The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
as were back on the Brunei light FFG how have other navies added ships which were meant for other countries i am thinking of the KIDDs those corvette's meant for Iraqi which the Itaiens took in the servise.

i still feel they would be very useful in the MED their range is too bad as far as i can see 1,500nm is quite respectable for a ship of that size it simare to the T21 and is a very robust hull and will help keep numbers up.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I don't see these ships as being useful to the RN.
I tend to agree with this, right platform matters and this wouldn't appear to be the right platform.

We need ships with greater range & endurance, for open oceans, & if we're going to be in Iraq for long enough to need ships specialised for local conditions, I'd say it's time to get a new government, not new ships.
Actually I was thinking the corvettes are too big, not too small. I think the case is there for a mothership for the duties performed by the Royal Navy in places like the Persian Gulf, regardless of how long the Iraq conflict itself lasts. The Royal Navy pretty much was doing the same thing in the Persian Gulf throughout the 90s, just like the Caribbean Sea for centuries, it isn't like what the Royal Navy is doing in the Gulf started in 2003.

Going back in history, the British were among the first to master the use of small, well armed deployable boats from blue water ships as a major element in power projection in littorals. Something most Americans probably don't even realize, it was the combination of marine landing in concert with a small deployable boat force able to move up a river that allowed the British to burn Washington DC down during the War of 1812. It isn't like the need for small, well armed boats is something new, or even unique to modern times.

It is interesting that in the drive up to Baghdad, the USMC lessons learned lists the lack of mobile, supplied riverene force supporting the drive would have simplified many of the problems that occurred in the fighting for bridges, and in the future may be required to insure the capture of critical bridges in a future conflict. While not a true littoral mission per se, it is noteworthy that in war, usually the small things like "armed boats" compared to "warships" are overlooked until the evidence appears of their absolute necessity to insure success.

The same capability is obvious today as 70% of the world's population is coastal, and virtually all the energy in the world is dependent upon maritime trade, in and out of busy littorals (including rivers no less). Any country not developing a future strategy that accounts for this, and doesn't include small, fast, manned surface platforms is asking for trouble. The Royal Navy should know this well, considering the events of March are probably still fresh in their mind.

It has been pointed out in a number of places that the presence of the helicopter would have completely prevented the hostage event in March, but it is also true a small anti-tank style guided missile system on a boat would have completely changed that scenario as well. It is becoming clear in certain areas that the manned 11 meter RHIB isn't enough firepower to deter a threat (while the 11 meter unmanned vehicles with weapons weight instead of manned weight is a nice alternative), and a slightly larger manned platform for MSO with more teeth may well be required.

during the refit which finished last year, Ark Royal was modified in the direction you suggest, though she didn't receive all your changes. The RN says "5 days notice" for amphibious ops, she has a small marine detachment permanently based, & can carry up to 400.
swerve, interesting you bring that up, during my business trip last week I got into an extended (what I call a 10 drink minimum) conversation with a few RN gentleman involved in the Ark Royal refit. It is interesting in the way they described the refit, pointing out that while the Invincible class is an inherently flexible platform in operational theory, the original design of the Invincible class was not inherently flexible for modification of purpose. It was built as an aviation platform specifically, and a lot of the original design detail went into the optimization of that purpose. Those original designs are one reason why for even a small aviation ship, it was incredibly efficient.

Throughout the refit a premium was placed on increasing the base flexibility in the Ark Royal design, to allow for the inherent flexibility of the platform in situations like an amphibious assault. There were some major lessons learned in the Ark Royal refit that will directly affect the CVF design to insure flexibility and adaptation to other potential mission profiles potentially called upon the CVF platform in the future.

Those 'few ideas' I discussed are not exclusively mine, they are a derivative of a proposed Royal Navy concept called the "A Littoral Sea Control System." This is a theory involving a ship similar to a Fort Victoria class, designed for logistical support, command and control, and deployment of 10 manned surface platforms, 4 unmanned surface platforms, 4 unmanned undersea platforms, 4 small unmanned aviation platforms (Scan Eagle sized), and 4 helicopters. It would have a crew somewhere around 400, although much of that crew would for the deployable platform roles or a civilian logistical role. The idea is to relieve the roles recently played by the Albion class in Iraq as a forward littoral support platform, and provide a similar role to that of the HMS Ocean in sea control, except instead of aviation platforms, it would utilize manned surface platforms for MSO and MIW. A core purpose would be to act as a Mine Warfare command ship in wartime.

