How Good is the J-10?

[crobato]

There is absolutly no reason why J-10 could reliably beat J-11/Su-30 in BVR or WVR. They T/W ratio is very close, J-10 aerodinamic couldnt be better, they avionic and WVR weapon are surery about equal, they BVR avionic and weapon also couldnt be much different - at least not SO different in the favor of J-10.
So, it looks like another wishfull chinese dream.

You are not the PLAAF, and no matter what, you and all the opinions on this board is irrelevant. The PLAAF seriously thinks the J-10 is better, and if you think the J-11 or the Su-30MKK is better then WHY the hell the PLAAF stopped buying the two aircraft, despite the budget increases. The PLAAF is the one deciding what they want to buy, not you.

There are many reasons why a J-10 can own a J-11 or Su-30MKK.

The transient performance is superior. According to Chinese sources, the J-10 has a roll rate of around 300 degrees a second. That's roughly around the M2000's rate---deltas tend to have a fast roll rate. The F-16 can manage as far as 325 deg/sec. The Su-27 can do 225 deg/sec.

The instant turn rate is better. Again, this is typical of deltas. The J-10 is said to have an ITR of 31 deg/sec, comparable to the Rafale and Gripen. No word on the STR. Compared to a non canard design like the J-11, the J-10 can pitch faster and with greater responsiveness due to the canards pulling at the nose. Add relaxed stability to that and a digital FBW.

The radar of the J-11 or Su-30MKK is NOT BETTER. Despite the size, twist cassegrain antenna design is at least a GENERATION behind a mechanical scanning slotted array, which itself is being outmoded by passive phase array and AESA. That makes the J-11 or Su-30MKK radar two gens behind PESA alone, even though you added modern electronics. A slotted array has superior signal gain and FOV (azimuth and elevation) compared to a twist cassegrain. The J-10 uses a slotted array, as do most modern Chinese fighters, which is pretty average standard for the West.

Smaller aircraft has an inherent advantage when it comes to WVR. Its easier to eyeball a big jet than a small jet, and that alone can be decisive

The Chinese also knows far too well of Russian sensors and EW capability, at least that of the J-11 and Su-30MKK and could have easily factored that into the J-10's sensor suites. Many top Chinese pilots are old hands with Flankers, either flying on them and against them, so they know full well the capabilities and weaknesses of the aircraft.

In any case the showdown is now with the J-11B vs. the J-10. The J-11B should equalize to better the sensors and avionics of the J-10, since it practically has the same systems, and the radar is of the same level of technology (slotted planar array) only larger. The J-11B is lighter than the J-11, has more powerful engines, plus digital FBW to boot.

 

[crobato]

I have a hard time believing the kill ratio's in exercises show the true combat capabilities of a fighter, IF they are indeed true. There are allways ROE that are inteded to have a sertain result, that how you train for particular scenario's. So just because the PLAAF states that its first ever locally designed and built fighter gets 8:1 (or whatever) kill ratio's over one of the best fighters the russians have ever designed, doesent make it so IMO.

Lol. These exercises have started since the summer of 2003 when the J-10s hit IOC, and goes all the way up to now. Don't tell me that for all these years, involving multiple regiments of all three aircraft in all different regions, that the ROEs are going to be the same for every encounter.

And the J-10 not the first ever locally designed and built fighter.

The original J-12 (a daylight only light fighter) got the honor of this in 1966.

Then comes the J-8Is and the J-8IIs, which is practically a different fighter from the first, with only a 30 percent commonality. And then the JH-7 which is a strike jet.

Mate are you kidding me??????? You cant see the HUGE PR opportunity at having your first locally designed and built fighter be more capable than the russian design you bought, especially since you've been producing obsolete russian designs for 40 years.

Learn more about the PLAAF aircraft. Its not the first locally designed and built fighter not by far.

By having the J10 win the PLAF stating to the world and its own people "look how clever we are! the closest thing we've designed to a fighter before is a tractor and now our 1st gen attempt is better than a evolved 4th gen russian design to the tune of an 8:1 kill ratio". Your right i'm sure there was no bias toward the "local boys" in those exerscises, especially given the PRC expertise at propaganda and information manipulation. And you think the fact that the J11 is locally manufactured means there is no propaganda value in having the J10 kill it by stupid ratio's???? Please!!

