Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Okay, it appears that some of the idea I was considering didn't quite come out right, so I'll try another tack to see if I can make myself understood.

I was not suggesting that the RAN start having different crewmembers switch out during the course of a deployment. As mentioned, it is better for a crew to work and train together than to continually have turnover. Nor for that matter was I suggesting that the RAN start operating warships in the manner the US used to do with submarines, having a Blue and a Gold crew which would switch between deployments. In fact, I recommend keeping the crew togher is best.

The idea was (given the potential shortfall of RAN personnel) that there would be two crews, each crew working, training and deploying together. The difference would be in which vessel the crew were aboard for a particular deployment. In some respects it would be like have a Blue ship, and a Gold ship, with the crew changing from one ship to another for a time.

As I mentioned though, not sure exactly how effective this would be, and I would consider this more of an alternative plan to scrapping or mothballing existing warships (or those in the process of being acquired) that due to lack of sufficient crews can't be manned at all times.

-Cheers

I can see benefits from what you are suggesting Tod but I worry about the disadvantages.

The main thing that worries me about this is that a highly efficient crew who get a particular ship into top shape may then be transferred to one that has had a less efficient crew and is in comparatively poor shape. Whilst in some ways this might be good for the run down ship it would be demoralising for the 'good' crew who would then have to start all over again. I don't think it would be good for morale. I would be interested to hear from people like Pusser01 or other serving or past members of the RAN to find out their opinions. It may well be that it would not create the problems I imagine.

I think the RAN needs to get its act together with finding ways of retaining its experienced personnel so that all of its ships can be efficiently kept in full commission.

Cheers
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Personally, I prefer the idea of one crew, one ship with regards manning MFU's. It helps to have a sense of ownership with one's ship, feel that it is a home, rather than just treating it as a workplace which has been noted amongst the Patrol boat sailors. At the moment command is looking at a variety of ideas, one of them is determining what crewing an MFU requires for normal operation, ie basic exercises, patrolling etc. On my ship we just completed Resolute with a complement below 150, that is while still maintaining 2 boarding parties. Our normal manning is 180 with 200 for Gulf ops.
Most sailors I know don't have any problem with being away for deployments, we would just prefer to have more time off for respite when back alongside our home ports. I personally am looking forward to having 18 months ashore when my ship pays off early next year, after having spent the last 4 1/2 years at sea.
As for recruitment issues, well don't have many ideas for that one, wouldn't mind a little bit more in the pay packet though ;)
There are some proposals to help retention eg bonuses, home loan schemes etc that are meant to make it more attractive to stay in longer.
Meanwhile I intend to enjoy my 2 weeks leave
Cheers :)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Personally, I prefer the idea of one crew, one ship with regards manning MFU's. It helps to have a sense of ownership with one's ship, feel that it is a home, rather than just treating it as a workplace which has been noted amongst the Patrol boat sailors. At the moment command is looking at a variety of ideas, one of them is determining what crewing an MFU requires for normal operation, ie basic exercises, patrolling etc. On my ship we just completed Resolute with a complement below 150, that is while still maintaining 2 boarding parties. Our normal manning is 180 with 200 for Gulf ops.
Most sailors I know don't have any problem with being away for deployments, we would just prefer to have more time off for respite when back alongside our home ports. I personally am looking forward to having 18 months ashore when my ship pays off early next year, after having spent the last 4 1/2 years at sea.
As for recruitment issues, well don't have many ideas for that one, wouldn't mind a little bit more in the pay packet though ;)
There are some proposals to help retention eg bonuses, home loan schemes etc that are meant to make it more attractive to stay in longer.
Meanwhile I intend to enjoy my 2 weeks leave
Cheers :)
I absolutely agree, it is better to have one ship: one crew, the scenario I am attempting to solve is how the RAN could handle reduced naval personnel after commissioning new vessels (more ships than the RAN can crew) or, an increased operational tempo where more units need to be deployed for longer durations. This would lead to more need for maintenance, etc.

As for an efficient crew taking over for a less efficiently run ship... That shouldn't be likely, since the vessel the crew would be taking over should just be coming out of a dockyard refit. More later.

