NZDF General discussion thread

swerve

Super Moderator
Actually a bunch of them are undergoing structual repair and replacement ATM under HUG and will be airworthy for quite some time. Anyway up untill 2001 the RNZAF was operating a squadron of ex RAAF A4 Skyhawks and god nows how old they were. They might have even been with the carrier Melbourne!!! these would be brand spanking new in comparison. And a quantum leap in capabilities.
Your proposal was for pre-HUG, & maybe later some HUG - which would have to be after the RAAF has already given them a bashing.

The A-4 is a very different airframe, with very different fatigue life from the F-18, & the Kiwis had rebuilt theirs (which were not all RAAF - their first lot was direct from the USA) to extend their already formidable life expectancy. Worth it if you already have the airframes, the infrastructure, the crews . . . but I wouldn't advise getting a new type which needed an immediate rebuild to give it a worthwhile future life, when the world is awash with secondhand fighters which are newer & in better shape. There are F-16s & Gripens out there which would be a lot cheaper to operate, especially the Gripens, & have rather more airframe life remaining.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Yes well thats good. Having the F35 will keep this region covered by air power for the forseeable future, and thats why i believe basing a squadron of F35s here would make a whole lot of sense.
Yes, F-35's will take care of those fishing boats and "assymetric" warfare scenario's in the South Pacific.

No doubt about it...
 

Markus40

New Member
Glad to hear it General, we are in many ways relient on Australias Air Power Deterrent, due to our lack of anything close to having an Airforce, but if we cant have one then to support one is the better way to go.


Yes, F-35's will take care of those fishing boats and "assymetric" warfare scenario's in the South Pacific.

No doubt about it...
 
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NZLAV

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #324
I see what you are saying, but say without air support the frigates wouldn't be to good. I believe 32 mulit-role fighters could eliminate, say 7, frigates without air cover. I believe the force would be something like the Falklands force but with a much smaller amount of fighteres due to no air craft carrier. The thing is, the world is becoming more and more unstable and there is going to come a day where New Zealand may have to defend herself, and therefore this is not ridiculous.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Your proposal was for pre-HUG, & maybe later some HUG - which would have to be after the RAAF has already given them a bashing.

The A-4 is a very different airframe, with very different fatigue life from the F-18, & the Kiwis had rebuilt theirs (which were not all RAAF - their first lot was direct from the USA) to extend their already formidable life expectancy. Worth it if you already have the airframes, the infrastructure, the crews . . . but I wouldn't advise getting a new type which needed an immediate rebuild to give it a worthwhile future life, when the world is awash with secondhand fighters which are newer & in better shape. There are F-16s & Gripens out there which would be a lot cheaper to operate, especially the Gripens, & have rather more airframe life remaining.
Your right, but we would give them a damn good price, heaps cheaper than the grippens and all of their training and personall worries would be ataken care of. If they were really in for the investment 24 Grippens/F16's would be the go, with annother Hawk 24 Hawk 200's for lead in fighter trainers, which are cheap and have an APG 66H radar and are combat capable. effectively gives you 2 squadrons for the price of one.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
But that was a long time ago, for a different aircraft. What's Saabs performance on that issue nowadays? We should ask the Czechs & Hungarians.

BTW, wasn't it after Sweden had retired the Draken? If so, it's a typical problem with "orphan" types: one must make sure one secures stockpiles of parts while one can.
The past influences the present. eg French fixed wing combat aircraft will always struggle to get back into our ORBAT as we remember how we were hung out during Vietnam.

In Denmarks case, the choice of Gripen was probably influenced to some extent by SAAB's failure to provide meaningful (albeit costly) support to RDAF. Thats why Thomas view would be interesting as he was tightly involved on support issues.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
In Denmarks case, the choice of Gripen was probably influenced to some extent by SAAB's failure to provide meaningful (albeit costly) support to RDAF. Thats why Thomas view would be interesting as he was tightly involved on support issues.
It would make more sense if you meant Draken instead of Gripen. I know what you're hinting at wrt Draken (thank you Thomas ;)). But still confused on the semantics. :confused:
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Your right, but we would give them a damn good price, heaps cheaper than the grippens and all of their training and personall worries would be ataken care of. ....
With a lifetime operating cost much higher than Gripen, & higher than F-16 - and operating cost is at least as much as purchase price for new aircraft: more for secondhand. Also, why cheaper than Gripen? Remember, you can buy fully operational Gripen A/B secondhand probably pretty cheap, as Saab expect to make money from support. Secondhand F-16 is also cheap. You then have to factor in the cost of any refurbishment needed, & for a non-HUG ex-RAAF F-18 - well, I think that blows the costs through the roof. You'd have to pay the Kiwis to take them away to make them cheaper than the competition. Only worth Australia keeping them because it already has them.

