Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[StingrayOZ]

NZ isn't an island unto itself, it won't be fighting indonesia single handedly. NZ is quiet lucky to have a powerful friend like Australia sitting inbetween trouble and them. But NZ should aim to support Australian forces so between us we can handle all but the largest of problems at least for a short while.

NZ will always be a supporting force to Australia. Australia is a supporting force to the US. Each can perform certain rolls independantly, NZ can perform minor policing duties, Australia has shown it can lead a task force overseas to secure a new nation. And the US can do what ever it wants.

Australia is pretty strong and NZ forces currently would assist the Australian forces in strenght. Australia is going to take a quantum leap in the next 10 years. With the possibility of independantly forming a formidable task group simular to the US carrier strike group. However doing so will drain its resorces, something NZ can help by picking up patrols or joining Australian forces allowing them to perform regular patrols etc.

If NZ wants to get into the thick of it, then seriously concider leasing/buying a ANZAC or a AWD. If they want to keep out of front line action the smaller patrol boats, corrvettes or simular would be more suitable for policing roles locally and in overseas commitments.

 

[ThePuss]

HMNZS CANTERBURY Commissioned

HMNZS CANTERBURY Commissioned into Service

Media Advisory

12 June 2007

HMNZS CANTERBURY, the Navy’s newest and largest ship, was officially commissioned into service in Melbourne today by the Right Honourable Helen Clark, Prime Minister of New Zealand.

Rear Admiral David Ledson, Chief of Navy, said, ”The commissioning of CANTERBURY formalises the ship becoming part of the Navy. It's a great occasion for the Navy and for the Defence Force as we can now start working towards fully exploiting the tremendous range of new capabilities the ship gives us.”

Commander Tony Millar, Commanding Officer of HMNZS CANTERBURY, said “The ship’s company can be rightly proud of all of the work they have put in, and all they have accomplished in such a short period. They are great New Zealanders.”

HMNZS CANTERBURY’s formal handover occurred on 31 May. She will arrive in Lyttelton for her homecoming on June 28. She will then visit Timaru between 4 and 6 July before arriving at the Devonport Naval Base, the home of the Navy, in late July.


Background

The Multi-Role Vessel CANTERBURY is the first of seven new ships built for the Royal New Zealand Navy under Project Protector. She is affiliated to the Canterbury Region. She was built at the Merwede Shipyard in the Netherlands, under contract to Tenix. CANTERBURY’s design is based on a commercial RO-RO ship, Ben-My-Chree in operation in the Irish Sea.
CANTERBURY will have diesel-electric propulsion and a maximum speed of just over 19 knots. She will provide a sealift capability for the transport and deployment of equipment, vehicles and personnel, and capable of transferring cargo and personnel ashore in benign conditions (up to sea state 3) when port facilities are not available. CANTERBURY has two 59 tonne Landing Craft Medium (LCM) capable of carrying 50 tonnes at 9 knots with a range of 250 nm.

Particulars of CANTERBURY
Displacement: 9000 tonnes
Length overall: 131 metres
Beam: 23.4 metres
Speed: 19 knots

Complement: Core ship's company: 53
Flight personnel: 10
Government agencies: 4
Army ship's staff: 7
Trainees: 35
Troops: 250
Total: 360

Propulsion: Diesel engines
Flight deck: Space for two helicopters

Armament: 25mm and two .50 calibre machine guns

Helicopter capability
The NH90 Helicopter has been selected as the NZDF’s preferred medium Utility Helicopter to replace RNZAF’S Iroquois. Up to four NH90’s can be carried onboard the MRV for deployment ashore in support of Army operations and disaster relief activities. The MRV is also capable of operating the SH-2G Seasprite and the helicopter deck is able to handle a Chinook-size helicopter.

 

[alexsa]

I wouldn't say small force. Per capita it is actually quite large. Not many countries of 4 million hav a 130m MRV. The depolyable force, well if there was a big problem with indonesia, the navy cound send 2 frigates, MRV, 1 replenish vessel, 2 OPV, Hydro Graphic survey and mine. Possibly even 1 or 2 IPV. That is a nice force when supported by harpoon armed Orions (fingers crossed) and seasprites.

Poor analogy. Singapore, in the same region, has a population in the same vicinity and has a significantly more capabible military.