-Cheers
 

nero

New Member
around 50

Mod edit:

This is a load of rubbish. It has been announced publicly in Australia and by Boeing AND by the US FMS announcements that Australia is buying 24 Super Hornets.

That's it.

As I said above, start support these outrageous claims or further corrective action will be taken.

AD
.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
.
what happened to the plans by the RAN to acquire CAMANCHE copters??
somehow the news has dissapeared into the background.
any updates brothers???

.
There were never any plans, even when there was such a helicopter (presuming you mean Comanche, it was cancelled in 2005, & anyway there was no naval variant). You just made it up.

When is someone going to ban this idiot?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
. although no exact number is available, sources say at least 52 superhornets r going down-under.

speculatoin is ripe that the number may increase upto 80.

cheers !!
More nonsense from the waste of bandwidth & oxygen. Ah well, there's an ignore function. Time to use it.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
.

what happened to the plans by the RAN to acquire CAMANCHE copters??

somehow the news has dissapeared into the background.

any updates brothers???


.
There has NEVER been any proposal to equip the RAN with the Commanche, a helo which has been cancelled by the US Army and is not in production.


Cheers
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
One element of crewing is the ship itself. Give people better crew spaces and use automation to reduce the overall crewing. While it lost out the Mistral only needed 140-160 crew to do the same as a Juan Carlos's 240 in the LHD competition. The reason being bridge and engine room automation and an improved fire suppression system.

The frigate version of the General Dynamics/Austal LCS has a crew of 110 compared to 180 for an ANZAC frigate. The MMC [Multi-Mission Combatant] actually has more capability than the ANZAC (more speed, weapons, sensors and two helos), more internal space for higher level of crew comfort yet 70 less people.

http://www.gdlcs.com/documents/mm_brochure_final.pdf

Early decommissioning of the ANZACs and replacement with the MMC would save over 500 people. Considering the Government is spending AUD 1.2 billion to upgrade the ANZAC’s combat system over the next 10 years this money would go a long way towards starting an early replacement program.

The Navy needs to realise that it isn't Master and Commander time anymore and cutting crew does not necessarily cut capability.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One element of crewing is the ship itself. Give people better crew spaces and use automation to reduce the overall crewing. While it lost out the Mistral only needed 140-160 crew to do the same as a Juan Carlos's 240 in the LHD competition. The reason being bridge and engine room automation and an improved fire suppression system.

The frigate version of the General Dynamics/Austal LCS has a crew of 110 compared to 180 for an ANZAC frigate. The MMC [Multi-Mission Combatant] actually has more capability than the ANZAC (more speed, weapons, sensors and two helos), more internal space for higher level of crew comfort yet 70 less people.

http://www.gdlcs.com/documents/mm_brochure_final.pdf

Early decommissioning of the ANZACs and replacement with the MMC would save over 500 people. Considering the Government is spending AUD 1.2 billion to upgrade the ANZAC’s combat system over the next 10 years this money would go a long way towards starting an early replacement program.

The Navy needs to realise that it isn't Master and Commander time anymore and cutting crew does not necessarily cut capability.
There is a good reason this ship has a shallow draft and high speed and that relates to is construction (light weight) which will be a limitation in the souther ocean. These are a lot more fragile than the ANZAC. It s speed while greater comes at a cost of range and the Mk41 prositioning can only mean the short tube.

This is simply a pie in the sky proposal to extend the LCS hull, which by the way for cost and capability is proving to be much more expensive than ever considered and the first ship (monohull Lockheed) is over 300m over budget and is not yet completed. The LCS has very limited escort capability with the standard fitted weapons system even at this cost:

57mm
HMG's
SeaRAM

It greatest advantage is the helo capability but given the wieght margins if you carry helos and sotes and fuel this will cut into the payload of the hull (which includes mission modules which are an additional cost). So carry two helos and allthe gear you have to compensate by carrying less in the way of mission modules

This is not a good option forthe RAN.
 

nero

New Member
anzac

.

the australians r modifying the ANZAC-class for the better.

here r some modifications.

Admin Text deleted. Post reported by other members for copy and paste issues.

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In this case, the info you had was a copy and paste from Wiki

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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
.

the australians r modifying the ANZAC-class for the better.

here r some modifications.

