NZDF General discussion thread

Markus40

New Member
My point about the MB339 and it makes complete sense that the government needs to have a full comprehensive policy on what it wants with the Air Combat element as a whole within the RNZAF. You cant enter the existing trainers without having them used for what they were built for-Training. To do this requires pilots to undergo specialised fast jet training for their natural step into the cockpit of a Top Tier aircraft. Using them just as a trainer for pilot training and some Defence force training is only going to see our pilots find jobs overseas, because they cant find their natural step into FULL jet fighter pilot roles. It doesnt take an idiot to figure this out.

Therefore it is way more sensible to integrate the MB339 into a long term Air Combat force policy that includes an element of a top tier front line aircraft than have them fly on their own which is a complete waste of money in my opinion. The clear goal needs to be one of a greater ideology of Air Combat for this countries needs than one where, "well lets get the MB339 back in service and lets see what happens" mentality. No government is going to take reinstatements unless there is a clear policy on the future of air combat in this country. Period. So forget about the MB339 coming back, unless the government issues a clear directive to reopening the air combat debate. Cheers.





Agreed.



A co-operative effort with the RAAF would make a lot of sense. The present and planned RAAF program could be expanded to become a joint efort by the two airforces.



Totally agree. It seems to me that it would be a missed opportunity not to re-activate these aircraft whilst NZ still has a cadre of pilots with fast jet experience. It would ensure that NZ will be well placed to re enter the fast air combat business if changed circumstances require it in the future.


Cheers
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Ok before you two get into a big argument again … I’d better add in my $0.02!

Prior to the mothballing of the air combat force, all trainee pilots flew the Aermacchi after their basic wings course (well those that passed) before progressing onto the Skyhawk, or the Hercules or Orion or B727 etc. So all pilots had at least some fast jet experience (and presumably in the event of a major conflict etc, Herc pilots etc could be retrained on A4’s relatively easily).

So in my opinion, if National or Labour were to reinstate the MB339’s then that could only be a good thing, and it would certainly help justify reinstating these aircraft if all pilots, no matter where they ended up, had basic fast jet experience as part of their flying training.

Because we are not at war with anyone, nor likely to anytime soon, top of the line air combat aircraft are not a priority to either political party, unfortunately (there are no votes in there for them as already pointed out)! There have been many reviews on the air combat force over the last 20 years or so, and unfortunately, they have always been considered the last priority by the reviewers (not the RNZAF of course, nor myself personally as I believe there is a role for some type of air combat aircraft, whatever they might be), but politically one can see the problem….

The other issue we have, is that of the views of the Navy and Army as these views are important because the Govt wants to see a whole of Govt approach or whatever the phrase is. In other words, air combat forces must be important to support the Navy and Army.

Now without appearing to be bashing any one particular arm of the services (I’m not), the Navy sees value in NZ having an air combat force for their training (and if we think about it, the Navy level of capability is quite high evidenced by their continual exercising with the RAN and several Asian Navies. The Army on the other hand, don’t operate in some WWII or Vietnam type fashion whereby they need to call in airstrikes to support them, they operate with other forces in a supplementary light infanty role (and if they end up in some hotspot, air cover will more than likely already be provided by other allies anyway).

From the “Review of the lease of F-16 aircraft for the RNZAF” by Derek Quigley, as requested to do so by the incoming Labour Govt in 1999 (whatever one thinks of him, he did actually recommend the Labour Govt to renegotiate the F16 lease to maintain some 18 or so F16’s instead of 28, unfortunately Labour ignored his recommendations).


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Pages 25-31 ...Quote:

The Whineray report concluded that only the major powers had the requirement and the resources for air combat capabilities to perform all operational roles. For most countries, including New Zealand, maintaining an air combat capability to carry out selected roles was sufficient for its defence policy purposes.

It noted that the 1991 Combat Air Power Requirements Study had recommended that New Zealand maintain air combat capabilities for close air support, air interdiction, and maritime strike. It stressed that ownership of an air attack force capable in these roles was important to “train and work with the RNZN and NZ Army in joint exercises providing maritime strike and support for ground forces” and to “provide potent defence for our maritime approaches and valued contributions to collective security operations”.

Whineray considered that deciding to maintain an air combat capability for some roles, while rejecting ownership of a capability for others, had significant long-term implications for the achievement of defence policy. His study therefore tested the roles identified in 1991 and 1997 to validate their continuing policy value.

His Committee’s conclusions were:

Close Air support
A land/air capability for Close Air Support was not a role with high utility in responding to most of the security challenges that might confront New Zealand and its territorial security in the medium term. However, it had high policy and military utility in contributing to the common New Zealand-Australia strategic area. It complemented rather than duplicated the core roles selected for Australian air combat capabilities and offered a practical way of providing mutually beneficial training and exercise opportunities.

Close Air Support normally required conditions of local air superiority. Air assets performing the task did not usually require the same levels of self-defence required in roles that are carried out in more demanding threat environments. However, they needed to be able to defeat or avoid ground based air defence systems.

They also needed reliable and interoperable air-ground communications and precision guided munitions. Close Air Support had high military and policy utility in terms of New Zealand’s security relationships with Australia and others in the Asia-Pacific region.

Land/Air Operations - Air Interdiction

This had many of the same policy and military utilities that characterised Close Air Support. It would not have utility in responding to most security challenges that could confront New Zealand in the medium term. It would, however, send a strong sign to our security partners that New Zealand could make a significant and relevant commitment to a broader defence effort in the event of a serious degradation in our strategic circumstances.

As with Close Air Support, Air Interdiction had high utility in contributing to New Zealand’s security relationships with Australia. It offered a capability consistent with how New Zealanders view a contribution to regional security. New Zealand was not a country that saw itself carrying out the first attack missions of an air campaign such as strategic strike and counter-air roles. Restricting the application of force solely to targets of direct relevance to on-going military operations was more consistent with New Zealand’s national philosophy.

Air Interdiction had maximum military utility in conventional war. In lesser circumstances of conflict, its utility was restricted to the high end of peace support operations where it could be used as a punitive deterrent to protagonists, or to stop transgressors breaching UN mandates or causing casualties, as has been demonstrated in Bosnia. The ability of air interdiction to inflict proportionate and precise damage was crucial in conflict management tasks.

Unlike Close Air Support, air assets carrying out interdiction had greater tactical flexibility to avoid ground air defences. While this means that the self-defence requirements for these missions might be slightly less than for Counter-Air and Strategic Air Strike operations, it imposed speed and manoeuvrability requirements for the aircraft to keep up with accompanying escorts. The utility of Air Interdiction in contemporary and future conflicts was also increasingly dependent upon air assets that have precision guided munitions. Such weapons were significantly more cost-effective, reducing the amount of sorties needed to achieve the mission objective, while reducing collateral damage and minimising casualties.

Maritime Air Strike
Unlike some other roles examined by the study, this had some military utility in responding to the security challenges that could confront New Zealand across the conflict spectrum. The capability was a deterrent against low-level security challenges and resource protection, and would be of high utility in the event of a serious degradation in New Zealand’s security circumstances, because it would almost inevitably involve indirect or direct sea borne threats.

Along with Close Air Support and air interdiction, maritime strike had high utility in supporting the security relationship with Australia, as well as contributing to regional security. Mutual training benefits were gained from the RNZAF Skyhawk detachment at Nowra, which provides air defence training for the Royal Australian Navy.

The role had high policy and military utility for New Zealand in contributing proportionately and visibly to international peace support (particularly embargoes and sanctions enforcement) and collective security initiatives,
security challenges and resource protection.

The Five Power Defence Arrangement developed its exercising profile to include a significant maritime operations component. Furthermore, it was directly relevant to any multinational military force initiative to protect sea lines of communication. Any security circumstances where sea lines of communication were interdicted could have severe implications for New Zealand’s sea borne trade, and that of its key trading partners.

The other doctrinally recognised air combat operational roles were discarded by Whineray as inappropriate for a New Zealand air combat capability because of their limited military and policy utility for New Zealand’s defence policy goals and the strategy for achieving them.