That's the problem: if Australia had not too old (middle-aged would do) fighters surplus to requirements, with low operating costs & decent remaining airframe life, they'd be by far the best buy for the RNZAF, for all the reasons you give - as were the ex-RAN A-4s. But Oz doesn't have any such planes, unfortunately.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Why not just buy something with plenty of life in it. A F-35..

Then NZ could particpate in front line missions internationally, work with US, UK and Australia. Not to mention defence of NZ itself. Compatable with Australia's weapon stores. Could be A, B or C varients. B or C could be deployed to UK or US carriers on occasion. Or possibly to Australia's LHD.

While expensive to begin with after inital orders are filled they will get cheaper.

What sort of budget are we looking at? Would 12 F35's fit into it? Over a life time I wouldn't be suprised if the F-35 was cheaper, with a choice of two engines to keep costs down, single engine, wide range of users, etc.
 

Markus40

New Member
Thats very unlikely at $30 M a piece. NZ could and would afford only a jet like the Grippen or F16 at the limit. A small squadron of ADF F18s would be feasible but due to its life extension issues this becomes a costly white elephant to the NZ MOD.

NZ is really at the fringes of air power although we do in my opinion need one. There fore it makes far more sense to look at a Hawk 200 or Goshawk
or a European Advanced Trainer.



Why not just buy something with plenty of life in it. A F-35..

Then NZ could particpate in front line missions internationally, work with US, UK and Australia. Not to mention defence of NZ itself. Compatable with Australia's weapon stores. Could be A, B or C varients. B or C could be deployed to UK or US carriers on occasion. Or possibly to Australia's LHD.

While expensive to begin with after inital orders are filled they will get cheaper.

What sort of budget are we looking at? Would 12 F35's fit into it? Over a life time I wouldn't be suprised if the F-35 was cheaper, with a choice of two engines to keep costs down, single engine, wide range of users, etc.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Thats very unlikely at $30 M a piece. NZ could and would afford only a jet like the Grippen or F16 at the limit. A small squadron of ADF F18s would be feasible but due to its life extension issues this becomes a costly white elephant to the NZ MOD.

NZ is really at the fringes of air power although we do in my opinion need one. There fore it makes far more sense to look at a Hawk 200 or Goshawk
or a European Advanced Trainer.
Hawk 200 is a good choice IMO. Cheap and easy to maintain, and you could have a trainer/combat aircraft which would be easy to sell to the bosses in wellington. Mav/Sidewinder come stock, and with the APG 66 theres no reason why AMRAAM couldn't be installed, not to mention PGM's and AShM's. I'm not shure if the airframe is capable of carrying Harpoon though, but smaller AShM's like penguin wouldnt be a problem. And a big bonus would be the fact that you could get 24 odd airfrafes brand spanking new for a similar-lower price (guestimation) to old second hand F16's/Grippens. And you would have to buy a squadron of trainers if you bought a squadron of F16/Grippens anyway, in this case you could just buy the one squadron, pluss some double seaters, so a purchase of 30 aircraft would do just fine. Short on legs and sub sonic though, but great bang for your buck. Gives you a maritime strike, air superiority and CAS capability with a pricetag thats hard to beat. Allthough you might wince at the performance when you compare it to front line air superiority/multirole fighters, remeber its in the same performance class as the sea harrier.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hawk 200 is a good choice IMO. Cheap and easy to maintain, and you could have a trainer/combat aircraft which would be easy to sell to the bosses in wellington. Mav/Sidewinder come stock, and with the APG 66 theres no reason why AMRAAM couldn't be installed, not to mention PGM's and AShM's. I'm not shure if the airframe is capable of carrying Harpoon though, but smaller AShM's like penguin wouldnt be a problem. And a big bonus would be the fact that you could get 24 odd airfrafes brand spanking new for a similar-lower price (guestimation) to old second hand F16's/Grippens. And you would have to buy a squadron of trainers if you bought a squadron of F16/Grippens anyway, in this case you could just buy the one squadron, pluss some double seaters, so a purchase of 30 aircraft would do just fine. Short on legs and sub sonic though, but great bang for your buck. Gives you a maritime strike, air superiority and CAS capability with a pricetag thats hard to beat. Allthough you might wince at the performance when you compare it to front line air superiority/multirole fighters, remeber its in the same performance class as the sea harrier.
If you're going down the fast jet trainer route the AMX is superior in terms of range & payload, is fitted with an internal gun etc. At the same time more recent air craft like the T-50 or MAKO would be superior in many respects to the HAWK 200
 

