F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

[gf0012-aust]

. it can only be detected by a powerful radar with atlest 250 MW such as an AWAC but only from a distence of 20 km and not more then that..
The russian infra-red guided short range air-to-air missile R-74ME will aquire the F-22 at less then 8 km.

the f-22 has better LO signature management than the F-117, and yet Saudi military ATC's were unable to pick them (F-117) up WVR - and even on short finals. (Bandits over Bagdhad)

if you are going to make statements such as above, then its encumbent upon you to provide sources or validate your own background so as to provide a sense of competency. Otherwise, some of the people with demonstrated competencies are very likely to challenge you.

 

[yess]

"the Serb air defenses found that they could detect F-117s with their radars operating on unusually long wavelengths. This made them visible on radar screens for short times."
and what does this tell you... that even an outdated SA-3 which uses radio command guidance can shoot down a stealth plane!

a sniper out in a bushy field is totally undetectable just like any other stealth in a BVR enviroment but if a sniper makes a follish mistake by making any movemnet he can be tracked down just like stealth plane by pulling tight turns..

i am just gona add one more thing here.. the F-22 must turn off its radar and use data from its wingman inorder to be 100% stealty..

 

[gf0012-aust]

"the Serb air defenses found that they could detect F-117s with their radars operating on unusually long wavelengths. This made them visible on radar screens for short times."
and what does this tell you... that even an outdated SA-3 which uses radio command guidance can shoot down a stealth plane!..

Absolute rot. The serbs shot down the F-117 because the pilot used the same preplanned route 4 days running, he was box shot. They used good old HUMINT and common sense whereas the pilot did not.

a sniper out in a bushy field is totally undetectable just like any other stealth in a BVR enviroment but if a sniper makes a follish mistake by making any movemnet he can be tracked down just like stealth plane by pulling tight turns..

Except F-117's never flew missions using the profile you talk about. F-117's flew waypoint missions - and the F-117 over serbia was on a waypoint path - he wasn't "pulling tight turns"

i am just gona add one more thing here.. the F-22 must turn off its radar and use data from its wingman inorder to be 100% stealty..

the SOP of the F-117 is nothing like what you have just stated - which means that you are:

1) making it up
2) have no idea about the subject you are commenting on.

If you insist on making things up just to have a presence on the forum, you will be shortlived.

Think before posting again - my patience is getting tested.

 

[yess]

it does not matter if the pilot used the same preplanned route or not? what matters is the missile was able to lock on to a stealth plane!

plez take a look at this website.. maybe this will help you what i am trying to say...
f22totalairwar.de/F-22_Total_Air_War_Stealth_Radar_Cross_Section_RCS.

with all due respect..

 

[gf0012-aust]

it does not matter if the pilot used the same preplanned route or not? what matters is the missile was able to lock on to a stealth plane!

plez take a look at this website.. maybe this will help you what i am trying to say...
f22totalairwar.de/F-22_Total_Air_War_Stealth_Radar_Cross_Section_RCS.

with all due respect..

Err, yes it does. in the case of the serb shootdown the flight path was known - that meant that after 4 days of predictable pattern they could preplan their response. - hence the term "box kill"

quoting RCS does not add any value to your arguments - and it still does not qualify any of your prev comments about F-117 SOPs which were significantly and palpably wrong.

you misunderstand how F-117s were deployed
you have misunderstood the serb shootdown reasons for success

you have outright made comments about F-117 usage and deployment which do not reflect any of the ways that they were actually used.

eg F-117's don't have wingmen.
eg F-117's at comms lock go passive. ie once the aerials go conformal, they go emissions silent.

and with the greatest of respect, quoting a games site to support your argument - esp a games site that makes so many assumptions is a brave step for anyone to make.