 

[Todjaeger]

HMNZS CANTERBURY Commissioned into Service

Media Advisory

12 June 2007

HMNZS CANTERBURY, the Navy’s newest and largest ship, was officially commissioned into service in Melbourne today by the Right Honourable Helen Clark, Prime Minister of New Zealand..

I suppose this might be considered nitpicking... But isn't the HMNZS Endeavour larger than HMNZS Canterbury? IIRC it's about 7m longer, it's beam is ~5m narrower, but also displaces when laden around 3,000 tons more then Canterbury?

Or is the listed displacement for Canterbury just the unladen tonnage? I'm sort of wondering how accurate the media release is in claiming Canterbury as the largest ship in the fleet.

Either way, it's good to see it in service now.

-Cheers

 

[Tasman]

I suppose this might be considered nitpicking... But isn't the HMNZS Endeavour larger than HMNZS Canterbury? IIRC it's about 7m longer, it's beam is ~5m narrower, but also displaces when laden around 3,000 tons more then Canterbury?

Or is the listed displacement for Canterbury just the unladen tonnage? I'm sort of wondering how accurate the media release is in claiming Canterbury as the largest ship in the fleet.

Either way, it's good to see it in service now.

-Cheers

Maybe the media doesn't consider HMNZS Endeavour to be a warship!

It would be correct to say that HMNZS Canterbury is the largest ship in the navy that is armed with something more powerful than .50 cal HMGs.

Cheers

 

[RubiconNZ]

Maybe the media doesn't consider HMNZS Endeavour to be a warship!

It would be correct to say that HMNZS Canterbury is the largest ship in the navy that is armed with something more powerful than .50 cal HMGs.

Cheers

Sounds like typical mass media ignorance though has the Endeavor been fitted with the Phalanx? I thought I remember seeing it on it in a picture though I may be confused.

 

[smithy-nz]

The Canterbury is an important addition to the Navy, however its future deployment is like to be severly restricted as it is too lightly armed to be capable of defending itself in any moderate threat level environment.
It is to much of target to ever be risked, and cannot defend itself; in an environment when an ANZAC frigate may not be available to be placed in 'harms-way' between the threat. Canterbury requires a modest refit. Decoys, 57 or 76 mm main gun and either RAM or like, and basic sensor upgrade.
The Ship in an emergency cannot even support troops with firepower -and again an ANZAC may not be available in an emergency [not that any naval commander would ever want to use such a vessel in this role -hense the term 'emergency'].
If such a vessel was ever required to evacuate 'friendlies' then Canterbury is not equiped to defend itself at all.
Almost every patrol vessel over 40 metres in the Asia/Pacific region is better armed.
A great asset just needs to be refitted 'just in case'. Otherwise the vessel is a liability in many operational environments.
Almost a pity the Navy, the Army would probably have prefered that the Navy owned two.

 

[Tasman]

Sounds like typical mass media ignorance though has the Endeavor been fitted with the Phalanx? I thought I remember seeing it on it in a picture though I may be confused.

One of our Kiwi members may correct me but I am unaware of Endeavour ever being fitted with Phalanx. The RAN fitted 2 Phalanx mounts on the AOR HMAS Success to ensure that they could be fitted if required for an operational deployment. After the trials the two units were removed. Maybe the RNZN did this with Endeavour with the same purpose in mind but that is pure speculation on my part.

Cheers

 

[stryker NZ]

i dont think the Endeavour as ever had a phalanx mind you its a common light tanker design so it would be easy to mistaken it for another ship of a similar class

 

[Lucasnz]

One of our Kiwi members may correct me but I am unaware of Endeavour ever being fitted with Phalanx. The RAN fitted 2 Phalanx mounts on the AOR HMAS Success to ensure that they could be fitted if required for an operational deployment. After the trials the two units were removed. Maybe the RNZN did this with Endeavour with the same purpose in mind but that is pure speculation on my part.

Cheers

The orginal plans called for the mounting of a weapon system behind the brigde. It wasn't Phalanx through. The plan was to use 20mm Orkelion from war stocks (these were also been used on Monawai at the time). Currently Endeavour only carries small arms, unless .50cal have been fitted since I saw her last.

 

[recce.k1]

Sounds like typical mass media ignorance though has the Endeavor been fitted with the Phalanx? I thought I remember seeing it on it in a picture though I may be confused.