Recent changes in the New Zealand/Australia environment

In considering the NZDF’s air combat capability, it is necessary to take account of recent changes in the Australia-New Zealand environment. Australia has shifted its overall defence policy away from continental defence to a policy of defeating threats to its maritime approaches while they are still at arm’s length. Australia is buying Hawk lead-in fighter trainers with the first in service next year. While training pilots for the F-111 and F/A-18 Hornet squadrons, the Hawks will have a number of other tasks, including fleet air support training.

Information was provided that the RAAF acknowledged New Zealand’s expertise in maritime attack and would seek to attain the same level of competence itself. The Australian army had an increasing requirement for air/land operations training with air combat capabilities as it moved away from purely continental defence. However, these and other defence issues are likely to be the subject of more detailed consideration in the current “comprehensive review of all (Australian) expenditure and investment priorities” (Dr Hawke’s speech to the Australian National Press Club on 17 February 2000).

This aside, changes are likely anyway in the range of tasks undertaken by the RNZAF for Australia. For example, fewer ship work-ups for the RAN will be required over the next three to five years as it retires its guided missile destroyers. Also, because the RAN has not proceeded with the last two ANZAC frigates, there will also be a reduction in working-up time with it, and a smaller RNZN surface combatant fleet.

However, the indications are – although this has not been tested with the Australians during this review - that most skills areas are covered by our two air combat forces. New Zealand has strengths in maritime attack, close air support and battlefield air interdiction. Australia has strengths in air superiority, offensive counter air and interdiction. The RNZAF and RAAF share doctrines with high levels of interoperability. The Skyhawks can aerial refuel from RAAF tankers using probe and drogue equipment. The F-16s are fitted with a different type of air refuelling system based on a flying boom. This is not currently available in the RAAF, although the capability may be acquired shortly for the F-111s. The F-16s can refuel from other air tankers, primarily those of the United States and Singapore.

There is another factor, less definable. It is the ability of the RNZAF through its small size, national characteristics and strengths in air combat capability (ACC), to get along well with Asian air forces.

A key question remains. How would the F-16 fit into a restructured Australia-New Zealand scenario? Early indications, for example, suggest that a new Nowra type agreement (where New Zealand makes air combat elements available to the Australian Defence Force) requires a redefining of the combined and joint activities of the two forces. These could involve an increase in close air support and battlefield air interdiction for the Australian army, although this needs further investigation.

Because of the new Hawks (and the RNZAF’s existing skill levels), the demand for maritime attack training might be reduced, possibly back to Directed Level of Capability (DLOC) levels.

Views of the Navy and Army on Air Combat Capability

The Navy

The views of the RNZN and the New Zealand Army were sought on this issue. The Navy took a wide approach and said it would look to continue to draw on support from all RNZAF force elements in the conduct of daily activities. The Orion maritime patrol force provided the closest links with the Navy, although it also had close contact with the air combat arm during maritime strike training in New Zealand and Australian waters.

The Navy said that the air combat force also provided valuable support for ship-borne sensors and weapons that could be properly tested only by fast combat jets. The Navy needed to train as it meant to fight.

Air support, ranging from Orions through Skyhawks to the new Seasprite helicopters (crewed by Navy but maintenance, training and land basing provided by the RNZAF) enabled the Navy to train and sustain naval force elements to DLOC levels.

This training provided better preparation for naval and air teams to integrate with allies in combined exercises or operations, including peacekeeping. Such support was also necessary when ships of coalition forces visited New Zealand. Without the full gambit of a challenging exercise environment – covering all aspects of maritime warfare – ships from other navies would be less likely to participate in New Zealand-hosted exercises.

The Navy made the point that when it deployed ships, they had to be prepared for any eventuality. Naval operations tended to be diverse. When the frigate Canterbury was sent to East Timor, its primary tasks had changed from shore support and emergency withdrawal, to maritime presence and surveillance, and to supporting amphibious landings. Each role demanded specific capabilities but the ship was able to change without reconfiguring or changing personnel. On top of these tasks, the ship also provided early warning of any threat that might develop.

The Navy also said that essential to air support was the relative ease and speed with which assets can be re-tasked or reconfigured for specific missions. A range of aircraft provided a naval commander with reach and the ability to undertake a task at significantly greater distances that was possible by the ship’s own sensors. This layered defence approach was essential to the RNZN which carried only self-protection weapons systems, although the combination of the new Seasprite helicopter and Maverick missile would provide greatly increased over-the-horizon capability from next year.

For surface and anti-surface operations, land based air assets played an important role by extending the detection, identification and targeting potential of surface forces. Given New Zealand’s reliance on maritime trade, the protection of this would continue to be a major role of the RNZN and the RNZAF’s air assets.

The review was told that Naval forces, both doctrinally and practically, were significantly more effective when supported by air assets. The combined use of these enhanced the capability of the force. Increasingly there was a focus on operations in littoral waters. In this environment, ships were particularly vulnerable to air and missile attack, hence air support was invaluable.

The Navy made it clear, however, that for conventional security situations, its ships would normally be deployed as part of a larger force (e.g. the Gulf and East Timor) with access to layers of defence and support. It saw the provision of air support in these circumstances as being provided by the coalition force. The Navy added that if New Zealand were to operate independently, it was important to have the assets to do so, as we could not always rely on our allies to provide them.


The Army

In contrast, the Army focused on the two roles of air interdiction and close air support. Its views were based upon the present and future land operational concept that an air combat capability will be required to support, and in particular, on how land forces manoeuvre.

Both roles, the Army said, were theatre tasks, and needed to be controlled at theatre commander level. Close air support had a lower priority for theatre commanders who might have a different appreciation of the value of a target than the tactical commander. The targets therefore tended to be accorded a lower value status – against which had to be set the high risk to aircraft from ground-based air defence systems.

According to the Army, fixed wing aircraft were a scarce and expensive resource with barely sufficient to go around. Close air support by fast jets was becoming, over the years, less responsive to land force needs. However, rotary winged air support (attack helicopters) increasingly provided the tactical commander with close air support.

New concepts of warfare, known as precision manoeuvre, involve units operating on a cycle of dispersion, concentration, and further dispersion. This required knowledge dominance and precision engagement. The Army’s view was that air combat capability could contribute in only two areas in support of the quest for knowledge dominance: armed reconnaissance and tactical air reconnaissance.

Fixed wing aircraft were said to be only one of six different platforms available to an army commander (the others being satellites, helicopters, vehicle-carried sensors, unmanned aerial vehicles and foot patrolling).

Precision engagement required high accuracy, and the Army considered that land based systems were better in this respect than close air support. Army commanders tended to place greater reliance on helicopters, long range artillery (rockets), field artillery and mortars.

In fact, the Army concluded that the primary implication of withdrawal of ACC would be in training forward air controllers and in practising close air support co-ordination. Both – the review was told – would need to be practised offshore if the air combat force were disbanded. Close air support co-ordination was routinely practised whenever an RNZAF aircraft flew in support of an Army exercise, but this did not happen often. Without a discrete NZDF air combat capability, training in-theatre or on the way to a deployment would be required to meet Operational Level of Capability (OLOC) standards.

The Army considered that the New Zealand air combat force would never be a discrete force and would, therefore, be deployed at the direction of the theatre commander. If New Zealand lacked an air combat force, this did not mean that the Army would not have access to this capability.

After the Navy and Army briefings, a senior officer expressed the view that some of the opinions conveyed to the review on air combat capability may have been a reflection of a gradual decline in the NZDF’s focus on joint operations as each service had concentrated on attempting to solve its own capability problems. He said that the present Chief of Defence Force had changed this and reasserted the need for a joint approach.

Both of these judgements are accepted.

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(End of quote)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
A co-operative effort with the RAAF would make a lot of sense. The present and planned RAAF program could be expanded to become a joint efort by the two airforces.
Not quite sure how this would work, or how well. I believe that the RAAF has a total of 33 Hawk 127 LIF in inventory and it is my understanding that these aircraft and the two training squadrons that operate them for the RAAF are "at capacity" in terms of training. In order to accomodate training RNZAF pilots for fast jet roles, the RAAF would need to expand the fast jet training element to increase capacity. As part of such an expansion, additional examples of fast jet trainers (like the Hawk 127 or MB-339...) would need to be added. Given a new need for additional trainers, the RAAF would likely prefer to use only one model jet trainer, which would mean reopening the Hawk 127 line. The question would then become, how much would it cost to expand, and how great is the need to do so.