 

[yess]

with all due respect...
just cuz u r an admin you get to use atitude towards members who Challenge you on a topic?

i never said F-117 works with a wingman Principle... i was reffering to F-22..

plez visit this site and tell me where i am wrong..
f22totalairwar.de/F-22_Total_Air_War_Stealth_Radar_Cross_Section_RCS. com

 

[gf0012-aust]

with all due respect...
just cuz u r an admin you get to use atitude towards members who Challenge you on a topic?

i never said F-117 works with a wingman Principle... i was reffering to F-22..

plez visit this site and tell me where i am wrong..
f22totalairwar.de/F-22_Total_Air_War_Stealth_Radar_Cross_Section_RCS. com

its a games site for goodness sake!

i get attitude towards people who sprout stuff which is palpably wrong - eg the Serb shootdown, the F-117 mode of operation and stealth planes doing sharp turns. (your wonderful sniper analogy)

if you don't like criticism you're in the wrong place. listen and learn and review some of the other posts before passing comment on things that are demonstrably wrong.

my admin status has got nothing to do with my response - you're in for a hard time from some of the others in here who can demonstrate significant competency in technical discusion.

I'm just dying to know how an OSINT source like F-22 Total War is in the remotest position to know about engagement profiles of a Tier 1 US system. Its beyond the pale to assume that they have any degree of credibility on when and how an F-22 (or a JSF, Rafale or Typhoon for that matter) will be detected. They have no idea what the aircraft RCS really are, and they have no idea what counter and passive systems are in place. Its sophistry at best.

If you want to continue to have an argument then you are wasting my time - and you do little service to your own credibility by making things up and presenting them as knowledgeable fact.

 

[swerve]

with all due respect...
just cuz u r an admin you get to use atitude towards members who Challenge you on a topic?

...

FYI - Rule 15
"Proper punctuation is a must. Do not add excessive dots as a replacement for a comma. this....isn't really....fun..to read. also watch the spelling. [Its hrd 2 reed whn peple tipe poorly, its also trashy! This will make posts much nicer, neat and easy to read for fellow participants. This isn't done on most forums, its time you get use to it here."

 

[alexsa]

Actually I was under the impression Yess was the comic relief.

I will applogise now for the childish comment but I couldn't resist.

 

[f-22fan12]

The F-22 is without a doubt a very good aircraft. I do not think however it would be able to defeat 10 Su-37s. It could however certainly defeat 3-5 in a close range dogfight. However in BVR 10 kills is possible and would happen in a real engagement.

 

[f-22fan12]

After the F-22 What is the best fighter aircraft in the world?

There are many good planes that would do good in second place. Russian built beasts like the Sukhoi 30MKI or western planes like the Eurofighter, Rafale, or Gripen. The Su-30 has thrust vectoring and good close in dogfighting skills but a bad radar and no supercruise. The Eurofighter has a good radar, supercruise, and good avionics, but it doesn't have trust vectoring.

 

[rjmaz1]

The F-35 will be the second best in a few years.

Next up we have the Eurofighter, Rafale, SU-30 and even the Super Hornet and F-15SG.

Pretty even aircraft as each have their own advantages and disadvantages.

The Super Hornet may be slower, but has a large avioinic, sensor and netcentric advantage. This brings it up into contention.

Some aircraft may be able to supercruise but thats not quick enough to outrun a missile. So supercruise can be useless if you cant back it up in other area's.

Thrust vectoring is not useful if you keep getting shot down at beyond visual range.

 

[rjmaz1]

The F-22 is without a doubt a very good aircraft. I do not think however it would be able to defeat 10 Su-37s. It could however certainly defeat 3-5 in a close range dogfight. However in BVR 10 kills is possible and would happen in a real engagement.

It will not defeat all 10 on the one mission, it doesn't have enough missiles.

On the first mission it will however shoot down 3 of them then return to base.

On the second mission shoot down 3 more then return to base.

On the third mission it shoots down 4 more but then runs out of missiles and gets shot down.

10 kills and 1 loss. 10:1 ratio.

Thats an aircraft vs aircraft comparison. If you give the USAF Awac's, satelites and air refuelers i wouldn't be surprised if the Kill ratio was 100:1 in favour of the F-22.

Consider the F-15 has over 50 kills and not a single loss. The F-22 has probably a bigger advantage over the enemy than the F-15 has had over the last few decades.

 

[tphuang]

do we really need another who is the best thread? Closed.

 

[Rich]

Except the F-22 isn't going to be flying in a vacuum. Its going to be supported by AWACs, flying in wolfpacks of 2 or more, the airbases and radars of the enemy are going to be pounded, their C&C decapitated. Were not going to be fighting fair even with the F-22.

This aint 1917 over France.

