NATO v Warsaw pact troop levels

[Totoro]

Does anyone have any sources to link me to, with info on European NATO forces during the Cold war, comapared to ones of the Warsaw pact? I'm looking for at least decade by decade comparisons, though year by year would be perfect. Stuff like: how many elite troops were stationed where, how many conscripts, how many tanks of this and that model, how many artillery pieces of various models, planes, ships, etc. No such thing as too much detail.

Thank you.

 

[XaNDeR]

If you want how many , then there is no accurate thing , see you have to consider other aspects not only size and numbers , with shere size and numbers USSR was much bigger , but then came training , tehnology , support , that which the west was far ahead.

 

[swerve]

If you want how many , then there is no accurate thing , see you have to consider other aspects not only size and numbers , with shere size and numbers USSR was much bigger , but then came training , tehnology , support , that which the west was far ahead.

Actually, the Warsaw Pact never had superiority in raw numbers of troops. Potentially had superior numbers in mobilisable troops, & far more tanks & artillery, but the peacetime establishment was always outnumbered by NATO in manpower. More WP divisions, but the divisions were smaller, the majority of them were maintained at low manning levels, needing reserves to bring them up to strength, & a higher proportion of troop numbers were in divisions.

 

[Totoro]

Yes, yes, so please swerve can you offer some links to established sources which clearly show those numbers? Doesn't matter which time period - just anything from the Cold war.

 

[swerve]

Yes, yes, so please swerve can you offer some links to established sources which clearly show those numbers? Doesn't matter which time period - just anything from the Cold war.

My main sources for the numbers are various issues of The Military Balance from 1977 onwards, & various NATO & US DoD publications of the 1970s & 1980s, as reported at the time, or as consulted by me in the IISS library in London. All print (pre-internet, mostly), so I can't give you links. You may be able to find them in libraries. I have some at home, & I don't mind extracting some figures from them, but I'm not going to go through them year by year. Give me a couple of years you're particularly interested in, & any specific figures you want (not too many, mind!), & I'll post them. I assume you want total ground forces & overall armed forces.

CFE treaty totals are available online, but I'm not sure how far back. Found some in the past with Google, but I haven't saved a link.

 

[kato]

CFE treaty totals are available online, but I'm not sure how far back.

'92/'93 if you look hard.

The UN Arms Register, which starts in 1992, might also be worth a look, though more for post-Cold-War levels.

 

[Totoro]

Well, thanks a lot for the offer to help. I really can't be picky so whatever you can find is good. I would need some data showing progression of force levels through the course of the cold war. So lets say - data from mid 50s, mid 60s, mid70s and mid80s. Of course, since beggers can't be choosers, even any one of those would be appreciated. If possible, broken down by geography - how much in Eastern germany, Czech republic, Poland (most important) and how much in Russia.

As for the details - I understand those might not be available... But, lets say - just general troop numbers in Europe, number of combat airplanes, number of tanks, SAMs, artillery pieces. Surface ships not needed but numbers of submarines escape me (especially stuff like whiskey class and other diesels) - i can find how many russians produced over the whole course of a production run, but i can't get a good figure of how many were commisioned at one time.

 

[swerve]

Well, thanks a lot for the offer to help. I really can't be picky so whatever you can find is good. I would need some data showing progression of force levels through the course of the cold war. So lets say - data from mid 50s, mid 60s, mid70s and mid80s. Of course, since beggers can't be choosers, even any one of those would be appreciated. If possible, broken down by geography - how much in Eastern germany, Czech republic, Poland (most important) and how much in Russia.

As for the details - I understand those might not be available... But, lets say - just general troop numbers in Europe, number of combat airplanes, number of tanks, SAMs, artillery pieces. Surface ships not needed but numbers of submarines escape me (especially stuff like whiskey class and other diesels) - i can find how many russians produced over the whole course of a production run, but i can't get a good figure of how many were commisioned at one time.

OK. May not be able to do it for a few days. Other things . . . Also, the estimates are mostly contemporary (there are some retrospective), & therefore aren't 100% reliable. The WP wasn't giving out such information. I'll indicate the nature of the number, e.g. declared, retrospective estimate, or contemporary estimate.

 

[Totoro]

Thank you, once again. So... I must say I'm extremely surprised this data is unavailable and so speculative. Seriously, there is no way to get even remotely accurate data on this, even if I would pay a professional researcher to look into it? I mean, we're talking about data that's 20-60 years old. Even right after ww2, Korea, Vietnam, Arab-Israeli wars there was more exact data on such things. How come neither side wants to disclose old info on the cold war?