As for as other areas for joint training, I believe that is already done. From what I remember reading, RNZAF pilots are sent to the RAAF Navigation school as part of either the flight training or perhaps multi-engine training.

-Cheers
 

Jezza

Member
At the end of the day having mb339s are betting than nothing at all.
Blunt or delay any attack on NZ by MB339s and other sea and air
assests until the RAN and RAAF could back them up.:)
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Not quite sure how this would work, or how well. I believe that the RAAF has a total of 33 Hawk 127 LIF in inventory and it is my understanding that these aircraft and the two training squadrons that operate them for the RAAF are "at capacity" in terms of training. In order to accomodate training RNZAF pilots for fast jet roles, the RAAF would need to expand the fast jet training element to increase capacity. As part of such an expansion, additional examples of fast jet trainers (like the Hawk 127 or MB-339...) would need to be added. Given a new need for additional trainers, the RAAF would likely prefer to use only one model jet trainer, which would mean reopening the Hawk 127 line. The question would then become, how much would it cost to expand, and how great is the need to do so.

As for as other areas for joint training, I believe that is already done. From what I remember reading, RNZAF pilots are sent to the RAAF Navigation school as part of either the flight training or perhaps multi-engine training.

-Cheers

We are referring here to a situation that would only arise if NZ re-established its air combat force. If so it would need to include money for lead in training and it seems to me that this could include forming a third LIF squadron within the RAAF (or RNZAF) that would fit into a joint RAAF/RNZAF training scheme (including the planned RAAF PC-9/CT-4 replacements). The RAAF will probably be looking to update the Hawk 127s to equip them for introducing pilots to the F-35s. At present I believe that the Hawks have cockpit layouts simuilar to the FA-18s. The acquisition of an additional batch of Hawks could be jointly funded. IMO, what would be ideal in a co-operative effort would be for the new RNZAF fighter to be the same as the RAAF's, either the F-35A or the FA-18E/F.

I accept that this is a highly unlikely scenario but should NZ go down the air combat path again I think that working closely with Australia re the choice of hardware, logistical support and training, would be an approach worth investigating. It is certainly not the only approach but to me it would have a lot going for it.

First, however, the NZ government would have to decide on a major policy switch in this area.

In the meantime I agree with those who are saying that:

1. The MB-339s are better than nothing, and
2. NZ ought to maintain a cadre of fast jet pilots.

Cheers
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The discussion of a return to an Air Combat Capability for New Zealand must consider the likely economic and strategic environment within the EEZ and throughout the wider region in the next decade and beyond. Oil and China are two of the many factors I would like to propose that would indicate a potential reason for an ACF requirement.

Both are factors in a number of economic and geo-political questions that as yet are still unresolved within New Zealand and prudent analysts wont have a clearer projection until post 2010. Most international pundits agree that the full intentions of China in terms of its Pacific policy will not be fully revealed or understood until after Beijing 2008 Olympic's have been and gone. Until then it is a matter of watching the trends and making considered speculation regarding the size, reach, capability and intentions of the PLA's Navy. If China were to expand its sea power capability into a having a Carrier Strike Group capability by the middle of next decade, as speculated, that would change the complexion of both New Zealand's and Australia's interests. Australia is taking that into some consideration concerning its defence posture already. New Zealand as yet is still politically stiffled in that regard.

The other issue is the outcome of the offshore oil exploration in the Great Southern Basin and the Northland Basin. If productive oil reserves are of a significant nature are discovered, then New Zealand might find it would be more plausible and indeed more pragmatic to return to an ACF capability. That fact that Exxon Mobil are now a lead entity in the exploration programme gives some idea of the potential of these fields. This point should not be underestimated and I don't think many New Zealanders or those of other nationalities realise this. The message here is clear. IF the oil exploration hits the jackpot next decade the economic potential is staggering for a population of 4 million. This obviously leads to security concerns that would have to be addressed.

At the moment though I cannot see the need for New Zealand to rush into a decision regarding an ACF capability and such a decision would be politically risky and counter-productive for the National Party to entertain the idea prior to the 2008 Election. Also the "political narrative" in terms of the current governments defence posture will take time to change in the minds of the voters. National knows this and is taking a softly softly approach after all it needs 47.5% of the vote under MMP to rule unhindered. To a degree the New Zealand publics recognition of the importance of defence matters are already starting to change, but is far from achieving a critical mass. Unfortunately a sizable section of voters, mainly female are yet to understand the role a well equiped defence force plays in securing and promoting the nations economic interests.

I'm not of the view that New Zealand doesn't have the potential to return to an ACF component of its Defence Force. In the meantime I would support a return of the MB339C aircraft for training duties. We are stuck with them I'm afraid. The current government knows that their sale is not going to happen. The reasons are way beyond their control and are frankly embarrassing for them and are indictive of the lax decision-making and expediancy they took six years ago. These aircraft were purchased for NZ$262 million in the early 1990's and have years of life ahead of them and are not going anywhere. From what I understand is that the MB339 costs around $3000 per hour to operate. A couple of thousand flight hours per annum would not break the defence budget even with the neccessity for a required radar upgrade to work with the ANZAC's. New Zealand would also keep its hand in the Air Combat business for a time until the requirement and necessity for frontline combat aircraft eventuated.

Its not the perfect answer, but as a form of risk management economically and operationally it plainly sensible. As for the issues regarding China's intentions and the oil potential of the Great Southern Basin I mentioned above... I am swayed somewhat on the writings of Dr Robyn Lim of Nanzan University in regards to China and in terms of NZ Oil potential my hot tip is buy land in Invercargill and sit on it. By the way I'll be talking to Mr Mapp this weekend and will squeeze out of him some more discussion. If it is interesting I will pass it on.
 

Markus40

New Member
Recce.k1 has fielded a good piece of policy statement of the views of the 3 armed services in the air combat role based on the needs each service requires.

Firstly the MB339s training pilots for other parts of the RNZAF such as the 727 , C130, and P3 was a good introduction to pilot training in general, however wasnt and isnt today part of the training requirement for entry into other parts of RNZAF service as stated. Therefore it is totally unnecessary to bring them out of the hanger when there is already programmes in place for pilot training with other aircraft within the RNZAF service doing the same job. If not better.

What really doesnt make sense is the money thats being spent to hold them in storage until we find a buyer. Obviously the current government never anticipated that it would come across "difficulties" in being able to get rid of them. The sentiments that seem to be floating around is "they are better than nothing" mentality, and i am finding difficulty in this suggestion on the basis of "lets just get them out of the hanger and get them into the air". The reason for this is because as i have been saying blue in the face, there is never going to be a policy change on the MB339s UNTIL the current govenment makes moves on air combat policy that is long term and has a change in the role for the RNZAF that includes Maritime Strike, Interdiction, and support roles for our armed services. I do seriously think that working alongside the Australians in the setting up phase of a Top Tier aircraft such as the F16 or F18, BAE Hawke for the RNZAF while our pilots undergo MB339 training is a very sensible and well augmented possibility into the long term support role for the RNZAF. But the government is simply not going to be hauling the MB339 out of the hanger without making some very serious policy changes, and as i have mentioned before no government in their right mind is going to cash out cheques with out thinking about the Pilot role from training to the front line fighter role, as the trainers are designed to do.