 

[eaf-f16]

I have read somewhere (an article by a British "think tank") and unfortunately I can't give you the url or which company put it out but the meat of the story goes:

By thier estimation, and judging by what the Aircraft (granting the pilots are of equal skills) can do, it will take:

.o6 Sukhoi Su-37s to defeat an F-15
4 Sukhoi Su-37s to defeat a Typhoon
10 Sukhoi Su-37s to defeat an F-22

My question:
If the Typhoon and the Raptor THAT GOOD?

P.S. if someone happens to run across this article on the net, can you post the url please?

Those are HIGHLY optimistic statistics. The UK gov't. tried to ground the Su-37 in 1996 in Farnbrough because it was going to make the Eurofighter look like trash and it did.

And at the time of the Su-35's release it was by far the worlds best fighter and remains to this day the only 3d TVC production plane other than the MKI and probably the most maneuverable production plane.

The Eurofighter couldn't go against a Su-30 MKI or a Su-35 let alone an Su-37. Th only plane that I think is better than the Su-37 is the F-22 and I think 4 Su-37 and AWACS are needed to down one and thats if the Su-37's pilots are amazing. Only 1 Su-37 is needed to down one if the F-22 is drawn into WVR combat again a highly skilled pilots is need for the Su-37.

 

[jaffo4011]

Those are HIGHLY optimistic statistics. The UK gov't. tried to ground the Su-37 in 1996 in Farnbrough because it was going to make the Eurofighter look like trash and it did.

And at the time of the Su-35's release it was by far the worlds best fighter and remains to this day the only 3d TVC production plane other than the MKI and probably the most maneuverable production plane.

The Eurofighter couldn't go against a Su-30 MKI or a Su-35 let alone an Su-37. Th only plane that I think is better than the Su-37 is the F-22 and I think 4 Su-37 and AWACS are needed to down one and thats if the Su-37's pilots are amazing. Only 1 Su-37 is needed to down one if the F-22 is drawn into WVR combat again a highly skilled pilots is need for the Su-37.

what a load of tosh!!

can you justify any of your comments at all or provide any sources for them in view of the fact that the typhoon has been proven during recent clashes to dominate the f22 in the wvr arena??

henceforth i would argue that the typhoon it is more than capable of dealing with any derivative of the su family if it deals with the f22 so dismissively.

 

[eaf-f16]

what a load of tosh!!

can you justify any of your comments at all or provide any sources for them in view of the fact that the typhoon has been proven during recent clashes to dominate the f22 in the wvr arena??

Admin: Text deleted. Learn some self control whilst you're banned for breaching the forum rules.

I was saying the Su-35 ,with All-Aspect TVC and an airframe designed to be super maneuverable, would be superior to the F-22 in WVR because the F-22 relies SOLEY on 2D TVC(which isn't as good as the Su-35's 3-D TVC) to make it "super-maneuverable".

And as I stated before I don't think the Eurofighter Typhoon can go against the Su-35, Su-37 or the F-22 in WVR combat.

 

[jaffo4011]

Who the fuck was talking about the the Typhoon?!

I was saying the Su-35 ,with All-Aspect TVC and an airframe designed to be super maneuverable, would be superior to the F-22 in WVR because the F-22 relies SOLEY on 2D TVC(which isn't as good as the Su-35's 3-D TVC) to make it "super-maneuverable".

And as I stated before I don't think the Eurofighter Typhoon can go against the Su-35, Su-37 or the F-22 in WVR combat.

.....and i was referring(without resorting to the use of foul languaqe) to your lack of sources for your comments in your previous post.are you any nearer to providing them?

 

[eaf-f16]

.....and i was referring(without resorting to the use of foul languaqe) to your lack of sources for your comments in your previous post.are you any nearer to providing them?

I think it is widely known that the F-22 uses 2D TVC and that the Su-35 uses 3D TVC and also that the Eurofighter has NO TVC whatsoever.

I think it's also known that the Su-35's airframe allows for super maneuverability and is-in terms of maneuverability- superior to the F-22's airframe and thus can defeat it in WVR combat.

But stealth alone makes the F-22 nearly untouchable in BVR which makes it an infinitely superior aircraft to any current fighter.

Or were you referring to the Eurofighter Typhoon being humiliated by the Su-37 in the 1996 Farnbrough air show and the UK gov't trying to ground the Su-37 so it won't make the Eurofighter Typhoon look like trash? Because if so I would gladly provide a link.