F-15 to stay in service until at least 2025.
- Thread starter F-15 Eagle
- Start date
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Thank you for the link!
I have to say the content sounds a bit odd and different from the general assumptions here.
To me it reads like only two squads (Elmendorf and Kadena) will get the v2 ("and that's all there will ever be in the inventory for the Air Force"), with the Elmendorf units being moved to Kadena once the F-22 goes to Alaska, and the rest of the F-15C squads getting other miscellaneous upgrades only.
And no v3 is being mentioned at all. What gives?
I have to say the content sounds a bit odd and different from the general assumptions here.
To me it reads like only two squads (Elmendorf and Kadena) will get the v2 ("and that's all there will ever be in the inventory for the Air Force"), with the Elmendorf units being moved to Kadena once the F-22 goes to Alaska, and the rest of the F-15C squads getting other miscellaneous upgrades only.
And no v3 is being mentioned at all. What gives?
Raytheon says plenty about V3, e.g.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/m...K=RTNB&STORY=/www/story/08-07-2006/0004411412
And I found this -
http://www.defenselink.mil/comptrol...Omnibus 2006-Final-Implementation-9-30-06.pdf
See page 47 - APG-63(V)3 for 12 ANG F-15C - HAC DENIED. I think that means funding not approved.
(courtesy of your friendly neighbourhood search engine)
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
178x aircraft is a tad more than 2x squadrons.
Elmendorf and Kadena are air bases, not squadrons.
178 aircraft should be enough to equip 6x operational squadrons, add this to 6x F-22 Squadrons and maybe 17-18 F-35 Squadrons and the USAF will maintain it's formidable status quite nicely I should think...
I've just re-read it. It doesn't say anything about any more (v)2 uprgrades.
"Under this program 178 F-15's will receive a wide variety of upgrades over the next 10 years, which will allow the jet to stay up-to-date. The v2 AESA radar system was part of this program"
and
'"Congress funded [a specific number of] systems and that's all there will ever be in the inventory for the Air Force," said Staff Sgt. Joseph Romero, 18th Aircraft Maintenance Squadron avionics specialist. "We will receive all of the [v2 AESA-equipped] jets. The remaining aircraft are currently assigned to Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska. As Alaska receives the F-22's to replace the F-15C's Kadena will get the remaining [aircraft]."'
To me, that says
(1) 178 F-15s will be (or have been) upgraded. The APG-63(v)2 upgrade was part of the upgrade programme.
(2) The (v)2 F-15s at Elmendorf will all go to Kadena. F-22 will be stationed at Elmendorf in their place.
(3) There will be no more (v)2 F-15 upgrades (well, duuh!)
This does not preclude (v)3 upgrades being done to others from the 178. AFAIK, the (v)3 upgrade has not yet been funded.
F-15 Eagle
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #27
For your information the F-35 can fly at 1200mph or close to mach 2 and can pull up to 9g in a tight turn, they already done that in the F-35. They already flew at 40,000 ft well the F-35 can go higher it is a start, they already tested the stealth and the avionics have been developed or they would'nt be able to fly the F-35. I like to know were you got that information.
Scorpion82
New Member
The other way round prove that the F-35 has done it. They have developed parts of the avionics, but you have no mission critical systems onboard the current AA-1. Stealth has been tested to a limited degree but not in a complex environment. You seem not to be aware about the complexity and process of testing. There is a reason why the entire test programme is set up for 10000 flight hours. You can't expect that the aircraft has already demonstrated it within some 3 dozen or so flights. There is a difference between what is planned and what has been demonstrated so far. If all that would be that easy and the aircraft being as developed as you suggest (which is out of any reality) it would enter service next year or so, but that isn't going to happen!
Didn't the 04/2007 Code One issue say that the AA-1 they are flying is a pre-weight shave model mainly for preliminary aero studies and systems integration and other miscellaneous testing?
I would find it hard to believe that they did any kind of stress testing like pulling 9g, because the data would not seem to be very conclusive for the real model and might only endanger their schedule with other testing work that can already be done on the AA-1.
Or was there a change since April? Did they introduce another test bed?
As for the F-15, I stand corrected on the number that is planned to receive the (V)3 as well as have to say that I misread the article. With Aussie Digger's and swerve's explanation it certainly makes sense. (Although I would still claim that the article wasn't written with a very high degree of semantic precision.
: )
I would find it hard to believe that they did any kind of stress testing like pulling 9g, because the data would not seem to be very conclusive for the real model and might only endanger their schedule with other testing work that can already be done on the AA-1.
Or was there a change since April? Did they introduce another test bed?