If the current government put up its hand and said to the Australian government, yes we would like to reinstate our air combat wing that the RAAF would be more than willing to help and support this endeavour. As long as they were secure in the knowledge that NZ was going to pay its way through to establish the air combat force. I believe the closer we are to the Australians on this issue the better the outcome in instituting a proper and well set up fighter mechanism that would have positive outcomes and a future that the RNZAF would be proud of.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Just to show the NZDF is not completely with its head in the sand when it comes to this:

From ARMY NEWS 378

"Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) are the focus of the newly formed Intelligence Surveillance Targeting and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) Battlelab in 16 Field Regiment".

http://www.army.mil.nz/at-a-glance/news/army-news/378/naib.htm

Also Exercise Wolf, Prts 1, 2 have some interesting news re 5 & 3 SQN working in with the NZ Army. Seems the "electro optic" upgrade on the P3-K is proving useful

"A P3 Orion from 5 Sqn provided not only detailed information on the target but an excellent C2 platform"

http://www.army.mil.nz/at-a-glance/news/army-news/377/ew.htm

Exercise Wolf: ARMY NEWS 377 / 378

http://www.army.mil.nz/at-a-glance/news/army-news/default.htm

Third part of Exercise Wolf to take place later this year, will involve HMNZ Canterbury

Looks like the "number eight fencing wire" approach aint dead yet :)

NOTE: not sure it really belongs here .. BUT couldn't seem to find a dedicated NZ Army thread :)
Very interesting! Also this next part ties in with the Army News article you’ve mentioned and is taken from “Cutting their cloth: NZ’s defence strategy” by Jim Rolfe (ASPI 2007) – from http://www.aspi.org.au/ (well worth a read at only $20).

“New Zealand's P-3 Orion maritime patrol aircraft have been structurally upgraded and are now to have their mission management, communications, navigation and surveillance systems modernised to fit them for a role focused on surface rather than subsurface surveillance. Until that upgrade is complete, the Orions will be able to maintain DLOC for lower-end military capabilities only. By the end of the project in 2010, the aircraft will be as capable as any in the world for its surface surveillance role, to the extent that there's discussion of completing the refocusing to describe the force as an 'Airborne Surveillance and Reconnaissance Force' to reflect its potential roles. In the future, the aircraft could have command and control or airborne early warning duties, or it could have an enhanced attack capability-all depending on developments in technology and governmental will”.

(Article then goes on about ASW sensors being obsolete but that’s not news to anyone here)!

And as you and probably everyone else knows, allied P3’s and Nimrod’s have been operating over land in Afghanistan and Iraq too I think, tracking targets and gun fire etc. For NZ though, a fundamental shift is starting to occur then with RNZAF P3’s starting to support the Army, and presumably they will also end up supporting the Army in regional hotspots if another Timor 99 type situation arises. The other important thing here for the RNZAF, Army and RNZN (and our allies) is that the P3 can accommodate any task on behalf of these services without any major changes in procedures, personal, training and equipment etc (all of which bodes in well with ensuring these aircraft are upgraded and then eventually replaced with “capable” aircraft in the future. Note: not “less capable” thanks you politicians)!

Wonder what the future holds with arming these aircraft with LGB’s or ASM’s etc for supporting land ops? Currently the P3’s main weapon is the Mk82 drag bomb which are dropped visually over the target (talk about WWII revisited). We certainly don’t want expensive P3’s nor their important air crew being put at risk by having to over fly a potential target, should some occasion requires this.

Also looks like a fundamental change is also happening with the Army, the long overdue rebuilding and re-equipping of which has been the Govt’s main defence priority since 1999 etc. In the NZDF Strategic Plan 2007 - 2011 http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/public-documents/default.htm, the table on page 7 briefly mentions that the “optimal configuration of the army” is being reviewed at the moment and from 2008-2010 the “future army structure” will presumably either be decided or put into place etc. I’ve heard elsewhere in the past that the Army structure is being reviewed but don’t know of the details – anyone able to shed some light?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Recce.k1 has fielded a good piece of policy statement of the views of the 3 armed services in the air combat role based on the needs each service requires.

Firstly the MB339s training pilots for other parts of the RNZAF such as the 727 , C130, and P3 was a good introduction to pilot training in general, however wasnt and isnt today part of the training requirement for entry into other parts of RNZAF service as stated. Therefore it is totally unnecessary to bring them out of the hanger when there is already programmes in place for pilot training with other aircraft within the RNZAF service doing the same job. If not better.
I try hard not to be one putting words into the mouthes of others, but I think the point Recce.k1 was making was not that including fast jet training was essential for a pilot. I think rather, that he was suggesting having all the RNZAF pilots receive some fast jet training, it broadened their err... horizons, and would increase the potential numbers of pilots available for further training as fighter/combat pilots. Such a point as this, I find hard to argue against.

The sentiments that seem to be floating around is "they are better than nothing" mentality, and i am finding difficulty in this suggestion on the basis of "lets just get them out of the hanger and get them into the air".
I agree 100% about the mentality of the MB-339 idea being "they are better than nothing". What seems to be overlooked however, is that at present, the RNZAF has nothing in service in terms of Air Combat or Fast Jet capabilities. And given the current situation, that fact doesn't appear likely to change in the near future. For those who do see a potential need for such capabilities in the NZDF, regardless of whether an Air Combat element is to be re-constituted in the future, the MB-339's present an option. Since NZ already owns them and is spending money to store them for "sale to a potential buyer" as well as having the aircraft undego periodic flights to ensure they remain flightworhthy, and since other elements of the NZDF need periodic exposure operating with or against fast jets for training, it seems more reasonable to just have the MB-339 re-enter service.

The four questions I would really ask in terms of reasons not to do so are as follows.

1. Is a sale of the aircraft immediately around the corner?
Given that the aircraft having been "for sale" some six years now, I don't see this changing in the near future.

2. Is there a dramatic (negative) difference in terms of personnel requirements, service and budgetary requirements for having operational MB-339 vs. stored MB-339?

3. Is there an imminent plan to completely re-launch an Air Combat element program, complete with a different fast jet trainer and/or training regimen, and can this be done faster and/or more economically than including the MB-339 in some form or another?
This is another area where I don't see any sort of immediate change

4. Is the defence situation of NZ such that there is no advantage in having any form of attack or interception capability, either for training purposes or in event of emergencies/combat, now or in the future?


The reason for this is because as i have been saying blue in the face, there is never going to be a policy change on the MB339s UNTIL the current govenment makes moves on air combat policy that is long term and has a change in the role for the RNZAF that includes Maritime Strike, Interdiction, and support roles for our armed services. I do seriously think that working alongside the Australians in the setting up phase of a Top Tier aircraft such as the F16 or F18, BAE Hawke for the RNZAF while our pilots undergo MB339 training is a very sensible and well augmented possibility into the long term support role for the RNZAF. But the government is simply not going to be hauling the MB339 out of the hanger without making some very serious policy changes, and as i have mentioned before no government in their right mind is going to cash out cheques with out thinking about the Pilot role from training to the front line fighter role, as the trainers are designed to do.

If the current government put up its hand and said to the Australian government, yes we would like to reinstate our air combat wing that the RAAF would be more than willing to help and support this endeavour. As long as they were secure in the knowledge that NZ was going to pay its way through to establish the air combat force. I believe the closer we are to the Australians on this issue the better the outcome in instituting a proper and well set up fighter mechanism that would have positive outcomes and a future that the RNZAF would be proud of.
While I would like to see the NZDF have some form of air combat capability again, I am of the opinion that it is several years away from being started at the earliest. I am also of the opinion that, given what NZ already possesses, the MB-339 could re-enter useful service in the RNZAF and potentially lead to reformation of the Air Combat element, for not significantly (relative to capability) more than has been/is being spent to keep them in saleable condition. I see this as a more likely and viable option (both economically and politically) for the NZDF.

-Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Recce.k1 has fielded a good piece of policy statement of the views of the 3 armed services in the air combat role based on the needs each service requires.

Firstly the MB339s training pilots for other parts of the RNZAF such as the 727 , C130, and P3 was a good introduction to pilot training in general, however wasnt and isnt today part of the training requirement for entry into other parts of RNZAF service as stated. Therefore it is totally unnecessary to bring them out of the hanger when there is already programmes in place for pilot training with other aircraft within the RNZAF service doing the same job. If not better.