swerve

Super Moderator
If you're going down the fast jet trainer route the AMX is superior in terms of range & payload, is fitted with an internal gun etc. At the same time more recent air craft like the T-50 or MAKO would be superior in many respects to the HAWK 200
AMX is out of production, & isn't a trainer (though there is a trainer version), but a single-seat strike aircraft. Mako has quietly gone away. No customers, so it's been dropped. Right about the T-50 (or its single seat version), though.

Hawk 200 may not be available any more, since the current production Hawk 120+ is significantly different from the old Hawk 100. BAe would have to do a Hawk 220, by applying the Hawk 200 changes to the new airframe. Would probably expect the customer to pay the development cost, unless they saw a good chance of other sales, & there doesn't seem to be much of a market for such aircraft now.

Cheaper - much cheaper - to buy L-159, if you're looking for a trainer-based light fighter. Grifo radar, AIM-9, various PGMs integrated & more could be - and no need to wait for it to be built, as the Czechs have some spare. Secondhand but not used. Desperate to sell.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Why not just buy something with plenty of life in it. A F-35..

Then NZ could particpate in front line missions internationally, work with US, UK and Australia. Not to mention defence of NZ itself. Compatable with Australia's weapon stores. Could be A, B or C varients. B or C could be deployed to UK or US carriers on occasion. Or possibly to Australia's LHD.

While expensive to begin with after inital orders are filled they will get cheaper.

What sort of budget are we looking at? Would 12 F35's fit into it? Over a life time I wouldn't be suprised if the F-35 was cheaper, with a choice of two engines to keep costs down, single engine, wide range of users, etc.
This would be the most sensible option (new generation technology, multi-role, compatibility with our allies, future growth potential and upgradability etc) if we could only afford afford the F35. No doubt the RNZAF would feel the same way (pretty much like in the 1960's when they wanted to follow the RAAF's lead and replace the Canberra with the F111 or second option, the F4, but the govt went for the A4 which was at the bottom of the list. Was still a good aircraft for us though). NZ's isn't a rich country, hence it would be looking for a cheaper aircraft to purchase and operate over the life of the equipment. What I find ironic since the A4's demise in 2001 is that there are so many cheap, second hand aircraft out there, that NZ could well afford (or cheaper new generation advanced trainer aircraft that could work almost as well eg T50, Hawk 200 etc) . You never know, the current govt is big on building ties with European and Scandanavian govt's, if the A4's hadn't been killed off then perhaps second hand Grippens etc could have been (could be?) a go-er. On the other hand our closer defence relations with Australia are very important to the NZ govt and opposition (this is one area where the two main parties are bipartisan - this ANZ CDR relationship mustn't be underestimated), refurbished F18's could also be a go-er in the future. Perhaps the Aust govt would wear the cost of the F18-HUG upgrade to ensure NZ re-establishes an air combat force when they take on their SuperHornets and F35's. Maybe this is what we need to be working on ....
 

Markus40

New Member
A lot depends on the ongoing costs to keep upgrading the F18s and certainly this government wouldnt want to be looking at a service life upgrade on them within a 5-10 year gap. This is the most significant issue with the F18s.
The other factor is the serviceability with keeping a dual engine aircraft properly maintained. Dual engines are more expensive due to their economy and parts requirements and would have to be gas gulping as well. Not something this government would look kindly on. The one thing that is good is its maritime ability and its mission delivery systems which has seen constant upgrades over the years.

However in saying all this NZ does not require this type of aircraft to integrate its force structure. We dont need a heavy air defence squadron but one that combines maritime, air defence and fighter bomber roles all at the same time. For NZ to become a regional power all we need is to fill this gap with a couple of small squadrons of advanced trainers that have the fighter bomber capacity along with a reasonable engagement range.

It is true that the world is swamped with second hand aircraft that could be bought for very good prices thus offsetting the costs of set up proceedures on training pilots and infrastructure which by the way we already have. What we have to remember though in the choice is that NZ is able to get parts quickly and have a supply of them, that the aircraft have good maritime and safety records that they also have good service life abilities to keep them going without expensive maintenance overhalls in the mean time. It is getting the biggest bang for the buck and if the Grippen or F16 fill this role then thats going to be far better. Maybe the F16 may be back on the agenda when National gets back into government.

