RAAF F-35 Weapons

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I think we are planning to purchase a dedicated anti radiation missile aka HARM or equivelant. I also think it would be a good idea to buy 4 or 6 Growler kits for the F18F's to use as EW/SEAD assets. Might be worth the investment.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Still, the BPE is generally concidered the favoured design, due to it being bigger and more capable regardless of its fixed wing capabilities. And regardless Australia is in the position to have continous deployable carrier power, where as no one else in the region is (except maybe india). Japan could never politically justify it, China really would need to upgrade its fleet and find the political will to strain US relations, Indonesia doesn't have the capabilities on any level, singapore is much in the same boat but with a much bigger budget. Atleast with singapore has a possible source of motivation because they could train off it. Malaysia doesn't even have that faint motivation. What arms race? With whom? Europe? Russia? America? Australia is already the regional dominent power.

Maybe not a whole "arms race" but if we get a navalised cruise missile or the like then there is a possibility of a neighboring nation getting a siliar capability, be it BM or cruise missile to counter it. It doesent have to be a military wide arms race, just on specific capability, and even indonesia could afford such a purchase.

I like JSOW. It seems to have a great deal of potential, and JSOW-ER is well into its development.

However, JSOW has one big draw back, not compatable with F-35B.Atleast internally. Which means long range stealth strikes are somewhat compromised from carriers other than usa.

JSOW is a cheap option for stand off weapons and is quite versitile. It seems it will be the mainstay of standoff air strikes for US equiped air forces. It doesent have the LO caricteristics of JASSM that make that particular weapon so speccial. Its a good option but JASSM is a better choice for heavily defended targets.

Well JASSM has to be carried externaly on all varients, however its LO charecteristics would probably enable the F35 to reach launch point undetected. In an australian context the JSM (air droppable NSM) has a GPS + inertial guidence system and will have a decent land strike capability, in the 500Kg class and therefore will be able to be carried by the F35B.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I thought JSOW-ER was going have atleast some LO charateristics incorperated into it. I suppose JASSM would be superior in that respect.

Of course if Indonesia obtained a cruise missile, that would completely justify Australia building a missile defense network and SM3.

Ew kits would be worthwhile options anyway. Would certainly make them more useful.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I read the other day on nine msn news that the ADF has just added cluster bombs to its arsenal. Are these likely to be included in the JSF?

Could you provide a link to that?

What the "broadsheet media" is interpreting as "cluster bombs" for ADF, is actually a sub-munition dispensing Artillery round to be bought under MARAP or perhaps Land 17 now if MARAP is no longer.

Basically it's a 155mm artillery round NOT an air delivered bomb and has no relevance to RAAF whatsoever.

Of course the media is not at ALL interested in the specific nature of the munition, nor Army's (NOT "ADF") acquisition of it and MUCH prefers to run a negative story on a supposed "ADF" "cluster bomb" acquisitions...

Yet another example of WHY the mass media should NOT be used as "evidence" for an emotive issue.

 

[Raptor.22]

F-35's are great jets but their weapons aren't so reliable. They only have 4 AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-9X Sidewinders......thats about it.

 

[Rapture]

Could you provide a link to that?

What the "broadsheet media" is interpreting as "cluster bombs" for ADF, is actually a sub-munition dispensing Artillery round to be bought under MARAP or perhaps Land 17 now if MARAP is no longer.

Basically it's a 155mm artillery round NOT an air delivered bomb and has no relevance to RAAF whatsoever.

Of course the media is not at ALL interested in the specific nature of the munition, nor Army's (NOT "ADF") acquisition of it and MUCH prefers to run a negative story on a supposed "ADF" "cluster bomb" acquisitions...

Yet another example of WHY the mass media should NOT be used as "evidence" for an emotive issue.

Thanks for the info AD.

I tried posting the link but I haven’t reached my 15 post count yet.

 

[Aussie Digger]

F-35's are great jets but their weapons aren't so reliable. They only have 4 AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-9X Sidewinders......thats about it.

They "only" have 4x weapons in it's internal bays. Externally they can carry MUCH more, up to a total of 14x AAM's if necessary...

In any case why are the F-35's weapons going to be unreliable? They'll be the same weapons as used by virtually EVERY other Western aircraft...

 

[Aussie Digger]

F-35's are great jets but their weapons aren't so reliable. They only have 4 AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-9X Sidewinders......thats about it.

They "only" have 4x weapons in it's internal bays. Externally they can carry MUCH more, up to a total of 14x AAM's if necessary...

There's also a GOOD chance that F-35 will also be modified in future to carry a "dual rail" AAM launcher internally in future years, giving F-35 a total of 6x AAM's internally.

I'd rather an aerodynamically "clean" F-35 with 6x AAM's than just about ANY other fighter with external weapons...

In any case why are the F-35's weapons going to be unreliable? They'll be the same weapons as used by virtually EVERY other Western aircraft...