What really doesnt make sense is the money thats being spent to hold them in storage until we find a buyer. Obviously the current government never anticipated that it would come across "difficulties" in being able to get rid of them. The sentiments that seem to be floating around is "they are better than nothing" mentality, and i am finding difficulty in this suggestion on the basis of "lets just get them out of the hanger and get them into the air". The reason for this is because as i have been saying blue in the face, there is never going to be a policy change on the MB339s UNTIL the current govenment makes moves on air combat policy that is long term and has a change in the role for the RNZAF that includes Maritime Strike, Interdiction, and support roles for our armed services. I do seriously think that working alongside the Australians in the setting up phase of a Top Tier aircraft such as the F16 or F18, BAE Hawke for the RNZAF while our pilots undergo MB339 training is a very sensible and well augmented possibility into the long term support role for the RNZAF. But the government is simply not going to be hauling the MB339 out of the hanger without making some very serious policy changes, and as i have mentioned before no government in their right mind is going to cash out cheques with out thinking about the Pilot role from training to the front line fighter role, as the trainers are designed to do.

If the current government put up its hand and said to the Australian government, yes we would like to reinstate our air combat wing that the RAAF would be more than willing to help and support this endeavour. As long as they were secure in the knowledge that NZ was going to pay its way through to establish the air combat force. I believe the closer we are to the Australians on this issue the better the outcome in instituting a proper and well set up fighter mechanism that would have positive outcomes and a future that the RNZAF would be proud of.
I'm afraid I agree with Todjaeger on this one.

Firstly, I don't consider NZ regaining an air combat capability is a possibility in the near OR distant future. It would take a MASSIVE change to NZ policy supported by massive investment in infrastructure and actual aircraft acquisition (along with support structures etc) and a subsequent increase in NZDF budget that I simply don't see happening.

Your LTDP goes out to what? 2017 - 2020? No sign of a change there. No sign of a change in policy on the top tier air combat capability from the National Party either. Is there some other political party I am unaware of in NZ that hass a possibility of forming a majority Government and is considering bringing back the air combat capability?

If so please correct me.

The ONLY sign of change is the possibility that a National Party Government MIGHT be inclined to re-introduce a fast jet trainer capability.

Again the idea of storing a fleet of jets that you can't sell, yet maintain them in an airworthy condition smacks highly of "cutting off your nose to spite your face" and I suspect this is what the National Party member was referring to.

You've stated repeatedly that you can't see NZ politicians being inclined to re-instate an air combat trainer without an air combat group.

Well I refer you back to MR MAPP's apparent comments that started this whole discussion:
Air Combat force - sorry guys, this is definitely off the agenda! :(

Jet trainers (Aermacchi) - he's keen to investigate this
, although it seems more as a point of difference to Labour than for it's actual value. Would be stirctly in a training role as cost must be kept down. BUT get this - he states that the Minister of Defence (Phil Goff) has actually stated to him that if the RNZAF came asking him if they could use them NOW for training, he wouldn't have a probelm with them doing so!!! So suggests it's as much a dysfunctional RNZAF/NZDF as anything that's grounded them! To be fair they've been gutted by the Govt so maybe I'm being a bit harsh!


If these comments are to be believed then there are at least 2 politicians who forsee the Aermacchi's being used again in a training role and one is the current defence minister and the other is the shadow defence minister...

In addition to which the presence of a fast jet trainer would have the benefit of possessing SOME means to control NZ airspace , even if only against relatively slow civilian aircraft, some recon capability in benign airspace and some ground attack capability.

As to the idea of pilots leaving to pursue a fast jet career elsewhere, can no other option be thought of for retention of pilots? Afterall, as I recall you were full of praise and ideas for Australia's recruiting and retention policies and issues a while back...

Also, might not the presence of SOME fast jet flying lead to an increase in prospective pilots FOR the RNZAF?
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I should have said this earlier, good work Gibbo! Maybe some follow up meetings with Dr Mapp in the future and maybe even with Mr Goff for his perspective might be useful if you have the time.

Just some thoughts in general about what you’ve raised.

Army:
I understand that as a result of the Govt’s recent defence capability reviews the Army, overall, is to gain an additional 700 staff over the next several years. I also understand the Army’s two regular force battalions comprise of four rifle companies. And in the Govt’s LTDP a high readiness infantry company is noted in there but way down the priority order at this point.

I personally would support the raising of a third battalion as it is quite clear that the Army was stretched when it deployed a battalion in East Timor from 1999-2002 and even now with the recent company deployments to various regional trouble spots in recent years. It must be hard for the Army to train for war-fighting/peace enforcement etc if the units are continually being called upon to fight fires around the region. However I do hope that National’s intention is to continue to build up current Army numbers and if and when a third battalion is raised in the future, that all three battalions, support and logistics etc are at full strength (i.e. not done on the cheap).

I wonder whether “light patrol force” means a dedicated small force to be deployed at short notice to trouble spots but may remain deployed for up to a few months? In order to take pressure of the regular force battalions? Or maybe the LPF’s are deployed after the regular battalions or companies secure the trouble spots and the LPF’s simply maintain a lightly armed presence (and patrolling) thus freeing up the regular battalion/infanty companies to return to base and carry on their training and preparations as per normal etc? If so, this seems like a good idea, especially again, assuming the regular forces are not trimmed down etc. Also, would these LPF’s be part of the regular battalions or an entity on their own, if so what would they comprise, one or two or a number of companies etc? Or would National have ideas in mind for the current structure of the Batt’s to accommodate a LPF?

At present only 1 Battalion is motorised with LAVIII’s and 2/1 Battalion is only partially (although mostly) motorised. As National were ardent critics of Labour purchasing 105 vehicles (as National’s preference in the 1990’was for less new wheeled vehicles but with upgraded M113’s), would National purchase another 10 or so LAVIII’s to fully motorise 2/1 Batt? Or leave 2/1 as a light infantry force?

Navy:
A third frigate would be useful if National wishes to contribute to more ongoing multi-national commitments and deployments etc. The two frigates appear stretched to me, they are deployed around the region and globally a number of times per year. Or has been suggested by some, a couple of cheaper highly armed blue water corvettes for local and regional presence (and backup to the ANZAC’s) with the two ANZAC’s mainly used for global deployments. If the answer is Frigate I’m sure a good second hand one could be picked up from the RAN or RN since they are downsizing.
Although manning has been an issue and it wasn’t helped by the Govt refusing suggestions by the Navy to lease a ship when the Frigate Canterbury retired in 2005, but instead to make do with redeploying the RNZNVR’s IPC fleet (I read at the time that a number of recruits and ratings left the Navy because of the lack of opportunity to go to sea), surely this is being addressed by the $4.7B 10-year defence sustainability initiative to recruit more servicemen and women across the three services. And as the Protector fleet comes into service there will be more opportunities to go to sea and to more exotic locations. I don’t see how manning could be used as an excuse to curtail a third Frigate, especially as it has been pointed out that the ANZAC’s require less crew then when we had four 250 man Leander’s in service.
The ANZAC’s are not due to be retired until the mid to late 2020’s hence Labour’s planned weapons and sensor upgrades from 2010 to keep them in line with the RAN ANZAC’s has to be a given. As others have pointed out, ANZAC replacements should happen a lot later and in partnership with the Australians.

OPV’s – these vessels should be upgraded with a higher calibre gun, retain the bushmaster canon (perhaps two on either side of the superstructure somewhere pointing port and starboard to ward of FIAC’s or for general patrolling. A third facing rear but with a limited degree of fire would be useful but maybe not practical, but if so, in essence you would have 360 degress of coverage).

The OPV’s primary aim is and still should be EEZ patrolling and counter terrorism/piracy etc. The Navy wanted 3-4 OPV’s in their Maritime Patrol Review submission. They boats can’t have cost more than $100-140M a piece, give the RNZN another two or so, and the NZ Govt would be able to maintain a useful, near continuous presence around the Southern Ocean, and the South Pacific etc, useful for flying the flag and keeping an eye on those fishing boats (or any potential Chinese spy ships etc)!