Yes, its been suggested the Hawk 200 120+ as an example and its this type of aircraft that would be ideal to NZ conditions.


This would be the most sensible option (new generation technology, multi-role, compatibility with our allies, future growth potential and upgradability etc) if we could only afford afford the F35. No doubt the RNZAF would feel the same way (pretty much like in the 1960's when they wanted to follow the RAAF's lead and replace the Canberra with the F111 or second option, the F4, but the govt went for the A4 which was at the bottom of the list. Was still a good aircraft for us though). NZ's isn't a rich country, hence it would be looking for a cheaper aircraft to purchase and operate over the life of the equipment. What I find ironic since the A4's demise in 2001 is that there are so many cheap, second hand aircraft out there, that NZ could well afford (or cheaper new generation advanced trainer aircraft that could work almost as well eg T50, Hawk 200 etc) . You never know, the current govt is big on building ties with European and Scandanavian govt's, if the A4's hadn't been killed off then perhaps second hand Grippens etc could have been (could be?) a go-er. On the other hand our closer defence relations with Australia are very important to the NZ govt and opposition (this is one area where the two main parties are bipartisan - this ANZ CDR relationship mustn't be underestimated), refurbished F18's could also be a go-er in the future. Perhaps the Aust govt would wear the cost of the F18-HUG upgrade to ensure NZ re-establishes an air combat force when they take on their SuperHornets and F35's. Maybe this is what we need to be working on ....
 

Markus40

New Member
Actually you are right in hindsite the F35 could in the long run be cheaper for NZ if we had say 10-12 of them. Over time the F35 will be cheaper to buy and it has all the abilities NZ would be looking for. We dont need many and we could supplement them with say an Advanced Hawk Trainer with maritime and fighter bomber abilities or we could pull the MB339s out of the garage and use the best number of them as a lead in aircraft. Its not a stupid idea.



Why not just buy something with plenty of life in it. A F-35..

Then NZ could particpate in front line missions internationally, work with US, UK and Australia. Not to mention defence of NZ itself. Compatable with Australia's weapon stores. Could be A, B or C varients. B or C could be deployed to UK or US carriers on occasion. Or possibly to Australia's LHD.

While expensive to begin with after inital orders are filled they will get cheaper.

What sort of budget are we looking at? Would 12 F35's fit into it? Over a life time I wouldn't be suprised if the F-35 was cheaper, with a choice of two engines to keep costs down, single engine, wide range of users, etc.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
A lot depends on the ongoing costs to keep upgrading the F18s and certainly this government wouldnt want to be looking at a service life upgrade on them within a 5-10 year gap. This is the most significant issue with the F18s.
The other factor is the serviceability with keeping a dual engine aircraft properly maintained. Dual engines are more expensive due to their economy and parts requirements and would have to be gas gulping as well. Not something this government would look kindly on. The one thing that is good is its maritime ability and its mission delivery systems which has seen constant upgrades over the years.

However in saying all this NZ does not require this type of aircraft to integrate its force structure. We dont need a heavy air defence squadron but one that combines maritime, air defence and fighter bomber roles all at the same time. For NZ to become a regional power all we need is to fill this gap with a couple of small squadrons of advanced trainers that have the fighter bomber capacity along with a reasonable engagement range.

It is true that the world is swamped with second hand aircraft that could be bought for very good prices thus offsetting the costs of set up proceedures on training pilots and infrastructure which by the way we already have. What we have to remember though in the choice is that NZ is able to get parts quickly and have a supply of them, that the aircraft have good maritime and safety records that they also have good service life abilities to keep them going without expensive maintenance overhalls in the mean time. It is getting the biggest bang for the buck and if the Grippen or F16 fill this role then thats going to be far better. Maybe the F16 may be back on the agenda when National gets back into government.

Yes, its been suggested the Hawk 200 120+ as an example and its this type of aircraft that would be ideal to NZ conditions.
Agree, F16 or Gripen etc would be cheaper to purchase and operate, and fullfil the roles that NZ requires (CAS, maritime strike etc) these are important factors.

