Serbian Kotor-Class, Sava-Class, Heroj-Class, Mala-Class...
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mic of orion
New Member
Well design I saw, is more of OPV not a corvette to be honest, it is 80-85m long, although I was quoted 75-95m by Croatian MOD person, I figured it can't be 75m, from what I saw it must be 85m long, but I'll go 80-85m long.
It has 57 or 76mm Stealth Naval Cannon, SSM - not sure, perhpas it has, but I didn't see it on the design. on each side of the bridge there is 12.7mm MG',
and on the side of hangar 20mm auto cannon, on top the hanger there is 21 cell RAM sistem, and there is space for small 10 ton helicopter that is it, O'h yhea massive Croatian flag as well, lool.
Not sure, whether ship has any other ASW capability, like ASW tubes or something, but ship was in Coast guard colors not naval colors on the design, so I doubt that ship has any ASW capability.
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mic of orion
New Member
yep that is it, lol, as I told you very basic design.Ok... if you saw the design...is it anything like this picture published in newspapers some time ago...
One that I saw was improved on this, but generally speaking that is it. But i think this is only OPV not a corvette, I think and I hope Gowinds will still be purchased and these OPV's used as coastal patrol - for anti smuggling operations.
contedicavour
New Member
The drawing in the jpg picture carries Coast Guard colours so it could be a lightly armed variant of the version the Croatian Navy wants.
An idea would be to take the RBS SSMs from the "King" class and put them on the new corvettes, and rather use the smaller "King" FACs as lightly armed Coast Guard ships... it would make sense to decrease expenditure and have the vessels with better autonomy more heavily armed.
Oh by the way the Italian Navy has some spare Aspide launchers with relative Dardo illuminators (coming from the 4 older Minerva FFLs being transformed into OPVs) which could be a very low cost solution to bring AAW to the new corvettes.
cheers
An idea would be to take the RBS SSMs from the "King" class and put them on the new corvettes, and rather use the smaller "King" FACs as lightly armed Coast Guard ships... it would make sense to decrease expenditure and have the vessels with better autonomy more heavily armed.
Oh by the way the Italian Navy has some spare Aspide launchers with relative Dardo illuminators (coming from the 4 older Minerva FFLs being transformed into OPVs) which could be a very low cost solution to bring AAW to the new corvettes.
cheers
mic of orion
New Member
I think RAM system is best solution bit pricey, at 7-8 million a pop, but very capable system.
Croatia has 80+ RBS15 in its stockpile, plans to keep some 48 in active service and rest in reserves, New corvettes when they do join will use new SSM, most likley latest derivative of French Exocet. For AAW (SAM's) I think new corvettes will support two systems RAM and most likley ASTER 30, but time will tell,
contedicavour
New Member
Interesting thanks. I have a doubt though on the possibility of fitting Asters (15, never mind the long range -30s) on vessels below the 2,500 tonnage threshold. For corvettes of approx 2,000 t the system the French push is Mica VLS which is in the same class as RAM in terms of range.I think RAM system is best solution bit pricey, at 7-8 million a pop, but very capable system.
Croatia has 80+ RBS15 in its stockpile, plans to keep some 48 in active service and rest in reserves, New corvettes when they do join will use new SSM, most likley latest derivative of French Exocet. For AAW (SAM's) I think new corvettes will support two systems RAM and most likley ASTER 30, but time will tell,
cheers
mic of orion
New Member
Gowind 200 are equipped with Aster 15/30 system rest of the Gowind class are Mica. Aster 15 has long range I think 20 miles and Aster 30 75 miles, don't quote me on range thing, not 100% certain of this fact.
Nasalized Mica version has range of up to 80km, again not 100% sure, I know earlier version had range of 37km.
lok at dcn website and gowind 200.
PS, RAM has range of 8km or 5miles only, it is a point defense system, developed by Germans and Americans, sort of last defense screen, Phalanx has proven to be quite unreliable and only good version of CIWS is Dutch Goalkeeper, but system requires a lot of space underneath the deck and for this it is not very feasible on ships lacking interior space. Some navies use combination of both systems, RAM and Goalkeeper for best air defense, one thing stays in mind is Falklands War and at which ease Royal navy lost 4 warships and 2 support ships.