However by up-arming the OPV’s, they would have a secondary escort and patrolling funtion if another East Timor invention occurs eg the ANZAC’s go in to the potential “war zone”, once that is secured or hostilities reduce sufficiently, the ANZAC’s may be released to more pressing duties elsewhere and the up-armed OPV’s go in and patrol/escort any merchant re-supply ships etc (and what’s to say that the Timor Leste situation won’t deteriorate further in the future due to unrest, the exploitation of oil and gas reserves and any future change of Govt in Indonesia? Or West Papua etc)?

LCS – great if we could afford to setup a small base in the South Pacific somewhere (Fuji/Samoa etc) and base them there but also afford to keep the ANZAC’s on for true blue water and southern ocean functions, but I doubt we could afford a navy as large as that with the logistics overheads etc (although recruiting certainly wouldn’t be a problem, who wouldn’t want to be based out in the pacific for a while)?

Air Force:
Yes MB339’s for all pilot training, Naval and Army exercise training (as a good first step to future explorations of an air combat training or force with the RAAF or if NZ’s strategic situation permits in the future, it’s own proper ACF etc).

Air Transports are essential. Be that more ex-RAAF C130H’s – 5 RNZAF C130H’s ain’t enough) until they can be replaced with the A400 around 2020 (unless National thinks it should be sooner than that). I’m still an advocate for a couple of C17’s and I read a few weeks back in the Dom Post that the Head of Antarctica NZ Programme, saying that NZ isn’t pulling its weight with the US in Antarctica in that they have upgraded their capacity enormously with the C17 whereas NZ still has to rely on the C130’s limited carrying capacity etc. The RNZAF has considered using the B757 for the Antarctica support programme but have decided not to (probably not practical) hence there appears to be a civilian group that would support the C17 as well as the air force and army to carry it’s LAV’s and containers etc. Hell we could even buy one aircraft and come to an arrangement with the Australians to augment their C17’s and perhaps they give us backup when our one is down for servicing!

Other’s suggestions to look into C27’s etc are also good and it was a pity we got rid of the Andover’s with no obvious replacement. If so, tie this into the RAAF Caribou replacement project and we may get some discount or the aircraft in a timely manner etc.

More LUH’s are a good idea (did I read the NH90’s operating costs are around $8000/hr compared to around $1000-2000 for the UH1?). One or two more Seasprites would also be useful seeing as the RNZN is taking on three new helicopter capable vessels. If practical I would like to see them fitted with ASW sonars (there don’t have any) and this is a capability liability. Otherwise work in with the RAN when they decide upon their next generation of helicopter for their AWD’s and get some for the RNZN ANZAC’s (and transfer the Seasprites to the OPV’s and MRV, seeing as these helicopters and ships are designed for sea surface patrol, not ASW operations).
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Phew! Been flatout so haven't had a chance to jump back into the discussion for a few days! Lot's of good keen suggestions - knew this would spark some good debate. Anyway, enough babble...

Yes unfortunately an hour wasn't long enough but my original post summed up the discussion. Regards the ACF - he made it quite clear National will NOT be making any move to re-establish - "it's gone" were his very words!

However he is very keen for a number of the Macchis to be re-instated for training - but training only (Army & Navy training support). Cost was an issue though - so it would be a reduced fleet with possibly half the fleet as attrition airframes - but that's fine by me.

I pointed out the additional benefit in 'pilot quality' thru having jet training as part of every trainee pilots wings course, plus the option of being a quick-response platform to 'check-out' any commercial vessel (or aircraft) in our EEZ that needs to be stopped or have a few warning shots across it's bow for whatever reason. Can even give the C-130 & P-3K pilots some training in dealing with 'hostile' airspace!

Anyway the throw-away comment I did pick-up on was that he was looking for ways to differentiate National policy from Labours - and he saw this as a key one. Seemed like a 'political' manouvre rather than any real apprecaition of operational needs - perhaps!?! I would however expect it to therefore get some serious consideration.

Wayne Mapp also stated that Phil Goff has a much more 'realistic' understanding of defence needs - which is reflected in his comment about current Macchi use being a possibility. Mind you - Goff's view may not have been a common Labour party 'view'. Remember it wasn't under Goff that the ACF was chopped.

Regards the Navy - not convinced Mapp has done any serious research on the LCS so wouldn't read too much into that, but you can read a fair bit into the fact that he obviously is concerned about the cost of upgrades vs the option of going for a new platform with greater flexibility (perhaps at the expense of combat capability!?!)

National will be compiling a white-paper, not sure when but I gather in order to define their policy for election 08. As he stated these are actually internal documents so once you see it, you can be fairly certain that's what their position will be. Committing to action is of course another matter.

He's adamant additional T'LUH are required so expect to see this. I asked about the option of arming them & he did mention that he would see them as 'operational' aircraft so should have the option - but he couldn't be drawn on the scale of armament.
 

Markus40

New Member
I think personally your last paragraph sums up pretty well and comes close to my recommendation on the MB339 fleet. Most comments put together so far are plausible theoritically, and hold a certain amount of merit and i dont deny that to be honest, however for me to get my head around the prospect of a "resurrection" of our MB339 requires alot more than just using them to upgrade pilots training ability, as well as the prospect of putting pilots through a time consuming training schedule that would require alot of time and money to bring them to the point of having a cadre of pilots who solely are trained to fly the MB339. I cant for the life of me come to terms of the issue of pilot retention once pilots are trained to a certain level and then move on to bigger roles with bigger pay in the RAAF, RAF and USAF. The reason i say this is that it is perfectly clear in my mind that if there is not a natural step through into a front combat role with a faster and more capable aircraft then pilots will defect and move on to other roles in other countries. Its as simple as that. Im not looking at this argument as a short term plausible option for the RNZAF but i am looking outside the square if i could say so at the long term aspects and policy making of this possible scenerio.

I say these things not because i simply disagree but due to knowing 2 ex A4 pilots and what they have shared with me on the same argument gives me credibility on this point.

I strongly disagree on the point that due to Goffs recent statement to Dr Mapp that he would reconsider the reappointment of the MB339s if asked by the RNZAF is SUGGESTING a matter of dysfunction in the RNZAF/NZDF. Far from it. I actually think that was a "tongue in cheek" comment and revealed to some level of what Goffs personel feelings are in regards to this matter. I dont think it was a serious political comment and in some ways let light on some of Goffs personal feelings. Its quite obvious from out of it that its not up to the NZDFs to go begging for their planes back when its government itself that makes policy on defence issues. So in some ways its also a little immature. He may too feel somewhat uncomfortable with the manner his government dealt with Air Combat wings at the time of disbandenment.

The RNZAF fighter training and A4 pilots were some of the best close knit guys within the RNZAF. There ability and flying experience was top notch. Most of those based at Nowra with the N0 2 Squadron would agree that there loss was significant as they had a major contributing factor to the training of the RAN. It is also a well known fact for those within the circles of the fighter pilot world who were posted on regular exercises with countries such as Singapore knew how good our pilots were even though they flew aircraft that were decades older than the F16. So suggesting that there was dysfunction at any level is talking pure stupidity.

As far as Recce.K1 comments are concerned at the bottom line regardless of interpretation making any justification on the basis of moving our MB339s out just for the upgrading the 757, C130 and P3s pilot skills is really a nonsense with out a proper long term fast jet pilot scheme with government approval that institutes a major change in our Air Combat policy. Period.

Cheers.



I try hard not to be one putting words into the mouthes of others, but I think the point Recce.k1 was making was not that including fast jet training was essential for a pilot. I think rather, that he was suggesting having all the RNZAF pilots receive some fast jet training, it broadened their err... horizons, and would increase the potential numbers of pilots available for further training as fighter/combat pilots. Such a point as this, I find hard to argue against.



I agree 100% about the mentality of the MB-339 idea being "they are better than nothing". What seems to be overlooked however, is that at present, the RNZAF has nothing in service in terms of Air Combat or Fast Jet capabilities. And given the current situation, that fact doesn't appear likely to change in the near future. For those who do see a potential need for such capabilities in the NZDF, regardless of whether an Air Combat element is to be re-constituted in the future, the MB-339's present an option. Since NZ already owns them and is spending money to store them for "sale to a potential buyer" as well as having the aircraft undego periodic flights to ensure they remain flightworhthy, and since other elements of the NZDF need periodic exposure operating with or against fast jets for training, it seems more reasonable to just have the MB-339 re-enter service.