Chengdu is not considered the premier fighter company in China, at least in the eyes of the CCP and the PLA. It is Shenyang, the ones who are making the J-11. It is Shenyang that built the J-5, the J-6, reverse engineered the J-7, designed and built the J-8I and J-8II. It is a city at the north and the east, not far from Beijing, and that already means regional bias. And when something is locally manufactured, yeah, that means there are people in high places that is going to have their financial stake on it. This interest can outweigh propaganda value. And it is not as if the PLAAF has not followed up with its belief---it did. It stopped ordering both J-11 and Su-30MKK.

And what makes you think the PLAAF or the CCP favors Chengdu just because it is the "local boy". The powers at be poured tons of money into Shenyang developing the J-11B, and guess who gets the WS-10A first. The J-11B not the J-10. Shenyang certainly thinks that this is not over.

Look i'm not saying the J10 is a bad platform or discounting the huge achievement the programe is for the PRC and the PLA. It is a truely remarkable acievement considering you were producing J6's not so long ago. However when i hear people stating that J10's regularly shoot down modern flankers in exercises with kill to loss ratio's of 5:1, 8:1 whatever, and therefore are more capable air superiority platforms i am slightly schepticle. Given the fact that this is PROC's first locally designed fighter, the huge propaganda value in its sucsess and the Chinese Communist parties history with information manipulation it is HIGHLY unrealistic to summise that the J10 is a more capable air superiority platform than the chinese flanker just because PLAAF's says so and has exercise kill ratio's to "proove" it.

First of all what the PLAAF has for Flankers are not even remotely MODERN.

Its a generic Su-27 that has been slightly improved. I laugh at some people even saying it has better BVR than a J-10. The standard Su-27 does not even have the R-77, uses the R-27 SARH. The J-10 has the ARH PL-12 as its standard. If you put an F-16 with AMRAAM against an F-15 with a Sparrow, guess who is going to win.

The PLAAF J-11s are said to be modified for the R-77 and there is credible evidence to that (Jane's). However the numbers of R-77 are suspect and would probably allocated to the Su-30MKKs as priority. So R-27 equipped Su-27s against PL-12 wielding planes, the Su-27s are going to get owned. The Su-27s have better chance at WVR due to the HMS and R-73 HOBS missiles.

As for the Su-30MKK, its not that much improved over an Su-27. It lacks TVC and canards. Its not like an MKI or an Su-35 which would be considered top end. An Su-30MKK is considered low end and is primarily a strike jet.

It is Shenyang's J-11B that is at least, what you can say has the semblence of being modern---MFDs, glass cockpit, slotted planar array with microprocessor based electronics with ARH missile support, digital FBW, etc,. The Chinese have spent a lot of R/D overhauling the aircraft---700kg lighter than the standard Su-27, with an airframe that boast 10,000 flight hours (superior to the alleged J-10's 4000 to 6000 hours), plus radar reduction measures on the front edges and intake lid of the aircraft in order to lower the RCS to 3m2. The WS-10A is rated roughly at 29,000lbs each (13200kg), which is better than the 27,500lbs used on the AL-31F/FN (as used on the J-11 and J-10).

Local boy? It looks like its the J-11B being prepped as China's premier fighter. The fighter now appears to be entering an IOC/small batch production set, and so there is going to be plenty of opportunities to test the J-11B against the J-10.

The J-11B will equalize to better the radar, sensor and avionics suite of the J-10. Even if the radar is equal technology, the J-11B's larger radar would make it superior (both J-10 and J-11B's radar are from the same firm). This will provide a more even match in terms of airframe and aerodynamics. Then further down the line, the J-11B will itself be tested against uprated J-10s (with the WS-10A this time). Testing with the JF-17s will provide another interesting factor on DAC.

So this is far from over and it is growing to become a full rivalry between Shenyang and Chengdu.

 

[crobato]

No in BVR China wouldnt stand a chance against Russia's 30's

And how. China knows more about the R-77 than what Russia knows about the PL-12. China has both R-77 and PL-12 to compare, study and evaluate, and would have known far too well to counter the R-77.

In dogfight sure it could have defeat Su-30 but dogfight is mostly about the pilot , so its not certain that J-10 is better.
Looking at the specifications overall J-10 is quite impresive, but if i had to choose i would put my money on the Su-30 still , that test didn't mean anything.