If Royal Navy was equipped with Goalkeeper CIWS than it wouldn't suffer a single loss.
contedicavour
New Member
Aster 15 = 30km and Aster 30 = 120km max range
Mica has 60km range in its air to air version (the one used by the French air force Mirage 2000-5) but launched as a VLS from a ship the real range is much much lower. The missile is also lighter and smaller than Aster-15 and meant for self defence.
You are right that the advertisement of the Gowind 200 carries Asters but the ship isn't big enough to have a Herakles sufficiently high up on a mast to ensure maximum range and the size/weight of the Sylver launchers for asters stretch the Gowind 200 to the very maximum. So far the smallest units carrying Asters are the Delta FFGs of Singapore and the latest modified Lafayette for Saudi. We're talking 3000+ tonnes. One last thing, the Sylver A50 or A70 is required to carry Aster 30s. It is much deeper and heavier and I really don't get it how DCN thinks of fitting it into a 2000 tonner. It's a bit like fitting a 120mm main gun on a M48 MBT ....
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Yes you are right. Though Goalkeeper was barely entering service in 1982 ... besides, if Argentina had had more than 5 Exocet ASMs in its inventory the odds would have been very delicate for the Royal Navy expeditionary force back then. Goalkeeper is an excellent CIWS, but it too has its limits when defending a ship from several Exocets launched from different angles (besides, very few ships carry enough Goalkeeper of other CIWS to allow for 360° coverage)
cheers
mic of orion
New Member
I think Aster 15 is likley, Aster 30, you are right to big for ship like Gowind 200, as to MICA naval version has range of 12km, but this is not the latest offering so I am not 100% sure. Aster 15 has range of 32km and it is more maneuverable and faster I think.Aster 15 = 30km and Aster 30 = 120km max range
Mica has 60km range in its air to air version (the one used by the French air force Mirage 2000-5) but launched as a VLS from a ship the real range is much much lower. The missile is also lighter and smaller than Aster-15 and meant for self defence.
You are right that the advertisement of the Gowind 200 carries Asters but the ship isn't big enough to have a Herakles sufficiently high up on a mast to ensure maximum range and the size/weight of the Sylver launchers for asters stretch the Gowind 200 to the very maximum. So far the smallest units carrying Asters are the Delta FFGs of Singapore and the latest modified Lafayette for Saudi. We're talking 3000+ tonnes. One last thing, the Sylver A50 or A70 is required to carry Aster 30s. It is much deeper and heavier and I really don't get it how DCN thinks of fitting it into a 2000 tonner. It's a bit like fitting a 120mm main gun on a M48 MBT ....
cheers
Gowind 200 is 2500 tons I think, 1950 is empty registry weight, 2500 is more likley true weight of the ship when at full combat, after all ship is 103 m long.
Basically Gowind 200 are small frigates all but in name you can fit 16 or 24 cell VLS on Gowind 200, not sure any other corvette has that capability.
Not trying to defend the class or anything, lol, after all I know to little about it to make any assumption about the ship, but Croatia does need major ship and this seem to fit the perfectly.
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If fits nicer then those low cost corvettes/OPVs we are building instead, true.
And I can tell you I'm not particulary fond of these corvettes, either. For one thing, they ride pretty low over watter. IMHO, not a good thing if you are going to be using them out in the open sea and in rough weather. The other thing is that hull looks like a stretched missile gunboat, goddammit, and they do not have a hello hangar.
However, they are domestically built so I'm prepared to forget these things
, just build them!As to the matter of a serious major ship, I think we could do better then a Gowind 200 in a few years time. It is a good and potent little warship, but if we are going to start deploying them overseas, a seriously sized frigate with a full set of AAW ans ASW sensors and weapons would be my first choice.
mic of orion
New Member
I agree, somethign like large See Wraith class, 147m long, 18m wide, looks wicked, forward VLS with 48 cells, and aft with the 32 cells for SSM and SCALP - Storm Shadow, lol, Add to this 2 Goalkeeper on a side, and RAM system on top of Hanger, 127mm naval gun, ASW capability in form on one NH90, and 4x20mm auto canons, + chaffs and IRC flairs and ASW decoys, not forgetting 2 torpedo tubes, in all 125 crew, and ship falls just about in to FFG category, lol, with under 5000 tons dead weight. Give me 3 of these, lol.If fits nicer then those low cost corvettes/OPVs we are building instead, true.