 

[XaNDeR]

Here is the order of battle of both NATO and warsaw pact

NATO - http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/nato/oob1989.html

warsaw - http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/nato/warsawpact.html

I hope that helps you abit

 

[XaNDeR]

Seems that Totoro didn't post anything for 1 week , so this is meaningless to him , oh well

 

[oskarm]

Here is the order of battle of both NATO and warsaw pact

NATO - http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/nato/oob1989.html

warsaw - http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/nato/warsawpact.html

I hope that helps you abit

I will not help him becouse data for WP forces are wrong (the same stands for Military Balance). The same as for NATO there were no standard TO&Es for WP countries. Please notice that Military Balance publications are only estimates witch are very incorrect and have no cover in published informations and documents after 1989.

The most accurate data about Polish Peoples Army you can find here: http://www.serwis-militarny.net/forum/list.php?f=1 but it's in Polish and you need registration.

 

[Totoro]

Thanks Xander, for the effort. Also, thanks Oskarm for your input, it does seem a bit off, what was posted. Swerve, if you're still following this thread, you can chime in anytime.

 

[kato]

Don't know if i should mention another Forum, but they're pretty far with compiling NATO and WP OOBs for 1989 (units, some w/ equipment ToE) over on Tanknet.

 

[XaNDeR]

Here I found some info , I have to write it down though
Hope this is what you wanted..

USSR Ground forces , 1990

Tank Divisions : 46
Motorized Rifle Divisions :142
Artillery Divisions : 19

Tanks 53,000
T-80/-U/UD/UM 4,000
T-72L/-M 10,000
T-64A/-B 9,700
T-62 11,300
T-54/-55 19,000


Armored Fighting Vehicles 86,000~
BTR-50 P/ -60P/ -70/ -80/ -152 35,500+
BMP-1/-2/-3 24,000+
BMD (AB) 3,000
BRDM-2 3,500
BTR-40P
BTR-40
BRM-1(K)
BRDM-1
BMP-R

Self-Propelled Artillery 9,000~
2P 406mm
2S4 240mm M1975
Pion 2S7 203mm 347
MSTA-S 2S19 152mm 20
Giatsint-S 2S5 152mm 507
Dana 152mm 108
Acatsia 2S3 152mm M1973 2,325~
Gvozdika 2S1 122mm M1974 2,751 ~
2 S23 120mm


Towed Artillery 33,000~
B-4M 203mm (478)
M-1937 152mm (1,693)
MSTA-B 2A65 152mm
M-1943 152mm
D-1 152mm
D-20 152mm (1,700)
ML-20 152mm
Giatsint-B 2A36 152mm 1,007~
M-46 130mm
2A45 125mm
M-30 122mm M1938 1,200~
D-74 122mm
D-30 122mm 3,050~
2A18 122mm
T-12/-12A/M-55 100mm
2A29 100mm
2A19 100mm
BS-3 100mm

Artillery Rocket 8,000~
No Info on separate unit
At least 1/3 of them are M-1976


Anti-Aircraft Guns 12,000 ~
2S6M Tunguska
KS-12
KS-18
KS-19
KS-30
M1939
S-60
ZPU-1
ZPU-2
ZPU-4
ZU-23
ZSU-23-4
ZSU-57


Air Defense Missile systems 50.000~
Antey-2500
SA-21 Mysk
SA-20 Triumf
SA-19 GRISOM 130
SA-18 GROUSE
SA-17 GRIZZLY
SA-16 GIMLET 3,500
SA-15 GAUNTLET 20
SA-14 GREMLIN 2,500
SA-13 GOPHER 860
SA-12 GLADIATOR 70
SA-11 GADFLY 300
SA-10 GRUMBLE
SA-9 GASKIN 430
SA-8 GECKO 950
SA-7 GRAIL 18,500
SA-6 GAINFUL 850
SA-5 GAMMON
SA-4 A/B GANEF 1,350
SA-3 GOA
SA-2 GUIDELINE
SA-1 GUILD

Helicopters 6,010~
Mi-1 Hare
Mi-2 Hoplite 600
Mi-4 Hound
Mi-6 Hook 450
Mi-8 Hip 1,620
Mi-10 Hip 10
Mi-14 Haze
Mi-17 Hip H 290
Mi-24 Hind 1,420
Mi-25 Hind D
Mi-26 Halo
etc.

The blank ones are unknown.

 

[Totoro]

Thanks, Xander. MAy I ask from which publication (which issue) are those figures from?

How come its harder to find figures for strength levels in the beginning of the cold war, which is getting to be ancient history now and less relevant to today's defences, than it is for 1990 levels, which are still somewhat fresh and relevant?

 

[XaNDeR]

Thanks, Xander. MAy I ask from which publication (which issue) are those figures from?

How come its harder to find figures for strength levels in the beginning of the cold war, which is getting to be ancient history now and less relevant to today's defences, than it is for 1990 levels, which are still somewhat fresh and relevant?

Figgures are from CFE , during cold war neither side wanted the other to know the exact numbers of weapons they had.