The four questions I would really ask in terms of reasons not to do so are as follows.

1. Is a sale of the aircraft immediately around the corner?
Given that the aircraft having been "for sale" some six years now, I don't see this changing in the near future.

2. Is there a dramatic (negative) difference in terms of personnel requirements, service and budgetary requirements for having operational MB-339 vs. stored MB-339?

3. Is there an imminent plan to completely re-launch an Air Combat element program, complete with a different fast jet trainer and/or training regimen, and can this be done faster and/or more economically than including the MB-339 in some form or another?
This is another area where I don't see any sort of immediate change

4. Is the defence situation of NZ such that there is no advantage in having any form of attack or interception capability, either for training purposes or in event of emergencies/combat, now or in the future?




While I would like to see the NZDF have some form of air combat capability again, I am of the opinion that it is several years away from being started at the earliest. I am also of the opinion that, given what NZ already possesses, the MB-339 could re-enter useful service in the RNZAF and potentially lead to reformation of the Air Combat element, for not significantly (relative to capability) more than has been/is being spent to keep them in saleable condition. I see this as a more likely and viable option (both economically and politically) for the NZDF.

-Cheers
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have been out of NZ for a long time and honestly not completely up with the play. But as I'm overpaying taxes here I feel obliged to give my views on what I think Wayne Mapp should do if he is fortunate to get the defence portfolio next year. Its not comprehensive but its best I can do off the top of my head at 1am. Be kind as its my Birthday!

GDP Defence Spend
I would like to see New Zealands GDP spend increased to 1.75% of GDP from where it is at present over the next 5 years. This would at least put it in the mid range of other OECD nations. I would also like to see the future major capital procurement items funded on a separate fiscal stream from general operating costs i.e; a NZDF operations budget and a NZDF major projects procurement budget. I would like to see these large ticket items be GST free and the capital charge gone by lunchtime.

Whenuapei
Whenuapei needs to stay as defence force facility. A Joint Forces Operational and Transiton Centre for example. Regional Army Units, Naval Helicopters, Maritime Patrol Aircraft and other NZDF support elements can be based. It is strategically important to have a defence major facility retained within metropolitan Auckland other than Devonport NB.

The Rebirth of 1st Rangers Company (Not to be confused with the old 60s NZSAS monicker)
This unit existed from the mid 80s until 1990 when Labour canned it. Basically a rapidly deployable combat infantry / special operations capability that can cover the gap between 1 NZSAS Group and the traditional RNZIR units. I suppose this could be what Mr Mapp means as his light patrol force? If possible I'd like to see a more 'marine' focused unit developed. Ron Mark has floated some ideas about this. A 'Marine' Company Group?

The Re-alignment of the Territorial Army
There also needs to be some rationalisation of the TF which only numbers 1700. We have 6 heavily depleted Territorial Battalions "Groups". They need to be merged in 3 functional and potentially deployable Battalion Groups of a thousand personnel. The 3 new territorial battalion groups would be regionally based. For example the new Central Region Battalion Group merged from the former 7th TF Battalion and 5th TF Battalion would become part of 2 Land Force Group at Linton. Historical traditions of former units can be retained within the relevant new units. For example ‘Hauraki Company’ or ‘Otago Company’. Pretty much based on the old military districts geographically. Obviously each regional territorial battalion group would have the relevant administrative, medical, logistic, and combat support elements. A range of reward measures would be available to recruit and retain Territorial staff would be introduced. The elements of the Territorial Army in recent years have been used on overseas deployment as New Zealand has struggled to meet required personnel levels to sustain operational commitments. It is a reality of the 21st century that this will have to continue. New Zealand will struggle to raise a regular army of more than 5500 for the foreseeable future. The role of the Territorial Army is vital in New Zealand being able to carry out its national and regional responsibilities. The TA should have its principal focus on civil emergences and disasters in New Zealand and low level Peacekeeping type deployments overseas. Thus it will be focused particularly on the low threat end of the combat spectrum. The deployment of a TA personnel to the Solomon Islands recently is an example of where the TA can really help out. The scope to round out regular force deployments. We need to get the TA to over 3000 personnel.


Regular Army Capability, Structure and Focus
A two regular infantry battalion structure has been the solid base of the NZ Army for many years. A third regular infantry battalion is I think someway off because the lack of personnel, but the Army does need the operational capacity of a third battalion equivalent. But I understand the New Zealand army would have to expand to over 7000 regulars to maintain a battalion at a Chapter 7 senario. That is part of the reason for the establishment of initially a Rangers Company and subsequently a 'Marine' focused unit over the next few years to enable the Army to work towards it. With these units and some supplementation from the TA an additional third battalion sized force could be formed if required. Nevertheless New Zealand needs to have to capacity to provide an additional emergency contribution, as well as time for training and other long-term commitments that are already in existence such as the PRC team in Afghanistan. What if the scenario of an additional emergency commitment rose up during a major battalion group sized commitment? For example if another Timor type operation involving a Battalion group rotation was underway and trouble broke out close to home say in the Solomons, Tonga or some other Pacific trouble spot. This might require another company group sized operation possibly for up to another year. This is exactly the commitment and role, which I envisage TA would be, involved with. After an emergency stabilising force of a regular Infantry Company, or say Marines or Rangers have initially deployed, the ongoing follow up deployment would come from TA deployment.

Frigate Replacement Programme
New Zealand must have a maritime priority as 98% of out trade by volume goes through by ship. An expanding part of this trade is heading north into Asia. No doubt all of you are aware of the myriad of territorial and resource disputes in that part of the world. A maritime stand-off over the Senkaku's or Spratley's would bleed New Zealand very quickly in terms of Asian Trade and Tourism. God forbid it ever getting hot! New Zealand really needs to have at least 3 to 4 combat capable ships with enough range to contribute to the security of our lengthy sea-lanes and its other maritime responsiblity. The LCS has been mentioned by Mr Mapp as an addition to the Anzac frigates. Gut feeling it doesn't seem right. There is another option also emerging in the planned Danish Patrolship based on the recently commisioned Absalon Class Command Ships. Denmark will introduce this new class of three vessels early next decade. The term 'Patrol Ship' has been used by the Danes so not to frighten voters. Its actually planned to be a sizable yet reasonably affordable Frigate. Two Patrolships would be ideal. The cheaper alternative would be the Absalon itself which retains adequate weopan systems plus an additional sealift capability.

Project Protector - MRV and OPV.
If 3 to 4 frigate sized vessels are back in business for the RNZN. I would leave these vessels as they are for what they are.

Helicopters
Currently the Government have eight NH90 Tactical Transport Helicopters to replace the fourteen elderly Huey’s UH-1B’s. The NH-90’s will be a great asset and I suppose the justification for getting just eight was the price. The T/LUH order of 6 - (possibly 8) at present is not going to be enough. I'm a big fan of the Agusta A109 LUH and hope it gets the nod. I would like to see 12 aircraft of this type as it is essentially a cheap but capable aircraft. An ideal complement to the SH-2G and the NH-90s. A further couple of SH-2G's would be required for the expanded frigate fleet and the project protector fleet.

Tactical Transport
The fleet of up-rated C-130H transport aircraft will have to do until 2020. I remember reading Air Marshal Adamson opinions a few years ago that the NZDF had the tasking requirement for eight Herc's. So it would be great to get hold of another three C-130H's from somewhere (AMARC?) and run them through the current upgrade programme. The A400M eventually to replace the Herc's at some stage.


Artillery.
Replacement of the Hamel L119 105mm Light Field Gun needs to happen within the next few years. The standard NATO field artillery piece is becoming the L777 155mm Ultra-light Field Gun. I would like to see enough for at least three batteries. I'd like to see increased numbers of the Low Level Air Defence Missile capability. The Labour Government purchased just 12 firing units. Another 12 more would be at least suitable. Also we should look at doubling the number of Javelin's as well.

