE.
He admits that the Navy’s order for the special grade of plates may not be of significant commercial value. “For us, partnering in meeting the nation’s defence needs would certainly be a matter of pride,” he said.
The Chhattisgarh-based plant reported a profit before tax (PBT) of over Rs 4,000 crore in 2004-05 against SAIL’s PBT of Rs 9,365 crore. The Navy has focussed on indigenisation since the 1960s and now has a fleet that boasts of ships with 85 to 90% components made in India in critical areas like propulsion, radar and weaponry. But what was so far missing was the steel plates, which had to be imported. The Navy has placed orders for 18 warships with the Cochin Shipyard in Kerala and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd in Kolkata. For this order, Bhilai is to supply 4,910 tonne of DMR 249A grade plate

 

[crobato]

I wonder if the Severodvinsk new class of SSNs is approaching operational status or if all priority has been given to Borei SSBN construction ?

Does the new SSN have pump jet propulsion ?

cheers

That one I really don't know. The Borei is a little bit disappointing that it still came out with a screw, albeit the skewed one. The latter is also seen on the new Lada subs, but for diesels, you are not in the rush to use pump jets as the value of using that comes in only at higher water speeds.

As one poster brought out the topic of steel, it is interesting Soviet sub often use titanium to reduce magnetic detection of subs. It is also said that the Type 212 also uses anti-magnetic metals or alloys, but the export Type 214 uses steels.

 

[Jade]

That one I really don't know. The Borei is a little bit disappointing that it still came out with a screw, albeit the skewed one. The latter is also seen on the new Lada subs, but for diesels, you are not in the rush to use pump jets as the value of using that comes in only at higher water speeds.

As one poster brought out the topic of steel, it is interesting Soviet sub often use titanium to reduce magnetic detection of subs. It is also said that the Type 212 also uses anti-magnetic metals or alloys, but the export Type 214 uses steels.

Yeah, Aaditiya, why don't the Indians use Tataniums for theior hulls ?

 

[aaaditya]

Yeah, Aaditiya, why don't the Indians use Tataniums for theior hulls ?

indians have one of the largest reserves of titanium in the world,however the problem is that though they have mining capability ,they do not have the machining capability to develop ultra high grade titanium products,so they export most of their titanium as raw material to russia and japan,however one of the leading indian private sector companies (the tata limited) is setting up one of the largest titanium mines and production facility in southern india ,i believe that they are recieving russian assistance for this project ,about 30% of the production from this facility will be exclusively for the indian navy.

there were in reports in a janes(i believe 1988 edition) magazine ,that india wanted to use titanium for the construction of its atv and that the russians were assisting india with the machining capability ,however it proved to be very expensive at that time when there was a severe shortage of foreign exchange and the collapse of soviet union considerably delayed the efforts ,forcing india to use steel.

 

[su-30mki]

Yes, truely,,,

the russians are our true friends.Time ppl understand this.

 

[su-30mki]

The Asia-Pacific region has emerged as the hub of global geo-political, geo-economic and geo-strategic significance in the post-Cold War period. The rise of China and the resurgence of India will be the hallmark for the next 50 years. How this surge in power is accommodated by the incumbent powers like the United States and Japan, and how the new regional powers like China and India manage the power politics that emerge will be the key determinants of regional stability.

This volume examines the national maritime doctrines as well as the nuclear weapons developments at sea of the four major powers in the Asia-Pacific, namely, China, India, Japan and the United States, to see if the evolving dynamic is a cooperative or a competitive one. In particular, the volume looks at the evolving paradigms of maritime transformation in strategy and technology; the emergent new maritime doctrines and evolving force postures in the naval orders of battle; the role and operations of nuclear navies in the Asia-Pacific; and the implications and impact of nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles and sea-based missile defence responses in the region.

 

[crobato]

indians have one of the largest reserves of titanium in the world,however the problem is that though they have mining capability ,they do not have the machining capability to develop ultra high grade titanium products,so they export most of their titanium as raw material to russia and japan,however one of the leading indian private sector companies (the tata limited) is setting up one of the largest titanium mines and production facility in southern india ,i believe that they are recieving russian assistance for this project ,about 30% of the production from this facility will be exclusively for the indian navy.

there were in reports in a janes(i believe 1988 edition) magazine ,that india wanted to use titanium for the construction of its atv and that the russians were assisting india with the machining capability ,however it proved to be very expensive at that time when there was a severe shortage of foreign exchange and the collapse of soviet union considerably delayed the efforts ,forcing india to use steel.

The Russians, despite having the most titanium in the world, has quit using titanium for their subs and now going for using high strength demagnetized steel instead.

Its a true pain to work with titanium especially if you are trying to weld it with other metals.