The theory is still early in development, and like many theories may not go anywhere, but I found the discussion of it, and other theories on how the Royal Navy can increase capability in an evolving budget crunched Royal Navy very interesting.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Galrahn,

interesting stuff. Some of this could be done immediately, with the purchase of a few suitable off the shelf boats & UAVs, e.g. the Swedish CB90 in appropriate configurations, the Schiebel S100 or Skeldar 150, & some small UAVs such as the Scan Eagle which could be recovered with nets, all to be operated off current ships. The old LSLs could do it, if we'd kept 'em, but only Sir Bedivere is left, IIRC.

BTW, I see that the RN has invited offers for the supply of rotary-wing UAVs.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
BTW, I see that the RN has invited offers for the supply of rotary-wing UAVs.
I saw that too, the selection will be very interesting. Does anyone know if the Type 45 has hanger space allowance for rotary UAVs? I don't recall seeing any information regarding specific type of UAV systems for the Type 45, although I remember reading somewhere the Type 45 would support UAVs.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I saw that too, the selection will be very interesting. Does anyone know if the Type 45 has hanger space allowance for rotary UAVs? I don't recall seeing any information regarding specific type of UAV systems for the Type 45, although I remember reading somewhere the Type 45 would support UAVs.
I imagine it would depend on which size.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
as were back on the Brunei light FFG how have other navies added ships which were meant for other countries i am thinking of the KIDDs those corvette's meant for Iraqi which the Itaiens took in the servise.

i still feel they would be very useful in the MED their range is too bad as far as i can see 1,500nm is quite respectable for a ship of that size it simare to the T21 and is a very robust hull and will help keep numbers up.

Hate to pick holes, but....

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/

The ships are capable of 5,000 Nm @ 12 Kts, according to the blurb.


Getting back to the discussion, personally, I DO see these ships as being a suitable addition to compliment any plans the RN has for current / future requirements, after all I believe the hull design & some of the equipment fitted was a concept originally based on the Type 23 frigate design.


In another point, I've read the comments that have been quoted above from our fine, respected UK Broadsheets. However, I can't say I've personally seen ANYTHING to back up their printed statements, other than what the media has peddling (which was originally "reported" in the Glasgow Evening Times & was on discussed on Scottish TV News, about a week ago ).

After all, wouldn't some these findings from the legal case & the fact that BAE are alleged to have "won", been highly publicised in a press release from the company ??

...& as for the price of these vessels, £600M, that's wot they may have cost to build, but do you think that's wot they will get for them, after sitting idle for the last 2 years ?

Also, £600M - the price of a Type-45 ?? (should it not be more ?)

3 capable vessels that could integrate relatively easily into the RN fleet, for the price of 1 Type-45 - No waiting, just transfer the cash, minimum work-up of say 6 months to 1 year, to RN proof the ships for the crews / for them to be familarised & they'd be ready to go.

I bet that there are a few bean counters in Whitehall looking at the prospect, just to "evaluate" the idea...

I whole heartedly agree with other comments that have been made WRT the Invincibles, they should be retained & converted into Helo carriers, or even into a Hospital ship to compliment HMS Argus.


Finally, does anyone know when HMS Daring is due to go on sea trials?



Your comments please

Systems Adict
 

Super Nimrod

New Member
One of the drawbacks of these ships is apparently their purely tropical spec. Everything the RN operates must be capable of operating in the North and South atlantic.These ships apparently don't even have any real heating system to speak of !!
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Hate to pick holes, but....

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/

The ships are capable of 5,000 Nm @ 12 Kts, according to the blurb.
HMS Clyde will do 7800 NM @ 12 knots, despite being smaller. And is much cheaper both to buy and run. :D

Getting back to the discussion, personally, I DO see these ships as being a suitable addition to compliment any plans the RN has for current / future requirements, after all I believe the hull design & some of the equipment fitted was a concept originally based on the Type 23 frigate design.
But half the size of a Type 23, & with half the range. A Duke will do 7800 sea miles @ 15 knots.

Seriously, what role do you see them filling? They're useless to the RN as OPVs, because they need too much crew (twice as much as Clyde)& don't have the seakeeping or endurance (it ain't just how far, it's also how much time) for the sort of extended patrols that the RN does. They don't fit in as warfighting ships, because they'd be in place of larger, more capable ships with much greater range & endurance (yet again - and that's a prime requirement). They're local theatre ships, built for tropical seas. Fine ships for many navies, but not the RN. Square pegs for round holes.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Point taken, Iraq should buy them to equip their fledgling Navy to defend Oil & Gas down stream assets. A nice counter to Iran to help deter any unlawful entries.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Point taken, Iraq should buy them to equip their fledgling Navy to defend Oil & Gas down stream assets. A nice counter to Iran to help deter any unlawful entries.
Iraq only has a short coastline, most of their navy's role is riverine patrol and marines to protect the oil installations. Besides, they just ordered FACs/small OPVs from Fincantieri shipyards.
A larger FFL might make sense later on, not right now. Its CIWS should also be enhanced. In the Persian Gulf VLS Seawolf isn't enough. Add at least a Goalkeeper or a RAM.