Hmm, I've wondered about that too. In Matthew Wright's history of the RNZN, called "Blue Water Kiwis", there is a photo of the Endeavour with what appears to be a Phalanx installed on the structure in front of the refuelling booms. I assumed that, as others have pointed out here, it was installed as part of trial/tests. If so, wonder how successful the trials were on this part of the ship?

Good to know Lucas, that the RNZN has plans to mount MG's behind the bridge if required (often wondered if a Phalanx could be mounted up there, similar to HMAS Manoora etc). Maybe they can upgrade to Mini-Typhoon if ever the ship needs to be deployed to the Gulf region (although I remember reading an amusing story in the Dominion Post? around 2002 or 03 about when the Solomons conflict errupted a few years earlier (or maybe it was Bougainville), on how (Harold Keke? If so, must have been the Solomons) boarded the Endeavour, armed of course, but was persuaded by the crew to put their guns down and have a cuppa (the report played everything down, and apologies if I got the ship name wrong). Serious, couldn't belive what I was reading!

Anyway in the NZ LTDP http://www.nzdf.mil.nz, for Project Protector, it states the "in service through life costs are NZ $1.9billion" for the seven ships. Presumably this includes upgrading plant, machinery, communications and hopefully weapon systems over the life of the ships (10-25 years). (Hmmm, wonder what ships will only have a life span of 10 years - the IPV's due to becoming battered by the rough sea states)?

 

[RubiconNZ]

Hmm, I've wondered about that too. In Matthew Wright's history of the RNZN, called "Blue Water Kiwis", there is a photo of the Endeavour with what appears to be a Phalanx installed on the structure in front of the refuelling booms. I assumed that, as others have pointed out here, it was installed as part of trial/tests. If so, wonder how successful the trials were on this part of the ship?

Yup thats sounds about right, it was so long ago I can't properly recall, when I get home from uni I can check all my old defence quarterlies and the like to see, well next week I'll have a look.

 

[recce.k1]

Yup thats sounds about right, it was so long ago I can't properly recall, when I get home from uni I can check all my old defence quarterlies and the like to see, well next week I'll have a look.

The photo shows Endeavour with Frigate Wellington alongside - both with Phalanx fitted. Must have been taken in the mid 1990's around the time when the Wellington was deployed to the Gulf? Seeing NZ only bought two units, Endeavour must have "borrowed" Canterbury's unit. Then again Endeavour deployed to the Gulf in around 1990/91 to support the RAN so maybe the photo was taken then and was actually fitted for real use (any ex-Navy types who would know when they were bought, LucasNZ & Norm maybe)?

Tried to track down an on-line article of the Endeavour/warlord Harold Keke incident. I'm pretty sure I read it in the Dom Post (or Evening Post) but their on-line archive doesn't go back that far in time. Geeez, if this did happen, maybe the good ol' Endeavour may need some decent mini-typhoons fitted for night and day target tracking even for Pacific operations! Strange as it might seem, because the RNZN's assets are quite small, they do deploy non-combatant vessels in aid of peace-keeping presence (and EEZ patrols), maybe this will change when the OPV's and IPV's (which have a 3000nm transit range) are commissioned?

 

[Tasman]

The photo shows Endeavour with Frigate Wellington alongside - both with Phalanx fitted. Must have been taken in the mid 1990's around the time when the Wellington was deployed to the Gulf? Seeing NZ only bought two units, Endeavour must have "borrowed" Canterbury's unit. Then again Endeavour deployed to the Gulf in around 1990/91 to support the RAN so maybe the photo was taken then and was actually fitted for real use (any ex-Navy types who would know when they were bought, LucasNZ & Norm maybe)?

Tried to track down an on-line article of the Endeavour/warlord Harold Keke incident. I'm pretty sure I read it in the Dom Post (or Evening Post) but their on-line archive doesn't go back that far in time. Geeez, if this did happen, maybe the good ol' Endeavour may need some decent mini-typhoons fitted for night and day target tracking even for Pacific operations! Strange as it might seem, because the RNZN's assets are quite small, they do deploy non-combatant vessels in aid of peace-keeping presence (and EEZ patrols), maybe this will change when the OPV's and IPV's (which have a 3000nm transit range) are commissioned?