As for the F-15, I stand corrected on the number that is planned to receive the (V)3 as well as have to say that I misread the article. With Aussie Digger's and swerve's explanation it certainly makes sense. (Although I would still claim that the article wasn't written with a very high degree of semantic precision.
: )
Last edited:
Scorpion82
New Member
You are right on that
Well, considering the fact that there are a couple of Defence Journos registered on the site, a few pilots, test engineers, service personnel and a number industry professionals - then I'm curious as to your expertise.
Perhaps you can go top the members introductory area and fill us all in on your level of professional expertise.
While you are at it, read the Forum Rules before passing any more similar comments.
Take this as an official warning.
F-15 Eagle
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #32
Whatever I am done arguing with you.
F-15 Eagle
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #33
Are you questioning my expertise? And fine I will not say comments like that again so please get off my back about my posts, no offense but you are starting to annoy me.
Admin: The fact that you've ignored directives from various Mods and have failed to heed civilised warnings means that you are annoying us - so much so that you've earnt yourself 30 days in the sin bin.
Last edited by a moderator:
F-15 Eagle
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #34
Admin: Congratulations. You've earnt yourself 30 days in the sin bin for being a troll and ignoring directives from a number of Mods
Last edited by a moderator:
Thats the thing the USAF CAN afford 500 F-22's and 500 F-35's!!!!!
They operate over 2000 F-16's, A-10's and F-15's!! The running costs and traning costs of over 2000 pilots would be FAR greater than 500 F-22's and 500 F-35's.
The only problem with this as you'll now have far fewer aircraft but they will be much better overall. If you wanted an aircraft just to make up numbers you would not use the F-15 as its very expensive to run. The F-16 should be kept just to make up the numbers.
An F-16 with supporting assets would probably have superiority against everything else.. That doesn't make the F-16 the best fighter in the world.
I am 100% certain that both sides being equal the F-35 will defeat an F-15C even if it has the V3 radar.
The F-22 can already perform most missions performed by the F-15E. The F-22 has already official replaced the F-117 "bomber".
The F-35 can perform every single mission that the F-15E can.
This is why i believe the F-15 should be put out to pasture. If money runs thin you cannot cut orders to the F-35 as the death spiral will begin. If you cut the number of aircraft you may end up getting half the aircraft and each aircraft will cost nearly twice as much. You wont save much.
It is much smarter to buy the F-35 in full quantity so they remain as cheap as possible and retire old equipment to get as much money as possible.
Cutting the F-35 order is not an option, you'd be better off ending the program completely if money was not available. Then with all the money available you could order the full 381 F-22's and keep your F-15's and F-16's with money to spare.
If the F-15C and F-15E offered a capability that could not be provided by the F-22 or F-35 then you would have an argument to keep them in service. As the F-22 and F-35 can perform every mission of the F-15 there is your solution to the funding issues.
The forecast breakdown of F-35 costs for the USA is ca 15% fixed, 85% variable. Cut USAF numbers by half & you reduce variable costs by 33%, total costs by 28%, & numbers by 36%. That works out at 12.5% increase in average cost. Even loading it all on the USAF purchase gives <25% unit cost increase.
Not quite the same as double.
I suppose you are right the original order would have to drop below a quarter of the original number of aircraft for the individual price to double.Not quite the same as double.
I still dont think the estimates would be true to real life. Atleast if its anything like the F-22 program.
If the USAF halves its order of the F-35 at the very least i would expect the price to go up 25% for the A version atleast. You would be correct in stating the price would go up only a slight amount. This is only the start.
Going up 25% has already started the death spiral. Australia for instance would have bought 100 aircraft, now the updated price is 25% more so it will buy only 80 aircraft instead. Theres another 20 less aircraft. The same will apply to every other country with a set budget. You'll then have 500 less aircraft being purchased just because of a price increase of 25%.
Now that another 500 aircraft that aren't being produced. So the price goes up again another 10%. Australia might cut back its order to 70 aircraft or it might try and find more money.. The US Navy might then decide to purchase more super Hornets cutting its F-35 order by 100 aircraft. Countries like Turkey might now decide to buy the Eurofighter.
Now another 500 aircraft aren't being produced and the chance of even 2000 aircraft being produced including international orders appears very slim. The price goes up again 15%.... then you get more cuts and the government will be under pressure to cancel the program just like the F-22.
We then end up with a small quantity of aircraft for a large price and have to result to using older aircraft to make up the numbers.
Everytime you cut 500 aircraft off the total aircraft buy the price goes up more than the previous 500 aircraft.
So in summary the USAF cant cut its orders as it will cause international customer to cut its orders due to the slight price increase.
The F-15 would be easy pickings, retire them and the F-35 can be purchased in the original quantities.