The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

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Alpha Epsilon

New Member
That would imply that the Saudis are mad at the UK for the US investigation, I doubt that's the case. Actually I think they are mad at the USA. They are probably waiting at the moment for a bit of calm and Brown to get accustomed to the relationship, then there there probably will be the Eurofighter, Tornado upgrade and missiles orders. Other things under discussion are Hawks and Type 45s. How long will they take to get orders signed? Recent sources suggested iirc September or October 2007 for the first orders. The Hawks are pretty certain to be ordered, the Type 45s are a perhaps, but suggestions are that these orders where the Saudis haven't committed yet will take a bit. But in the end the Saudis will imo not risk a very good relationship with the UK and also BAE Systems.
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
Other things under discussion are Hawks and Type 45s. How long will they take to get orders signed? Recent sources suggested iirc September or October 2007 for the first orders. The Hawks are pretty certain to be ordered, the Type 45s are a perhaps, but suggestions are that these orders where the Saudis haven't committed yet will take a bit. But in the end the Saudis will imo not risk a very good relationship with the UK and also BAE Systems.
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Type 45 is being offered as part of a larger UK-supplied naval order. The current proposal seems to be centred on at least 2xType 45 DDGH, another 3xAl Jawf (Sandown-Class) MHCs and 2xBay Class LHDs. Upgrades to the current Al Jawf Minehunters and a new C4I system for the RSNF are also on offer.

What should be remembered though is that similar deals are being offered by the US and France. The US deal offers "evolved" Burke-Class AEGIS similar to what the RAN was offered for their AWD requirement. The Saudis have also shown great interest in GD's Littoral Combat Ship design.

France, which has long been the key supplier to the RSNF is offering large deals that include further F-3000S FFGH, Horizon-Type DDGHM, Aquitaine (FREMM) multi-mission frigates, Mistral Class LHDM, Scorpene SSKs and SCALP Naval Cruise Missiles. Eurocopter are completing agreements in regards to new naval helicopters and Dassault are offering the Atlantique 3 for any future RSNF maritime patrol requirement.


But as I always say when it comes to Saudi, the money may be their, but the manpower for all this kit certainly isn't. The RSNF struggles to operate its current fleet - never mind advanced types like Type45, Burke or Horizon.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Izzy1 said:
Type 45 is being offered as part of a larger UK-supplied naval order. The current proposal seems to be centred on at least [snip] and 2xBay Class LHDs. ....
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Bay-class aren't LHDs. Limited helicopter support facilities (No hangar, two spot flight deck). Even LPD is going too far. The RN calls them Landing Ship Docks - LSDs.

They're meant as second-wave ships, not first-wave assault ships, though they're immeasurably better as assault ships than the Round Table class they've replaced.
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
Swerve sorry your right, slip of my fingers, they are indeed Auxillary LSD.

From the marketing literature, not clear if any major changes from the RN's design is involved.
 
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WillS

Member
Alpha Epsilon said:
Whilst there hasn't been any news for some time, I don't think talks have been broken off. But I would expect any Saudi T45s not to impact a minimum of 6 for the Royal Navy.
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Not in quantity no, but perhaps in timing. I remember reading a while ago that the RN is facing a capital expenditure 'bulge' in the 2010-2014 timeframe. If the RN 'sold' units 5 and 6 to the Saudi's and then ordered another two units to replace them, the new units being delivered later, then that might help smooth out the cashflow.

WillS
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
Just a bit of background...

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - MARCH 21, 2007

UK and BAE play down Saudi Type 45 interest
Richard Scott - Jane's Naval Consultant, London

The UK government and BAE Systems are playing down press speculation regarding the possible sale of up to four Type 45 air-defence destroyers to Saudi Arabia.

Jane's, however, understands that the Royal Saudi Naval Forces (RSNF) have indicated their interest in the Type 45 among a number of options for the renewal of their Eastern Fleet. France and the US are also courting Saudi Arabia for the projected order.

The UK Royal Navy (RN) has six Type 45 ships on order from BAE Systems Surface Fleet Solutions for delivery from late 2009. Construction is being shared with south-coast shipbuilder VT Shipbuilding and the two companies are expected to confirm details of a new joint venture company in a matter of weeks.

Displacing about 7,350 tons, the Type 45 is equipped with the MBDA-supplied Principal Anti-Air Missile System. The latter is based on the Sampson multifunction radar and Aster 15 and 30 surface-to-air missiles.

BAE Systems declined to comment on potential Saudi interest in Type 45. However, it is believed that the RSNF are thought to be interested in acquiring between two and four ships, with observers estimating the value of any deal at somewhere between GBP1.5 billion (USD2.9 billion) and GBP2.5 billion. One option would be for the RSNF to take two of the Type 45s already in build for the RN to allow for accelerated delivery.