CEA SSCWI fitted for control of the ESSM missile in upgraded RAN units.
Upward creep in ship manning led the RAN to undertake a habitability upgrade study. Additionally, restructuring the Marine Engineering Department has resulted in a change in the rank / billet structure, creating a need to re-work some habitation areas. Habitability upgrades are intended to provide added flexibility for additional training bunks, force protection personnel, special operations personnel and mixed genders onboard the ships, by increasing the ships berthing by +11 from 174 to 185 berths. The additional +11 berths have a ranking mix of +2 Officers, +2 CPO's, +2 PO's & +5 JR's. Arunta has completed her upgrade and remaining units will follow.


The Australian Defence Department decided to upgrade their Anzacs even before all ships were completed, the upgraded configuration includes, RGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles fitted in two Quad Launchers, Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles Quad Packed in VLS enabling 32 missiles to be carried, 4 Nulka active missile decoys and the Petrel Mine and Obstacle Avoidance Sonar system. All upgrades and new builds are scheduled for completion by 2006.

Subsequent upgrades will focus on anti-ship missile defence, and are slated to include, an additional fire control channel, IRST (Infra-red search and track) system and two RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile close in weapons systems. In September 2005, the RAN selected the CEA Technologies CEA-FAR 3D E/F band, fixed active phased array radar for improved fire control against anti-ship missiles. The radar will enter service from 2009.


.
This appears to be a direct cut and paste from....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANZAC_class_frigate

Correct me if I am wrong but unless you wrote the original wikipedia entry it is word for word minus a few dots.

It should be remembers the ANZAC being givne to Willimastown naval dockyard (many in the navy were hoping he 'M' class would be selected) appeared to be very much a political decision from those at the receiving end (i.e. the RAN) noting the ALP had problems in Victoria at the time.

As a result it was very much a fitted for but not with vessel hence the need to progress upgrades ASAP. As an example the 18" TT fitted to the first of class were actrually removed from the River Class as they paid off. the outfit as cintially completed:

A 5" gun
A couple of HMG's
8 Sea Sparrow (total capcity of the Mk41 launcher)
2 x Triple SLT (when fitted)
1 helo (when finally carried)

is a pretty dismal weapons fit for a ship of this size and is alarmingly deficient in ASMD.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
.

the australians r modifying the ANZAC-class for the better.

here r some modifications.

Admin Text deleted. Post reported by other members for copy and paste issues.

Please note - You MUST indicate where information is sourced from due to copywrite issues.

In this case, the info you had was a copy and paste from Wiki

Please ensure that you credential your sources in future.
Sorry gf. I must have been typing when you responded otherwise I would have refrained from having my dig.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
One element of crewing is the ship itself. Give people better crew spaces and use automation to reduce the overall crewing. While it lost out the Mistral only needed 140-160 crew to do the same as a Juan Carlos's 240 in the LHD competition. The reason being bridge and engine room automation and an improved fire suppression system.
I think everyone is happy with the LHD decision with the BPE. There is still a high degree of automation over say something like the Invincible carriers. If you are going to have higher crewing levels, best to have it only on the ships you have the fewest of (two) and the most spacious quarters (definately). Given the massive increase in capability the BPE offers and the fact it is basically a aircraft carrier will draw people to the navy. People love massive ships.

That said I do hope they find ways to automate and improve the BPE design to keep crewing levels to the lower side of 200.

The Navy needs to realise that it isn't Master and Commander time anymore and cutting crew does not necessarily cut capability.
This is very true, and there are many places where crewing levels could be cut. The navy should seriously rethink what people are willing to do for a long term job. Better conditions, better work, better pay, more flexability. The days that you could have a endless supply of deck scrubbers and grunts is comming to an end. Automation levels should be very high and increasing.
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There is a good reason this ship has a shallow draft and high speed and that relates to is construction (light weight) which will be a limitation in the souther ocean. These are a lot more fragile than the ANZAC. It s speed while greater comes at a cost of range and the Mk41 prositioning can only mean the short tube.
The Southern Ocean is not the be all and end all of RAN operations. Frankly its more for the constabulary type operations anyway and with MV Oceanic Viking in service is less and less a RAN concern. Certainly a heavy seas requirement should not be driving something as important as actually having enough sailours to crew our 12-15 frigates for oeprational deployment into the MEAO, SEA and SWP areas. That being said aluminum multi-hulls have successfuly worked Bass Strait and Cook Strait...