Actually the Su-30 stands a better chance at WVR due to the R-73 vs. the PL-8.

Another thing that discounts the "local boy favoritism" theory. In one of the biggest DACT exercises last year, the J-10s were in fact, representing Blue Army. As Blue Flag aggressors, they are meant to emulate ROCAF air force, as the Mirage 2000 and F-16s are more electronically closer to the J-10, if not better. The fact the Flankers got owned is very disconcerting for the PLAAF at least, since they threw one of their best J-11 regiments facing Taiwan against Blue Flag force.

 

[Schumacher]

But, but, but I still absolutely refuse to believe J-10 beat Su27/30 !

Amazing many know next to nothing abt the details of the aircraft involved yet have such strong opinions.
People, I think most on this forum are much more interested in the knowledge if any you have to share rather than simply stating your opinions based on what you like or don't like to believe.

 

[XaNDeR]

Yes it is highly unlikely that J-10 would stand a chance in a dogfight vs Su-30

 

[crobato]

It depends if you are beating at what level. The J-11 and the Su-30MKK are not that modern in the first place. One comment I got from a Chinese report is how many friggin switches you have to turn on in the Su-27 before you can even launch a missile. Definitely not user friendly.

J-10 against the much more modern J-11B is going to be on much more even odds. That will be more interesting to see.

Whatever your opinions are, it does not matter a single bit to the PLAAF. They have already long concluded that the generic J-11 and the Su-30MKK do not meet their requirements for future air warfare. Common sense tells you they're right. Want to put that up against a modern AESA equipped F-15? The Alaskan F-15s are being relocated to Kadena AFB as a matter of fact.

This does not comment that in general the Flanker is inferior to the J-10. Hardly. This is only Round One and Two. Round 3 will feature the modernized J-11B against the J-10. Hopefully we even get to see Russian prototypes of Su-30 and Su-35 go up against the J-10 in Peace Mission 2007. Anything better than a generic Su-27 or something made from it.

Also, PLAN's interest on the Su-33 or navalized J-11 shows the faith they have on the type at least for range and payload delivery.

 

[crobato]

Yes it is highly unlikely that J-10 would stand a chance in a dogfight vs Su-30

That's not what I get. Even PLAAF Aggressor pilots have nailed J-11s from J-7s. Shows you what experience and knowing the aircraft's weak spots can do.

If you have an Su-30MKI fighter, you definitely stand a much better chance against a J-10. TVC, much more modern phase array radar, etc,.

Without TVC, the Su-30 or Su-27 is hobbled by its slower roll rate, instant turn rate and transient performance. It will have its best chance if the pilot uses HMS to lock on to the J-10, if the J-10 did not use its own HMS first to lock on to the Su-30. In that case, the J-10 actually has a much better chance to do it because HMS depends so much on the visual, and being bigger makes you easier to spot and be locked on.

Another is that the Su-27/30MKK's radar antenna is not in gimballing servos whereas the J-10's is. This mean the J-10's radar will have a much greater field of view and that's going to be critical in a dogfight.

Finally, that J-10 pilots may have been J-11/Su-30 pilots once also gives the J-10 a pilot advantage. The last two deployments of J-10s have been in divisions that had J-11s and Su-30s (2nd and 3rd Division).

 

[Schumacher]

.............
Whatever your opinions are, it does not matter a single bit to the PLAAF. They have already long concluded that the generic J-11 and the Su-30MKK do not meet their requirements for future air warfare. Common sense tells you they're right. ........

For many here, common sense goes out the door when it's against what they LIKE to believe.

 

[wp2000]

Besides all the technical analysis on J10 and Su27sk/Su30MKK, the fact is:

J10 is being produced at a faster rate, whereas China has stopped buying Flankers from Russia except the 2 Su33 since 2003. Even the local version of Su27(J11B) production is running at a slow pace.

China's defence budget is being increased dramatically every year, yet no more Flanker purchases.

IMHO, J10 is a modern fighter that is close to F16 Block50 (still inferior though). Currently it's certainly not on par with the 4.5 Gen fighters like EF2000.