The UK and Saudi Arabia have a long-standing bilateral relationship on defence. The Kingdom is currently negotiating a GBP10 billion deal with the UK for the supply of up to 72 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, having previously bought large numbers of Tornado and Hawk aircraft and an array of air-launched weapons under the Al Yamamah I and Al Yamamah II accords. BAE Systems is prime contractor for the Al Yamamah programme.

Three Al Jawf-class minehunters, built by VT, were supplied to Saudi Arabia under the umbrella of Al Yamamah II.

However, France and the US have traditionally dominated the supply of ships and systems to the RSNF. Most recently, three Al Riyadh-class (Type F 3000S) frigates built by DCN were delivered to the RSNF's Western Fleet.

Seven US-built Al Siddiq-class fast missile craft currently form the backbone of the Eastern Fleet. Other replacement options being reviewed by the RSNF include a multimission variant of the US Navy's Littoral Combat Ship.
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I am guessing that to maintain a constant Type 45 presence in the Gulf, 4 ships would be the minimum (the RSNF very rarely operates its ships over 3 month deployment schedules for numerous reasons).

If this is the case; Type 45 unit costs would obviously decrease, the MoD could contemplate further orders and the prospects for further exports increases.
 
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Dr Phobus

New Member
Concerning the T-45, does any one have any hard information on weapons expasion for the T-45 like: SSM, inner layer SAM system, the ablity for the present design too take more VLS cells

Also, any information on a IRST system.

This ship, capable, is suffering from a Classic RN problem; lack of firepower.

Thoughts please
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Dr Phobus said:
Concerning the T-45, does any one have any hard information on weapons expasion for the T-45 like: SSM, inner layer SAM system, the ablity for the present design too take more VLS cells

Also, any information on a IRST system.

This ship, capable, is suffering from a Classic RN problem; lack of firepower.

Thoughts please
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I strongly suggest, if you haven't already done so, reading everything on Richard Beedalls excellent (if somewhat pessimistic, but he's entitled to his opinion & I'm not going to argue with anyone so well-informed) site. -
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/

Type 45 - http://navy-matters.beedall.com/t45main.htm

I have read elsewhere, but cannot vouch for its reliability, that there is room for another 24 VLS cells, & they can be fitted in the same housing as the current 48, in between the two rows. It looks tight, though. There is room for anti-ship missiles between the VLS housing & the bridge. I believe there are spots for fitting a CIWS, & that old Phalanx mounts may be recycled onto them.
 
Tasman

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
According to Beedall the Type 45 is planned to be fitted with 2x CIWS (Phalanx) but plans for a SSM have been dropped to save money. This has also been the case with the later USN Arleigh Burkes.

Cheers
 
alexsa

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Tasman said:
According to Beedall the Type 45 is planned to be fitted with 2x CIWS (Phalanx) but plans for a SSM have been dropped to save money. This has also been the case with the later USN Arleigh Burkes.

Cheers
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Rather than being completely dropped I understand it is more case of "fitted for but not with" and the necesary cables are in place and space and wieght have been provided. If this is the case it sould not be a major issue to fit the cannesters if desired (provided the gear and missiles are available).
 
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WillS

Member
Tasman said:
According to Beedall the Type 45 is planned to be fitted with 2x CIWS (Phalanx) but plans for a SSM have been dropped to save money. This has also been the case with the later USN Arleigh Burkes.
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If you take a look at some of the sea trail pictures of Daring currently making the rounds, the mounting platform for the Phalanx units can clearly be seen jutting out just behind the 30mm guns.

I suspect they are waiting until the RN finds a couple of them that have fallen of the back of a lorry (or a Type 42) before refurbishing and fitting. There was a news item a little while ago regarding an order the RN had placed to refurb 16 Phalanx to the latest standard, which would seem to fit the bill.

WillS
 
Tasman

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
WillS said:
If you take a look at some of the sea trail pictures of Daring currently making the rounds, the mounting platform for the Phalanx units can clearly be seen jutting out just behind the 30mm guns.

I suspect they are waiting until the RN finds a couple of them that have fallen of the back of a lorry (or a Type 42) before refurbishing and fitting. There was a news item a little while ago regarding an order the RN had placed to refurb 16 Phalanx to the latest standard, which would seem to fit the bill.

WillS
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It would be good if the Phalanx mounts are upgraded as it would give them a supplementary anti surface capacity , adding an additional weapon system for use against fast attack craft and to deal with swarm attacks.

Cheers
 
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Super Nimrod

New Member
This is really good news, at last. :D

The video they issued with the press release suggests that MASC is still going to be provided by Sea Kings. I hope that really isn't the case :(
 
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