It does make sense that a CIWS would be trialled on Endeavour (as on HMAS Success) in case it was needed for an operational deployment. I've been going through my books and magazines to try and find a photo of Endeavour during her Gulf deployment but have had no luck so far.

Cheers

 

[recce.k1]

Editorial from the Dominion Post newspaper. A generally positive article, in support of the MRV HMNZS Canterbury and the new capabilities it offers to the NZDF and additional support for the ADF (which is great, as in some ways editorials reflect the mood of the public on defence issues, and generally the public mood has been quite supportive especially since the INTERFET intervention in 1999 when the public got to appreciate the good work of the NZDF etc). Also gives a cost of NZ$146M for the MRV. On the other hand, the editorial probably reflects the views of the Govt's positive spin press releases on the MRV (eg the self-protection issue isn't discussed, the Govt spin on the unmodified Charles Upham being a lemon (although the difference between the Canterbury and the Charles Upham is abit like the difference between HMAS Tobruk and the Manoora etc, different roles for different ships?)). Anyway a welcome addition to the RNZN Fleet at last.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4100908a6483.html

"The conch shell that heralded the commissioning of the navy's newest vessel, HMNZS Canterbury, should also herald a new era in defence procurement, The Dominion Post writes.


New Zealand's defence bosses have a sorry history when it comes to buying equipment, not least with the light armoured vehicles purchase. Critics argue they were too expensive to buy and run, that too many were bought, and that they have a limited off-road ability.

The mother of all debacles, though, must have been the attempts to provide the navy with a multi-role vessel. The saga of the Charles Upham is well-known. The second-hand Scandinavian roll-on, roll-off ferry was bought for $14 million, and had $7 million spent on it. However, it had been designed for cargoes heavier than the bulky but light military variety, and bobbed about so much that it earned the sobriquet the Chuck Upham.

Solutions that were tried, but which failed, included loading gravel-filled containers aboard to give it ballast. The Government abandoned expensive plans to upgrade it and sold what had proved to be a lemon. Last heard of, the ship was being used to transport citrus fruit around the Mediterranean.

The commissioning of HMNZS Canterbury in Melbourne last week should mean an end to all that. The 131-metre vessel is purpose-built for the many roles it will be expected to fill, not a civilian cargo ship masquerading as something else. If it lives up to the design - and though there has been some criticism of the ship by those involved with rival bids, there appears to be no reason to doubt that it will - the newest ship in the navy will serve the Defence Force's needs well. It provides a floating base for up to five helicopters, has the ability to land personnel and equipment without needing a wharf, and can carry up to 250 troops, 40 light armoured vehicles and 33 containers. Its ice-strengthened hull will allow it to operate in the southern oceans that make up such a large chunk of New Zealand's extensive exclusive economic zone.

As Prime Minister Helen Clark pointed out, the ship will be a centrepiece of the Defence Force's joint approach to operations, and will let the three services deploy together. As importantly, it will mesh in with the Australian defence forces.

HMNZS Canterbury and the other ships that are part of the Protector project ship fleet are part of a realistic approach to New Zealand's defence needs that has seen New Zealand drop its air combat capability, and step away from a philosophy that seemed to require New Zealand to have a little bit of everything. That ran the risk of ending up with token forces, and resources spread too thinly.

New Zealand does not have the resources to do everything in defence, so it should pick what it needs to do. In all probability, future tasks will be the same as those of recent years - peacekeeping and counter-insurgency, disaster relief, policing the exclusive economic zone and monitoring operations such as those carried out in the Gulf by the Anzac frigates. It needs to make sure it does those superbly well, spending what is needed to achieve that.

At $146 million, HMNZS Canterbury is not cheap. However, the very least of the obligations a government has to those it asks to put themselves in harm's way is to provide them with the very best of equipment possible to do the job. HMNZS Canterbury shows all the signs of being that."

 

[mug]

Agreed - whenever words like "realistic" get used to describe the current defence policy, you know it's been lifted from a government source.

And the last paragraph:

very least of the obligations a government has to those it asks to put themselves in harm's way is to provide them with the very best of equipment possible to do the job. HMNZS Canterbury shows all the signs of being that."

A p.iss take surely??