 

[wp2000]

In regard of China favoring J10, I think many people don't know that PLAAF, as most countries' airforce, love better and proven equipments (usually foreign ones). They once openly stated to the chinese manufacturer that only a F22 class chinese fighter would satisfy them. PLAAF has always been tagged as traitors by chinese military fans because of their obvious favorism towards Russian systems, and their sometimes exceptionally high requirements against domestic products.

I guess Indian forumers have similar feelings. In fact, some chinese fans really envy Indian Airforce's support to LCA.

Think about it, LCA only has done 700+ test flights NOW; yet the Limited Serial Production was started in 2004/5 and 20 more LCAs have been ordered already. Plus the IA officials are constantly stating LCA will be the back bone of Indian Airforce.

J10 never enjoyed such support from PLAAF until the end of 2004 after quite a few excercises were held for J10 against other planes.

 

[meh]

"As for datalink, the Y-8 AEWs should be equipping PAF earlier than the Erieye."

So are you saying that the Y-8 will be in service before the saab 2000 system? I thought that it was still under development stages.

 

[tphuang]

No, J-10 cannot super-cruise, since both AL-31FN and WS-10A were not designed to super-cruise at the first place. I believe with current technology it is improbable for a single engine aircraft to achieve super-cruise.

with improved engine and aerodynamics, J-10 will super cruise

So are you saying that the Y-8 will be in service before the saab 2000 system? I thought that it was still under development stages.

I don't know what you would call development stage, there is a prototype that's been testing for a while now. If PAF hasn't finalized and check off on the requirements, that's something it needs to get to, right?

believe it yet I don't understand it. The Sukhoi MKK is one of the best fighter airplanes the Russians produce. And it wasn't downgraded when it was sold to China. So how could an indeginous Chinese fighter defeat one of Russia's best? How do you know they just don't favor the J-10? If the J-10 could really defeat a Sukhoi 30 MKK or Su-27 WOW! What about in BVR combat. There I think the Sukhoi would have a better chance. It probobly has a better radar/electronics. Don't you think? Overall I think the J-10 could beat the Sukhois in a dogfight only.

it's simply just too difficult for mkk to defeat J-10 in either BVR or WVR. If you actually ever examined the electronics, you would see J-10's major advantage is in avionics.

I understood the J-10 was available in 3 models, budget version with chinese avionics and radar, which they were hoping to market for about $15 mil or so. An intermediate model with russian gear for about $20 mil, and one with western gear for $25 mil or so. Mind you its been a while since I read that, and I can't remember where.

there is no indication that they want to export J-10 anytime soon? Why would they? there is JF-17 for that.

No in BVR China wouldnt stand a chance against Russia's 30's

In dogfight sure it could have defeat Su-30 but dogfight is mostly about the pilot , so its not certain that J-10 is better.
Looking at the specifications overall J-10 is quite impresive, but if i had to choose i would put my money on the Su-30 still , that test didn't mean anything.

again, do you have a clue about the avionics on J-10 vs su-30? Do you know the RCS and such? Have you read what the test pilots said about the the two fighters?

I have a hard time believing the kill ratio's in exercises show the true combat capabilities of a fighter, IF they are indeed true. There are allways ROE that are inteded to have a sertain result, that how you train for particular scenario's. So just because the PLAAF states that its first ever locally designed and built fighter gets 8:1 (or whatever) kill ratio's over one of the best fighters the russians have ever designed, doesent make it so IMO.

mkk is one of the best fighters? really. it could easily be the most overrated fighter they've produced too.

Mate are you kidding me??????? You cant see the HUGE PR opportunity at having your first locally designed and built fighter be more capable than the russian design you bought, especially since you've been producing obsolete russian designs for 40 years. By having the J10 win the PLAF stating to the world and its own people "look how clever we are! the closest thing we've designed to a fighter before is a tractor and now our 1st gen attempt is better than a evolved 4th gen russian design to the tune of an 8:1 kill ratio". Your right i'm sure there was no bias toward the "local boys" in those exerscises, especially given the PRC expertise at propaganda and information manipulation. And you think the fact that the J11 is locally manufactured means there is no propaganda value in having the J10 kill it by stupid ratio's???? Please!!