And I can tell you I'm not particulary fond of these corvettes, either. For one thing, they ride pretty low over watter. IMHO, not a good thing if you are going to be using them out in the open sea and in rough weather. The other thing is that hull looks like a stretched missile gunboat, goddammit, and they do not have a hello hangar.
However, they are domestically built so I'm prepared to forget these things
As to the matter of a serious major ship, I think we could do better then a Gowind 200 in a few years time. It is a good and potent little warship, but if we are going to start deploying them overseas, a seriously sized frigate with a full set of AAW ans ASW sensors and weapons would be my first choice.
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Where do you get those range figures? MBDA say on their website that Mica VL has 12 km range, & they should know - they make it. They say "more than 30km" for Aster 15. VL Mica weighs 112kg, Aster 15 310 kg.
Storm Shadow? A purely air-launched missile? Wouldn't work very well on a ship
nfloorl:mic of orion
New Member
lol I know, but they are working on land and ship version as well, forgot the name but yea, they have naval version of Storm Shadow called SCALP EG or SCALP Naval, depending which nation is ordering it.Storm Shadow? A purely air-launched missile? Wouldn't work very well on a ship
Naval Version will have longer range from what I understand, as to Mica, I said I wasn't sure, there are loads of versions and I am not sure which one will be fitted in to Godwin 200.
Still I think Aster 15 would be most probable missile if Croatia orders its Godwin's from France.
OK, a little bit of information:
Storm Shadow, Scalp EG & Black Shaheen are the same missile, apart from very minor differences. Storm Shadow is the British version. It is identical (apart from the interface to the aircraft) to Scalp EG, which is French. Both are derived from the shorter-range French Apache missile. Black Shaheen is a variant for the UAE. They are all air-launched & all look the same.
Here is a picture -
http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/2005-07-25/U1335P27T1D308407F3DT20050725141338.jpg
Scalp Naval is a French surface & submarine launched missile derived from, but not the same as, Scalp EG. It fits most of the same innards, plus extra fuel, into a different body that can be fired from torpedo tubes or a VLS, with a booster to get it airborne. It is under development.
Here is a picture of Scalp Naval -
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/fremm/fremm4.html
And description -
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/doc_imp/brochure_scalp_uk.pdf
And here is MBDAs picture gallery -
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/si..._rubrique=&affiche=1&zlRubrique=16&zlItem=23#
And 2006 product brochure - http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/doc_imp/product2006_EN.pdf
mic of orion
New Member
I knew that, I said so. Scalp and Stormshadow are being developed jointly by France, UK and I think few others.
But still thanx for pointing few things out..
But still thanx for pointing few things out..
contedicavour
New Member
I think we need some realism here. What is the expected budget for Croatia's navy procurement in the next 15-20 years ?
Even France will only be able to afford 250 SCALP in all despite planning to have at least 9 FREMM-land attack and 6 Barracuda SSN platforms to launch them... and this procurement is planned over a 15 year time span...
cheers
Even France will only be able to afford 250 SCALP in all despite planning to have at least 9 FREMM-land attack and 6 Barracuda SSN platforms to launch them... and this procurement is planned over a 15 year time span...
cheers
mic of orion
New Member
Lol, Croatia won't be getting any Scalp's, it was only hypothetical, what if Croatia got this and that. Croatia will suffice its needs with standard weapon systems that it needs to defend its coastline and to participate in peacekeeping ops.
Well Croatian defense budget is really small, about 850-875 million USD (1.7% GDP), it will increase as time goes, but it will never exceed 2% of GDP.
By 2015 this should increase to around 2.2 billion USD of this navy would get one fifth at most.