The MMC has tactical length Mk41 launchers the same as ANZAC, but up to 32 cells instead of 48. With straight through Mk48 lauchers they could be strike length enabling SM6, Tomahawk, etc to be carried.

This is simply a pie in the sky proposal to extend the LCS hull, which by the way for cost and capability is proving to be much more expensive than ever considered and the first ship (monohull Lockheed) is over 300m over budget and is not yet completed. The LCS has very limited escort capability with the standard fitted weapons system even at this cost:

57mm
HMG's
SeaRAM
The MMC has an identical hull to the LCS just with a more frigate like missions ystems, rather than the reconfigurable MCM/SOF type fitout of the LCS. The cost overuns of LCS1 have more to do with the USN turning on the head the original commercial spec during construction and asking for more and more naval specs and problems with the Lockheed Martin operation.

The LCS2 Austal design will be much cheaper than conventional frigates because the hull is cheaper to build and systems fitout is easier due to the open type structure allowing for easier access.

It greatest advantage is the helo capability but given the wieght margins if you carry helos and sotes and fuel this will cut into the payload of the hull (which includes mission modules which are an additional cost). So carry two helos and allthe gear you have to compensate by carrying less in the way of mission modules
The weight issue is only if you want to go barrelling around at 40+ knots. If you keep at more ANZAC like speeds then you don't have to burn the extra fuel, even if at full weight. The paylod of the hull is far superior to that of conventional steel monohulls of equivlant overall displacement.

This is not a good option forthe RAN.
Its perfectly fine. But the key point is automation... saving another 70 crew per ship makes a huge difference for the RAN.
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think everyone is happy with the LHD decision with the BPE. There is still a high degree of automation over say something like the Invincible carriers. If you are going to have higher crewing levels, best to have it only on the ships you have the fewest of (two) and the most spacious quarters (definately). Given the massive increase in capability the BPE offers and the fact it is basically a aircraft carrier will draw people to the navy. People love massive ships.
Well Thales Australia aren't... But what's the point of having a nicer ship if you can't crew it?

That said I do hope they find ways to automate and improve the BPE design to keep crewing levels to the lower side of 200.
You can't. Unless we spend big money and design and test our own system we get what's in the Juan Carlos I.

This is very true, and there are many places where crewing levels could be cut. The navy should seriously rethink what people are willing to do for a long term job. Better conditions, better work, better pay, more flexability. The days that you could have a endless supply of deck scrubbers and grunts is comming to an end. Automation levels should be very high and increasing.
Automation is at a peak anyway - 180 on an Alvaro de Bazan compared to 330 on a Charles F. Adams. The next step is automating the bridge and engine room, which is what the Mistral offered. This way you cut some of the hardest people to keep: bridge and engine room watchkeepers. Of course these are the people who run the Navy so this doesn't go down to well when you tell them you want to cut their billets, despite the fact they can't fill them.

A ship like the Canberra class LHD will actually have a pretty large and fixed number of you more basic scrubber to run the flight deck. Its trained gorilla work but you can't replace it with a non-human, yet.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Southern Ocean is not the be all and end all of RAN operations. Frankly its more for the constabulary type operations anyway and with MV Oceanic Viking in service is less and less a RAN concern. Certainly a heavy seas requirement should not be driving something as important as actually having enough sailours to crew our 12-15 frigates for oeprational deployment into the MEAO, SEA and SWP areas. That being said aluminum multi-hulls have successfuly worked Bass Strait and Cook Strait...

The MMC has tactical length Mk41 launchers the same as ANZAC, but up to 32 cells instead of 48. With straight through Mk48 lauchers they could be strike length enabling SM6, Tomahawk, etc to be carried..
Are you certain as the flyer shows them over the hull tunnels which would preclud tactical length as far as I can tell.