On the other hand, ex-RAAF F/A-18's shouldn't be written off just yet. Sure, more costly to operate (which will be an issue, but then again the RNZAF's new NH90's are far, far more costly to operate per hour than the UH1H, and the govt accepted this when choosing the NH90). The RAAF F/A18's are equipped with the better APG73 radar system, carry the Harpoon antiship missle, AMRAAM, AIM7/AIM9, LGB's etc and would be ideal for maritime strike, CAS, interdiction, and NZ's other low priority requirement, air to air defence (mind you if I were flying in a RNZAF P3 in a high threat environment, be that the Gulf or SE Asia, I'd be pleased to know our F18's were there alongside to wipe out any air threats)! Being twin engined the F18 would be ideal for the maritime role and flying between Pacific islands over ocean etc. Really they would only be a generation behind the F35 etc. The other good thing is the RAAF has extensive spares, extensive knowledge/skill base and training programmes and simulators etc. Hence help will be on hand for upskilling the RNZAF pilots and support crews. The other advantage is that the RAAF will be able to "quickly" pass on the air combat skills and institutional knowledge that NZ has lost with the demise of the A4's, pilots, ground and armaments crew etc.

The key would be for the RNZAF in time to receive the ex-RAAF FA18's that are being upgraded now/soon by the Aust govt (and in time, as suggested by others in these forums, RNZAF perhaps upgrade to the RAAF F/A-18G when the RAAF takes on the F35. And maybe in time, purchase new F35's once production comes on line and prices drop).

Anyway the Aust govt wears the significant cost here in sellling FA18's upgraded under the HUG programme. Like I say, it might be the political cost to be paid for NZ to re-establish its air combat force (cause it probably won't happen any other way, if it were to be done properly). But in reciprocation, NZ fast jet training joins forces with the Australians in one form or another (be that combined early or advanced jet training etc - leave that to the experts on the forum to talk about). Maybe even all done in Australia apart from basic flying, and apart from some training scheduling (or permanent basing of a small number of training aircraft in NZ for RNZAF/RAAF mountain/terrain flying training and "foreign" country operations/familiarisation/training etc). Let's face it, it is going to be hard for NZ to do this (justify the expense) all on its own now-post cold war. Joining forces with the RAAF, in some way, will ensure that the RNZAF can quickly establish an air combat force, but more importantly retain it, depending on how the political winds are blowing. This is also something similar to what Derek Quigley (govt's independent defence reviewer on policy and projects etc) alluded to recently, where he stated that NZ probably would not have lost its air combat wing if there had been a way (and willingness) to integrate our training with the Australians in the past. I happen to agree with him on this one because it would have been a political minefield for the NZ govt to opt out of such an arrangement back in 2001 etc. Note that I'm talking about shared training, not shared operational structures, as raised by others in other forums, this just wouldn't be possible and practical for a number of reasons (including our so called "independent foreign policy" that NZ govt thinks is what makes us unique)....
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I left off what to do in the short term, as ex-RAAF F18's won't be available for a few years presumably. Keep the MB339's and get them operational. (Sure, would be nice to buy some Hawk 200's etc but that would take years as reports and costings on the aircraft, alternatives, support infrastructure and ground crew training is factored in). Thus also start putting RNZAF pilots and ground crew through the Australian Hawk and Hornet OCU programmes. Buy a few ex-USN Hornets (as the RAAF aircraft are already heavily utilised) to supplement the RAAF Hornets, base them in Aust and some in NZ for training and maybe to get the RNZAF's first squadron operational. Like I've said, Australia is NZ's most important country economically and in terms of defence. We will need their help if we wish to become a true regional power again (i.e. one with credibility and capability). In a similar fashion, the RNZN has benefitted by being drawn closer to the RAN in terms of the ANZAC Frigate project, and politicially with the Project Protector project (sure training is not shared as such) but lets face it the RNZN still has its guns!
 

jase1

New Member
Hi guys,as much as I wish the combat wing had not been destroyed by Left wing Aunty Helen and I do wonder about what might have been if we had gone through with the F16 deal the best bet for our country is to join with Oz in some sort of ANZAC Force,by doing this it gives NZ acess to the legacy Hornet,Super-Hornet,F-35 etc.
Rebuilding the combat wing is a near impossiable dream requiring resources far beyond NZ capilbilties,the joint Labour and Greens effort made sure that it would be.
Even if National do take power the Labour goverment has spent a lot of money on other defence projects so that even if national wanted to restore the fighter wing the dollars will not exist.
Lets join Oz and open up our airspace,bases etc...its a win win for both countries.
I live in Blenhiem and I so do miss the roar of the mighty A-4k but Id be more than happy to have some Super-Hornets belting over my house!
 
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