 

[Lucasnz]

At $146 million, HMNZS Canterbury is not cheap. However, the very least of the obligations a government has to those it asks to put themselves in harm's way is to provide them with the very best of equipment possible to do the job. HMNZS Canterbury shows all the signs of being that."[/B]

The very best of equipment possible - What a load of trolls. If we'd got the best we would have purchased something like the Singapore Endurance Class. Instead we've got a very important ship, thats not even fitted with basic countermeasures or radar warning.

The Dominion Press should stop interviewing Helen Clark and do some real journalism and investigate the issue!!!

 

[Aussie Digger]

The commissioning of HMNZS Canterbury in Melbourne last week should mean an end to all that. The 131-metre vessel is purpose-built for the many roles it will be expected to fill, not a civilian cargo ship masquerading as something else.

No, it's a civilian ferry masquerading as something else.

If it lives up to the design - and though there has been some criticism of the ship by those involved with rival bids, there appears to be no reason to doubt that it will - the newest ship in the navy will serve the Defence Force's needs well. It provides a floating base for up to five helicopters, has the ability to land personnel and equipment without needing a wharf, and can carry up to 250 troops, 40 light armoured vehicles and 33 containers. Its ice-strengthened hull will allow it to operate in the southern oceans that make up such a large chunk of New Zealand's extensive exclusive economic zone.

Blah, blah, blah. Apart from the ice strengthening, which is not that great either apparently, everything else is about as minimal a capability as can possibly be had in this role. The ability to carry a single rifle company?

Astounding!

HMNZS Canterbury and the other ships that are part of the Protector project ship fleet are part of a realistic approach to New Zealand's defence needs that has seen New Zealand drop its air combat capability, and step away from a philosophy that seemed to require New Zealand to have a little bit of everything. That ran the risk of ending up with token forces, and resources spread too thinly.

]

No, they've adopted a policy of: "a little bit of very little".

New Zealand does not have the resources to do everything in defence, so it should pick what it needs to do.

Who does? Hopefully Mrs CLARK can "pick" what an enemy might do too.

In all probability, future tasks will be the same as those of recent years - peacekeeping and counter-insurgency, disaster relief, policing the exclusive economic zone and monitoring operations such as those carried out in the Gulf by the Anzac frigates. It needs to make sure it does those superbly well, spending what is needed to achieve that.

Fingers crossed...

At $146 million, HMNZS Canterbury is not cheap.

It is by Defence standards. VERY cheap. But then you get what you pay for don't you?

However, the very least of the obligations a government has to those it asks to put themselves in harm's way is to provide them with the very best of equipment possible to do the job. HMNZS Canterbury shows all the signs of being that."

nfloorl:

 

[recce.k1]

Projected service life expectancy of RNZN Fleet

Gudday, a quick look at Parliament's Questions http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QOA/ (and the type defence into the search) lists the Q's & A's to the Defence Minister on written questions (all sorts of fascinating stuff, esp the Army small arms life expectancy etc), but in terms of the projected service life expectancy of the RNZN Fleet:

Manawanui (diving support vessel) June 2011 http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QWA/3/3/b/33b2f5cdac6f44cea29d0143976586a8.htm

Kahu (naval sea training vessel) June 2012 http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QWA/a/a/6/aa6d29e5036d4008b49f818c412c99cd.htm

Endeavour (fleet tanker) April 2013 http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QWA/4/d/4/4d4c20b22b1d4bb2b87b2ddf9e7b9b3e.htm

(The above will presumably be in the next LTDP 2012 etc. Will do some further digging from other sources...).

SMB Adventure (inshore survey motor boat) June 2018 http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QWA/9/1/e/91eb392608a7499ea7c1c12987211087.htm

Resolution (survey and research ship) June 2022 http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QWA/7/9/3/7933198039a449dda6ac848df23de870.htm

Te Kaha and Te Mana (ANZAC class frigates) June 2023 and June 2028 respectively http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QWA/c/c/3/cc3e4b1e7ed74e02b0c06fcf4dc28403.htm

All 7 Project Protector ships - 25 years (presumably then 2007-2032?) http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QWA/d/2/2/d2271e479f584bbd89b27d076ae438e7.htm http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QWA/3/8/b/38ba4970d4fa463bbe7416fb5179cfdd.htm http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/QWA/1/3/f/13f9af00906643d782140cdbd33f222e.htm

 

[RubiconNZ]

Very informative especially the Frigate replacement years
Cheers