The MMC has an identical hull to the LCS just with a more frigate like missions ystems, rather than the reconfigurable MCM/SOF type fitout of the LCS. ..
Exactly which means it is a light weight aluminium structure for the most part and suffers all the problems associated wiht this. The hull this is based on is a fast ferry which is desinged to the HSC code with limited sea stat capability. Under the HSC the need to be 8 hours (cargo) or 4 hours (passenger) form a refuge in normal operatiosn at cruising speed. East coast of Australia will be a challenge for these for much of the year let alone the souther ocean orthe bight. The LCS is a littorial vessle not an open ocean escort.

The hulls have limited growth potential wihtout removing fitted equipment. the max uplift mass for LCS over base fit is only 400 tonnes and helos and associate support system will take a lot of that.

The cost overuns of LCS1 have more to do with the USN turning on the head the original commercial spec during construction and asking for more and more naval specs and problems with the Lockheed Martin operation...
No arguement but for a standard weapons fit not much better than a FAC it is a lot of money and the price will still be high even for follow on units. It fits the USN systems to have an adaptabe/convertable vessel for littorial operations but it fitted with its mission modules to fufill a given role. It is not a multi role escort. On top of this the 'frigate' has not yet been developed (hence pie in the sky) and the development cost for this version has yet to be factor into the sums. That will not be any cheaper than the same work for any other vessel but th hull you put it on will be more expensive to purchase and to run.

The LCS2 Austal design will be much cheaper than conventional frigates because the hull is cheaper to build and systems fitout is easier due to the open type structure allowing for easier access....
Where is your evidence for this. The hull is not cheaper. For the same size steel hull you would pay much less for both materials and construction. Price welding material for aluminium welding at your local hardware store and compare it to the cost of materails for mild steel. Have a look at Fairplay solutions for ships costs and you will find that an 127m aluminium HSC vessel is more expensive per tonne than a mild steel general cargo or even bog standard tanker hull by a number of mulitples depending on the fit out.

In so far as open design is concered you will max out on weight before you can fill the voids because of the hull configuration and the impact a lower draft has both on hull stress and performance with increased submerged area due to hydrodynamic drag, even at cruising speed. It also increase stresses on the hull given the bridged hull arrangment an increase the incidence of tunnel slam.


The weight issue is only if you want to go barrelling around at 40+ knots. If you keep at more ANZAC like speeds then you don't have to burn the extra fuel, even if at full weight. The paylod of the hull is far superior to that of conventional steel monohulls of equivlant overall displacement.....
Similar displacement.... yes, as the displacement is quite low and a steel hull vessel of the same displacment will be quite a bit smaller. Similar size ... no, A 100m container vessel (27m shorter than LCS) has between 6500 to 8000 DWT (cargo uplift at a sustained speed of 17 to 21 knots. A large vessel with a low and semi fixed draft will never compete with a vessel wiht a deeper draft capability on uplift, the laws of bouyancy are against you there.

Its perfectly fine. But the key point is automation... saving another 70 crew per ship makes a huge difference for the RAN.
Sorry can not agree as we will only have between 11 and 14 (maybe) escorts in the RAN and they need to be flexible. Get a good hull with large growth potential, as the strucutre will cost less to build (sorry HSC hulls are really expensive and have a lower overall life span), and automate that. As an example the largest container vessl in the world at 397m long has a crew of 13 (accomodation for 30).

http://www.maersk.com/NR/rdonlyres/...-417971C4A710/0/EmmaMærskL203FactSheetUK.pdf
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Automation is at a peak anyway - 180 on an Alvaro de Bazan compared to 330 on a Charles F. Adams. The next step is automating the bridge and engine room, which is what the Mistral offered. This way you cut some of the hardest people to keep: bridge and engine room watchkeepers. Of course these are the people who run the Navy so this doesn't go down to well when you tell them you want to cut their billets, despite the fact they can't fill them.

A ship like the Canberra class LHD will actually have a pretty large and fixed number of you more basic scrubber to run the flight deck. Its trained gorilla work but you can't replace it with a non-human, yet.
As mentioned in another thread the one concern I have about too big a reduction of crew in a combat vessel is the issue of damage control. I guess that automation can help in this area (auto sprinklers, pumps, etc) but there will most likely be times when I believe manpower will be needed to save a damaged ship.