Patrol and Naval Support Vessels
The new IPV programme from Project Protector will be adequate for inshore EEZ patrols. New Zealand will need to replace the Fleet Supply Ship Endeavour by 2013 as well as provide for the replacement of the Dive Support Vessel and Survey Ship sometime next decade. So this needs to be planned for. MCM capability needs to be addressed. Are any of the RAN Huons still left in Reserve?

Army Engineers
New Zealand needs to modernise and expand it capability in it engineers function. I'd like to see an additional field squadron raised over the next few years.

Maritime Patrol
Alongside the Orion P3-C long-range patrol aircraft the NZDF requires the ability to patrol its inner EEZ. Such an aircraft would need to be multi-mission and cover the requirements for multi-engine training, light transport, medic-vac, VIP, SAR and coastal patrol. The Bombardier Q300MM seems to be an ideal aircraft for this role with its quick change modular system. A total of six aircraft would be ideal. This aircraft would replace the small and limited range and capability Kingair B-300 and the ten Andover and Friendship aircraft that never were replaced when retired a few years ago. Definately look to the P8 in the future.

Naval and Air Force Volunteer Reserve
I'd love to see these organisations recieve a higher public profile and support. New Zealand with its population limits cannot supply enough defence personnel to provide for a regular defence force of around the 10000 to 15000 range. We need the supplementary role of not only our Territorial Army based around three well equiped, trained and funded Battalion Groups, but also develop the personnel capacity of our Naval and Air Force Reserve. The Territorial Army requires around 3000 personnel for 3 battalion groups. I'd like to see a RNZNVR of around 500 and a similar number in the Air Force Reserve. The role the RNZNVR can play is significant in our EEZ maritime protection. With the arrival of our four new Inshore Patrol vessels the RNZNVR has an excellent platform. Also a re-invigoration of our Territorial Air Force Reserve is essential. Aircraft such as the Q300 MM for coastal patrol, light transport and training could very well involve part-timers in the piloting and support roles. Likewise aircraft such as the B757's, LUH Helicopters could also operate with some Reserve assistance. There is a cost effective side to this. I believe though that the Reserve Service should be rewarded in some form of financial compensation or benefits.

The Macchi's
Last year I flew from Osaka to Vienna and by chance sat (well the thoughtful Japanese airline staff placed the only two Gaijins together) next to a Finameccanica middle management employee and obviously the conversation turned to the MB339's and how New Zealand was still trying to sell its seventeen aircraft. Her comment delivered in a dissmissive tone was " Your planes wont be going anywhere." I tried to get her to elaborate she wasn't interested. It speaks volumes though about why those planes will be stuck in a hanger in Woodbourne for a very long time. Mr Goff probably knows this all too well. After all he doesn't want another scandal raining on his leadership ambitions before the election. Likewise National are deliberately taking the ACF off their public defence agenda as they want to enoculate potential political risks. What we all need to realise is that after the election National will only then reveal its revised defence policy once it has undertaken its Defence Review. The promise of a full and comprehensive Defence Review with public and professional input in its first term is really its only policy. Defence will only be a component of an overall Foreign Affairs/Trade/Intelligence policy package. In the defence policy review all the components will be considered alongside each other. The other consideration is that National may well have to deal with the MMP environment. It may well have to deal with NZ First and Act who are arguably more poltically hawkish on Defence than National. It will also have the stick and carrot of the US to deal with too. Remember how the FTA prospects soured after the F-16s were cancelled. Remember how things fell into place for Chile's FTA and its F16s arrived. How the Poles are flavour of the month in Washington and the Czech's have run into road blocks. Trade deals and favoured access involve trade offs and all good Tory's know this. The ACF issue is still live and but wont be played out immediately. (Sorry its kind of long but I got on sort of a roll)
 
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Markus40

New Member
Just for the record someone made mention that there wasnt any political party in NZ that would support the reintroduction of our air combat fleet.

WRONG

NZ First party that shares a fair number of seats in parliament, although not as big as the Labour party by a long shot strongly supports the bringing back of our Air Combat force.
 

kiwifighter300

New Member
Be kind as its my Birthday!

Happy Birthday! Excellent post. I few things I might be able to help with.

Tactical Transport

The RAAF made the offer to add 8 C130J-30s to there order for the RNZAF, so both enjoy the reduced purchase price but that was rejected by labour.
I believe some of the C130H of 36sqn RAAF are going to be retired then the C17s are fully operational. So we could buy those for upgrade knowing they have been looked after (As apposed to AMARC where they have been parked in the desert for how ever long)



Are any of the RAN Huons still left in Reserve? I believe they are being returned to service as EEZ patrol craft in the northern waters
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Be kind as its my Birthday!

Happy Birthday! Excellent post. I few things I might be able to help with.

Tactical Transport

The RAAF made the offer to add 8 C130J-30s to there order for the RNZAF, so both enjoy the reduced purchase price but that was rejected by labour.
I believe some of the C130H of 36sqn RAAF are going to be retired then the C17s are fully operational. So we could buy those for upgrade knowing they have been looked after (As apposed to AMARC where they have been parked in the desert for how ever long)

Are any of the RAN Huons still left in Reserve? I believe they are being returned to service as EEZ patrol craft in the northern waters
The Huons are all in commission. Four are operating as mine warfare vessels and the other two (as you suggest) are being use for patrol work (IIRC their mine warfare equipment is in storage).

Cheers
 

buglerbilly

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The RAAF made the offer to add 8 C130J-30s to there order for the RNZAF, so both enjoy the reduced purchase price but that was rejected by labour.
Nope thats wrong, sorry........

The relevant Defence Departments had separate agreement with the US Government & the Manufacturer to procure certain numbers of aircraft within certain specified Milestone/Cut-off dates.

The savings accrued only if both Governments procured C-130J's within specified time periods.

The NZ Government allowed the option and its relevant date to expire without any action.

All agreements that may have been in place related to Costs and Delivery thus expired with that Milestone date.

Neither the RAAF nor the RNZAF are involved in THAT process as they are the Users not the Customers, the relevant Governments are the Customers.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
The Rebirth of 1st Rangers Company (Not to be confused with the old 60s NZSAS monicker)
This unit existed from the mid 80s until 1990 when Labour canned it. Basically a rapidly deployable combat infantry / special operations capability that can cover the gap between 1 NZSAS Group and the traditional RNZIR units. I suppose this could be what Mr Mapp means as his light patrol force? If possible I'd like to see a more 'marine' focused unit developed. Ron Mark has floated some ideas about this. A 'Marine' Company Group?
I completely agree with the idea of a "Ranger" company at this though a third Battalion could be nice a free standing company trained for higher end military operations would be a excellent asset to the NZDF, this could be supplemented by a ready force of LAV's. I have long pondered this idea and think it would be vital in allowing the NZDF to have a truly effective force

Leave the 1 RNZIR as mounted, 1/2 as light, the QAMR train as light cavalry with recce components and if the budget would allow with a tracked component for infantry support. This allows the 1/2 to be mounted as necessar via the QAMR.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Here's proof that the Macchis could be flying for training purposes if RNZAF / NZDF wanted them to - Govt wouldn't stop them.

http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyr...72-30ECC79F775A/57858/DBSCH_SCR_3814_5182.pdf

This begs the question why they aren't - but then:
(1) There is not enough pilots & some other trades so support for a new 'unit' is probably at present difficult.
(2) I doubt there is a funding base for doing so - RNZAF would need to fund out of existing budget & their use would see that evaporate a lot quicker!
(3) I doubt there is currently a clearly defined role for their use that would require them for more than a few hours each week - a lot of cost for little gain!?! Mid you if Govt directed they could be 'resourced' & funded accordingly - but until that happens...!

I guess the Navy is probably happy enough with their existing civvy operator (Air Affairs) - but why isn't the Army jumping up & down calling out for CAS / Air-Defence training? Surely the Army must be lobbying someone somewhere!?!

If the RNZAF / NZDF don't want them now - will National gain enough traction within those 2 organisations to further tye proposal or will it simply die away after election 08!?!

Perhaps the money would be better spent on 2 x KC-130J & some serious armament for T/LUH!?!
 
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