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

There's also a GOOD chance that F-35 will also be modified in future to carry a "dual rail" AAM launcher internally in future years, giving F-35 a total of 6x AAM's internally.

on this double rail buisiness, i'm wondering exactly how the're going to make it fit. Are they planning to us a doublerail on the internal hardpoint or the one on the inboard door? If they are planning to use a double rail on the internal hardpoing i'm wonering if the inboard AMRAAM on the double rail will be able to clear the missile on the inboeard door. It sems it will be directly below it. If they are planning to use the inboard door there are two problems, one is the weight restrictions, how strong is that door? Two is the fact that you wont be able to launch the top missile without launching the bootom one. I'm not saying they cant do it i'm just trying to figure out how.

 

[gf0012-aust]

on this double rail buisiness, i'm wondering exactly how the're going to make it fit.

its most likely a folding cantilever

 

[Aussie Digger]

on this double rail buisiness, i'm wondering exactly how the're going to make it fit. Are they planning to us a doublerail on the internal hardpoint or the one on the inboard door? If they are planning to use a double rail on the internal hardpoing i'm wonering if the inboard AMRAAM on the double rail will be able to clear the missile on the inboeard door. It sems it will be directly below it. If they are planning to use the inboard door there are two problems, one is the weight restrictions, how strong is that door? Two is the fact that you wont be able to launch the top missile without launching the bootom one. I'm not saying they cant do it i'm just trying to figure out how.

LM in this quote:

The F-35 will be able carry 4 missiles on internal stations and up to 10 additional missiles on external stations. To look at potential future increases in internal carriage capability, studies have been done to explore the use of advances in launcher technology, however, current mission analysis does not necessitate further exploration of these capabilities at this time.


confirm that the F-35 will carry 4x AAM's internally and up to 10x ATA missiles externally.

They also acknowledge that studies have been conducted to examine whether additional AAM's can be carried internally.

LM further state that they don't believe the F-35's needs additional internal ATA missiles at present, but do not rule out that additional missiles COULD be carried internally if necessary.[/FONT]

Given the apparent room in the A/C model internal weapons bays (2000lbs class weapons) it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that a "dual rail launcher" could be utilised on the internal hardpoint of each bay to provide the 6x AAM capability I mentioned earlier.

Sheer Internet speculation on this matter seems to indicate that A) 6x AAM's WOULD fit internally and B) that F-22 style internal "ejectors" could be utilised to allow for this capability.

Make of this what you will, but L-M certainly don't rule it out. Quite the opposite in fact...

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

There's definatly enough room in the A/C models for 2 AMRAAMS per bay, just might be a bit trickey getting in inboard one to clear the AAM on the door rail is all, but i'm shure this isnt the kind of constraint that would stop this from happening. It would be very usefull however, because if the F35 is carriying weapons externaly its basicaly a long ranged F16 albeit with a much biger payload and much better avionics. Operators like the RAAF will be very interested in such a capability as they will be relying on the platform for air defence.

 

[Aussie Digger]

There's definatly enough room in the A/C models for 2 AMRAAMS per bay, just might be a bit trickey getting in inboard one to clear the AAM on the door rail is all, but i'm shure this isnt the kind of constraint that would stop this from happening. It would be very usefull however, because if the F35 is carriying weapons externaly its basicaly a long ranged F16 albeit with a much biger payload and much better avionics. Operators like the RAAF will be very interested in such a capability as they will be relying on the platform for air defence.

And much better sensor/avionics fit and a BETTER RCS, despite the external stores AND better performance, agility, TWR etc, according to all reports...

In any case, L-M, USAF/USN/USMC doesn't consider that more than 4x AAM's are necessary on the majority of air combat missions the F=-35 is likely to conductanyhow, so it's somewhat irrelevant...

 

[Yasin20]

when they do i hope they fly the jet at the airshow once they have i would like to see it

 

[ELP]

Where the F-35 can get really impressive is on non stealth missions for bug hunts today where smaller munitions (500lb class) for CAS is important. Example for the CTOL:

2x AMRAAM internal stations 5&7
2x GBU-38 as laser-JDAM internal stations 4&8
A twin rack on stations 3&9 for 4x GBU-38 as laser-JDAM
Same for stations 2&10
Don't bother with hanging stations 1&11 if there is no real air threat.

That with the 500lb laser-JDAM gives you a lot of CAS persistence with a 2 ship arriving and reporting to a JTAC. Of course use your imagination with SDB-II.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Forward air controlers will be drewling with the thought of SDB equiped F35's to play with, not to mention the interdiction capability. It'll make an A10 look like a WW2 Typhoon.

As far as the AAM thing. I was wondering how much a couple of ASRAAMS on the wingtips would comprimise the F35's LO at BVR anyway. Considering that the RAAF's F35's wil be tier 3 stealth (1 being B2/F22, 2 being USAF/UNS/USMC F35's, 3 being export F35's) i'm wondering how effective the RAAF's F35's LO will be in the WVR environment? I'm sure most threat radars wont be able to detect the frontal aspect of an ASRAAM at 50+NM, were the F35 will be able to shoot from. If this is the case then why not have the wingtip stations with ASRAAMS and the internal points with 4 AIM120D's. The F35 will still have a big advantage (huge when coupled with the wedgetail) in BVR. In WVR it will probably be vulnerable to IRST detection with or without X band LO (if the threat aircraft survives the long ranged ASRAAM shot which is doubtfull considering its capabilities).