Re the personnel savings that the Mistral class would have offered over the BPE, I think that the greater capability offered by the Spanish ship more than compensates for the requirement for a larger crew. Overall, however, I agree with what you are saying about the need to keep looking at ways of reducing crew requirements in our next generation of frigates, or whatever else replaces the Anzacs.

I would also like to see an early replacement of the Anzacs with ships with far better facilities for crew. Like Alexsa I am not convinced that the MMC is the right vessel to replace the Anzacs, although a development of this design may well be able to replace a portion with follow on Hobarts replacing the others (perhaps a 6/6 mix).

It will be interesting to see what long term plans the navy draws up for its future surface fleet now that decisions have been made for the Hobart and Canberra classes, around which the future surface fleet will be built.

Sorry can not agree as we will only have between 11 and 14 (maybe) escorts in the RAN and they need to be flexible. Get a good hull with large growth potential, as the strucutre will cost less to build (sorry HSC hulls are really expensive and have a lower overall life span), and automate that. As an example the largest container vessl in the world at 397m long has a crew of 13 (accomodation for 30).
I think you make a good point here. With a small escort force I agree that it is desirable for the RAN to have surface combat ships which are flexible and I think this would mitigate against the MMC type. My thoughts about a 6/6 mix would not fit this requirement. However, I still think the type is worthy of investigation for part of the force when the future force structure is reviewed.

Should the RAN go for a two tier force (total 12-14 ships) or a smaller surface combat fleet of perhaps 10 FFGs type ships (Hobart and/or similar)?


Cheers
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Where is your evidence for this. The hull is not cheaper. For the same size steel hull you would pay much less for both materials and construction. Price welding material for aluminium welding at your local hardware store and compare it to the cost of materails for mild steel. Have a look at Fairplay solutions for ships costs and you will find that an 127m aluminium HSC vessel is more expensive per tonne than a mild steel general cargo or even bog standard tanker hull by a number of mulitples depending on the fit out.
Just for clarity. What is meant here is cost per tonne uplift has an incredibly higher cost on a HSC hull compared to a steel hull of the same length.

The 127m trimaran ferry has a DWT of 400 to 450 tonnes (depending of figures) on 127 m. This includes:

fuel (ships bunkers)
stores
crew ...... and
cargo (250 PAX and 1000 cars)

This is a miniscule mass for the ship size and given the ship (including propulsion, auxillaries and systems) are not cheap so the cost of lifting limited weapons is proportionally very high. For LCS the same hull must support the standard weapons pack, mission modules and helecopter. Due to the nature of the hull it will have close to zero displacement growth potential (hence the use of mission modules to provide flexibility).

For a frigate version of the same hull any change in weaponary and/or systems must be at the expense of somthing fitted if it adds weight.

I love the GD web site indicating the great air asset capcity of the LCS wiht one C-53, two S-60 and up to 6 ROV (look like fire scout). Using max TOW on these assest you get

1 x C-53: 33 tonnes
2 x S-60: 20 tonnes
6 x MQ-8B: 9 tonnes

So the ship has used up 62 tonnes (15% of DWT) before it has loaded crew, stores (including food and water), bunkers for the ship and Jet A1, ammunition for ship and aircraft etc. This assumes that the LCS can stay within the light weight of the 127m ferry which I have some doubts about. In fact the tonange allowed for mission packages on LCS with a standard weapns fit is only 180 tonnes of which 75 tonnes is fuel. I suggest aircraft are mission packages and I suggest carrying all the aircraft listed above will limit the ability of the LCS to do anything else, or even do this for very long.

Another comparision. According to naval technoligy the ANZAC (which is a smaller combatant) has a full load dispalcement of 3600 tonnes on 118m LOA. USS Freedom at about the same length only has a displacement of about 2500 tonnes. To achieve the speed the weight reductionis vital but it comes at a cost in carrying capacity in respect of mass and limits range (even at cruising) with a published range of 4500nm which in the Australian context is not much. Hit the power and the range will plummet. In other LCS will need more support from other units both for defensive purposes and logistics support and that appears to be how the USN will operate them.