cheers

PS : it's true that in the '80s Iraq ordered 4 Lupo FFGs (2500t) but it was more a prestige deal than something really useful for the country.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Brazil is without a carrier Foch is in refit as its Cats are broken its got only 2 qualified carrier pilots in unarmed skyhawks [they might have sidewinders] but are radarless and their is no siqnals that their are any upgrades imminent for the skyhawks and only 4 are air worthy
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71186
and the rest of the Brazilian fleet is quite dated compared with Chile.

if the RN don't keep invinsable[i would like them to keep it] would Canada consider taking it as their BHS an LPH on the cheap like their ocean going SSK on the cheap:D ;) :vamp

again if looking at Europe the Dutch would be a good candidate [dutch rm in cold war days was part of 3Codo two LPD 4 advanced AAW vessels and overseas territories and a long history with the RN] except for their government and their defense slashing ways http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/...idsplaatsen_in

i personally feel that of the harrier carriers [not including cavor]the invinsables are the best suited to F35 use as they are the largest and have two big lifts which are well place on deck and has the largest skiijump in degrees [don't know how it compares with cavor] and internal lifts for seakeeping
Very interesting thanks. I still have in mind pictures of Skyhawks taking off from the Foch (a few years ago) so I didn't know that there were only 4 operational left and that the catapults were out of order.
The Foch/Sao Paulo was built in the late '50s and delivered in the early '60s. At this point I would suggest to replace it with the Invincible in 5-10 years' time when it becomes available. May be with a few Harriers as the F35s arrive ;)

cheers
 

Padfoot

New Member
Hopefully some good news. It seems that Gordon Brown will announce this week the contract for the construction for two new "Super Carriers" for the Royal Navy. :D

From the Scotsman newspaper:

defence insiders last night revealed that Brown was determined to sign off the contract and trigger the start of building work before MPs break for their summer holiday at the end of this month. He is believed to have highlighted the deal bringing economic benefits to workers in his own "back yard" as a key "statement of intent" during his first 100 days in Downing Street.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1102642007
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Hooray:D wasn't expecting this till November but the cynics will say it isn't done till the bloody things signed and constructions started:vamp
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
The Foch/Sao Paulo was built in the late '50s and delivered in the early '60s. At this point I would suggest to replace it with the Invincible in 5-10 years' time when it becomes available. May be with a few Harriers as the F35s arrive ;)

cheers
AFAIK the RAF is worrying about how to keep its Harriers flying until the F-35s arrive. They're not likely to have enough airframe hours left to be worth buying.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Accroding to the UK times 30bn worth of equipment will be signed off, including the two carriers, six 45's and the FRES programme for the army. Good news, but I would like to have seen a total of eight 45's confirmed!
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Good news, but I would like to have seen a total of eight 45's confirmed!
Hmm, I think they probably decided the project was just getting too expensive. Yes, in an ideal world 8 would have been much better. It just means the Type-45 will have to be reserved for escorting big ships like the carriers.

After all, it's not a multi-mission ship that can work by itself anyway.

Fingers crossed on an announcement this week!
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Hmm, I think they probably decided the project was just getting too expensive. Yes, in an ideal world 8 would have been much better. It just means the Type-45 will have to be reserved for escorting big ships like the carriers.

After all, it's not a multi-mission ship that can work by itself anyway.

Fingers crossed on an announcement this week!
the a second batch of t45 can be ordered later in a couple of years. perhaps start with an intital batch 6 and order a second batch when diamond is finished. because most of the destroyers and frigate[the only ones i can think of which were not built in batches of three have been the t21, t12-t14 all though i may be wrong] have been built in batches of three

well they should be very good at escorting the carriers and the Amfibs and using them for showing the flag and anti piracy seems a bit of waste of a dedicated AAW vessel

swerve could the harriers or the AV-8 be zero timed to be salable when the F35B come on line

this is the story which ricksavage was talking about
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article2080285.ece
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...

swerve could the harriers or the AV-8 be zero timed to be salable when the F35B come on line
...
Dunno for sure, but I have a feeling that it'd be a major & very expensive rebuild. The GR9 is already a substantial rebuild, & some of GR9s will be GR7s which had been upgraded from GR5s. A lot of the USMC Harriers have also been upgraded substantially once.
 
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