As for J-10 favoured J-11? Why would they? J-11 is SAC's baby. J-10 is CAC's baby. SAC was always the big boy in AVIC1 until J-10 came along. After J-10 trouncing flankers, it was bad news for SAC. They lost orders. They had to spend extra time on improving J-11B before coming out with one with better avionics, lower RCS and reduce weight.

Why would they do promotion? They are not trying to export J-10. They are not even bringing it to peace mission 2007. They are doing this as a competition to see whether SAC or CAC get more orders.

 

[crobato]

believe it yet I don't understand it. The Sukhoi MKK is one of the best fighter airplanes the Russians produce. And it wasn't downgraded when it was sold to China. So how could an indeginous Chinese fighter defeat one of Russia's best? How do you know they just don't favor the J-10? If the J-10 could really defeat a Sukhoi 30 MKK or Su-27 WOW! What about in BVR combat. There I think the Sukhoi would have a better chance. It probobly has a better radar/electronics. Don't you think? Overall I think the J-10 could beat the Sukhois in a dogfight only.

I can't believe someone actually said this. Someone really needs to learn more about Flankers in general, how each model differs and their general technological levels.

 

[XaNDeR]

I can't believe someone actually said this. Someone really needs to learn more about Flankers in general, how each model differs and their general technological levels.

We don't know much about Flanker versions actualy , but if you care to explain we will be glad to listen

 

[f-22fan12]

Yes it is highly unlikely that J-10 would stand a chance in a dogfight vs Su-30

I think so too. The Sukhoi 30MKK could have a good chance at the J-10 with equal pilots.

 

[Waylander]

Maybe some people here should to listen to the people here who seem to know the topic and back up their clames.

Constantly stating ones own opinion (Or wish) in oneliners doesn't look good compared to the very interesting posts of others here...

I can just say that I find it very interesting what people like crobato, wp2000 or tphuang have to say and the insights into PLAAF they give to us.

 

[f-22fan12]

I can't believe someone actually said this. Someone really needs to learn more about Flankers in general, how each model differs and their general technological levels.

I know about Sukhoi models. The best of them are the Su-30 MKI's (Indian) and MKM's (Malaysian) . Both have canards, thrust vectoring, and western avionics. That makes them the TOP planes the Russians produce. The Su-35's have Thrust vectoring and canards but no western avionics. The Sukhoi 30MKK is not the best, yet it is a good plane.

 

[ever4244]

Thought currently Flanker serve in PLAF is SK (export type ,groud attack capability locked, radar and avionics sys handicaped) and 30MKK (mainly improved for ground attack ) su 30Mk2 and Mk3 for China are variety of mkk favoured by PLAN, which can embody KH-31A and jdam like bomb .

So among China s flanker virtually only su-27sk are intended to air superiority and yet it s capability was deliberately unabled .That why i m not surprised to see J-10 can easily beat them, however when it comes to J 11B or the 27U or SM(can t remember clearly) russian use themselves,J-10 will be in disadvantages. Two engine always means larger radar , higher Trust/Weight, longer range, higher speed,larger capability. That s means a lot in beyond vision engagement.So is not likely for a F-16 beat a F-15 in a one on one combat.however, I still think F16 is better for it s efficient/price ratio is much higher. The same, J 10 is cheaper , handy , can do a lot dirty job like patrol ,ground attack , pull out AA missle base```` plus: two engine is almost square times more expensive to support than one.

some photo http://idao.bokee.com/3310708.html


BTW:China s SU-30MKK is different with India s MKI or MKI2, the later has N一011M radar, Vector trust`````maybe india want to wrap it to an all-round super-invincible fighter-bomber. but Chinese SU-30 s air combat capability is no better than SU-27 and well behind su-27SM for russian . So that s why we need J-11B , and the imported SU-27 family is too "fruitful" to logistic surpport .

 

[Thery]

with improved engine and aerodynamics, J-10 will super cruise

Well you are really optimistic. Do you understand such changes are equivalent as designing a whole new plane and engine?

 

[T-95]

Well you are really optimistic. Do you understand such changes are equivalent as designing a whole new plane and engine?

Nope, the engine yes but aerodynamics no. The areodynamics can just be adjusted a little. And didn't you hear about the Super J-10? It has two engines can super cruise incorporates stealth tech and has TVC. The Chinese were considering it for a while as cheaper alternative because they would not have to design a whole new plane but I think they left it in favor of the J-XX.