As for the frigate version noting the Mk41 8 cell module will weight 24 o 26 tonnes loaded adding 3 to 4 of these to the ship will addd up to 100 tonnes before we look at the two CIWS, Medium calibre gun, AEGIS (including directors) etc.

Sorry unless the extend the hull this thing will have pretty significant weight limitations on load out. Even extend it willnot lift as much as nor hull of the same LOA.

Finally both LCS designs are based around sea state 5. Sea state 5 is a "fresh breeze" with wind speed of 17 to 21 knots. Fromt he land perspective "small trees in leaf begin to say" ....

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/risk/sea_state_2.htm

We are not talking about much with a wave height of 4 to 6 feet. A quick look at "Ocean routes of the world will show that much on much of the globe there is greater than a 10% change of 12 feet for much of the year.
It is much worse from about 30S around Australia. This is not an issue for LCS in litorial waters, which are normally sheltered, but if the growth constrained frigate version were to replace surface combatants this is a major issue.

I will now get off my hobby horse
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
We are not talking about much with a wave height of 4 to 6 feet. A quick look at "Ocean routes of the world will show that much on much of the globe there is greater than a 10% change of 12 feet for much of the year.
It is much worse from about 30S around Australia. This is not an issue for LCS in litorial waters, which are normally sheltered, but if the growth constrained frigate version were to replace surface combatants this is a major issue.
The poor bad weather performance of the Incat wave piercing catamarans when they were on the Bass Strait run reinforces what you are saying.

Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Good news for the RAN. No wonder Russ Shalders was reportedly so happy...

$1.5 billion ship bonus

IAN McPHEDRAN
August 08, 2007 02:15am
A FOURTH air warfare navy destroyer will be built in Adelaide, worth $1.5 billion to the economy.

The Federal Government decision raises the budget for the existing three-warship plan to $9.5 billion

and guarantees a ship-building skills base for Australia in Adelaide well beyond 2020.

Defence will sign a contract with Spanish designer Navantia, builder Adelaide-based ASC and systems engineer Raytheon by mid-September, The Advertiser has learned.The 6000-tonne navy vessels will be customised - with an extra helicopter - versions of the Navantia F-100 warship.

Senior government sources say there are plans to announce ship number four as part of the election campaign.

Labor is unlikely to oppose the move after supporting the Spanish option over a U.S. bid that would not have allowed for a fourth ship.

The government is keen to make the majority taxpayer owned ASC yard at Osborne a national centre for shipbuilding excellence.

ASC, which now has billions of dollars worth of work on its books, is due to be sold during the next year.

By the time the fourth vessel is launched in about 2018 a decision would have been taken about the "Son of Collins" replacement submarine project and a new ship to replace the ANZAC frigates. Defence Minister Brendan Nelson has already hinted the yard would be in-line for the new submarine contract.

He told The Advertiser he would be hopeful the new generation boats would find an export market as well.

The first destroyer, equipped with the state-of-the-art U.S.-built Aegis combat system, is due to be launched in 2013 followed by two others at two-year intervals.

The head of the Defence Material Organisation, Stephen Gumley, has been pushing hard to up-skill the national workforce and strongly supports a fourth destroyer purely to maintain a skills base.

"Defence has recognised on several occasions the importance for the country of maintaining skills," Dr Gumley said.

Premier Mike Rann said the construction of a fourth ship would further boost the state's economy.

"This is a huge vote of confidence in the South Australian economy, our defence industry and our workers and it further justifies the $374 million investment the SA Government is making in the infrastructure, facilities and skills training centre at the Techport Australia site at Osborne," Mr Rann said last night.

"Although we have yet to be briefed on the fourth ship, our initial expectation is that a fourth ship will extend the life of the build program to about 2020, given the third ship is due to roll off the platform in about 2017.

"This adds more than $1 billion to the $8 billion defence project, which is already the largest defence contract of its type in Australia's history."

Meanwhile defence will spend about $20 million to upgrade another 40 Australian Light Armored Vehicles.

The vehicles will be used as replacements for those deployed in the Middle East Area of Operations which require overhaul after tough tours of duty.

This year the DMO's 7000 staff will manage a record $20 billion worth of defence contracts.

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4x ships with each ship being to a modified design that allows for the operation of 2x helo's per ship.

Nice...
 
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