 

[Todjaeger]

Forward air controlers will be drewling with the thought of SDB equiped F35's to play with, not to mention the interdiction capability. It'll make an A10 look like a WW2 Typhoon.

As far as the AAM thing. I was wondering how much a couple of ASRAAMS on the wingtips would comprimise the F35's LO at BVR anyway. Considering that the RAAF's F35's wil be tier 3 stealth (1 being B2/F22, 2 being USAF/UNS/USMC F35's, 3 being export F35's) i'm wondering how effective the RAAF's F35's LO will be in the WVR environment? I'm sure most threat radars wont be able to detect the frontal aspect of an ASRAAM at 50+NM, were the F35 will be able to shoot from. If this is the case then why not have the wingtip stations with ASRAAMS and the internal points with 4 AIM120D's. The F35 will still have a big advantage (huge when coupled with the wedgetail) in BVR. In WVR it will probably be vulnerable to IRST detection with or without X band LO (if the threat aircraft survives the long ranged ASRAAM shot which is doubtfull considering its capabilities).

Are you thinking of the ASRAAM or do you mean AMRAAM? ASRAAM as I understood it is a fairly short-ranged, WVR AAM much like the Sidewinder, and the AMRAAM is for longer ranged engagements in the BVR area. If it's just a pair of missiles, I would imagine it would degrade the LO characteristics of an F-35 somewhat. Whether it would be sufficient to have an effect or not is just speculation. Something else to consider for an F-35 to carry missiles on the wings is the work being done on LO pods to allow the F-22 to carry external stores without comprising LO as much as external stores normally would. If such a system became practical then I could easily see the F-35 being fitted with such a system.

-Cheers

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Are you thinking of the ASRAAM or do you mean AMRAAM? ASRAAM as I understood it is a fairly short-ranged, WVR AAM much like the Sidewinder, and the AMRAAM is for longer ranged engagements in the BVR area. If it's just a pair of missiles, I would imagine it would degrade the LO characteristics of an F-35 somewhat. Whether it would be sufficient to have an effect or not is just speculation. Something else to consider for an F-35 to carry missiles on the wings is the work being done on LO pods to allow the F-22 to carry external stores without comprising LO as much as external stores normally would. If such a system became practical then I could easily see the F-35 being fitted with such a system.

-Cheers

I meant ASRAAM WVR missiles on the wingtips and the bigger (+bigger RCS) AIM120D's in the internal bays. What i meant by the long range is the ASRAAM has a much longer range than the R73/74 and therefore in the WVR environment gives the F35 a first IR missile shot capability. i was just wondering if a pair of small WVR ASRAAMs or AIM9X's on the wingtips would allow for the platofrm to be detected at decent BVR ranges. If not then 4 very long range AIM120D's can be carried internally and the knife fighting stuff can stay on the wingtips. It just doesent seem that likely that a couple of small WVR missiles on the wingtips, especially from the frontal aspect could allow the F35 to be detectedat a reasonable range. Maybe thats why there not worrying about figuring out a way to fit 6 AAM's in the weapons bay, because it wont really matter if youve got your WVR missiles on the wingtips.

 

[Todjaeger]

I meant ASRAAM WVR missiles on the wingtips and the bigger (+bigger RCS) AIM120D's in the internal bays. What i meant by the long range is the ASRAAM has a much longer range than the R73/74 and therefore in the WVR environment gives the F35 a first IR missile shot capability. i was just wondering if a pair of small WVR ASRAAMs or AIM9X's on the wingtips would allow for the platofrm to be detected at decent BVR ranges. If not then 4 very long range AIM120D's can be carried internally and the knife fighting stuff can stay on the wingtips. It just doesent seem that likely that a couple of small WVR missiles on the wingtips, especially from the frontal aspect could allow the F35 to be detectedat a reasonable range. Maybe thats why there not worrying about figuring out a way to fit 6 AAM's in the weapons bay, because it wont really matter if youve got your WVR missiles on the wingtips.

I understand now. I'd thought you were referring to using the ASRAAM in BVR combat and was therefore somewhat confused. You were talking about having a few ASRAAM carried externally and available for use WVR if need be, instead of using up valueable internal storage space carrying them.

-Cheers

 

[rossfrb_1]

troubles with JASSM??

Sorry if already mentioned, but this is news to me

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw070621_1_n.shtml

Janes work is copyrighted (so I was informed), so I'll just post the link.
Apparently recent JASSM test shoots are having less than spectacular results.
Given that JASSM was in the Super Hornet package recently purchased by the RAAF and presumably to be included in any RAAF JSFs - an interesting pickle if it gets cancelled.

rb