If NZ was serious about becoming a regional power we would certainly need our air power squadrons back. I have had a look at the JAS-39 variant and it has good combat range and the other thing is we wouldnt need many of them to have a good air cover. I would say around 12-16 of them. The only thing with the Grppen is it has had some bad press recently due to 5 crashes. So whether its integrity is intact is another issue. The Grippen can carry a maritime strike weapon.
NZDF General discussion thread
- Thread starter NZLAV
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There's also support considerations. If Thomas is lurking, no doubt he will chime in on the problems that the Danes had with getting parts and components for their aircraft. There was a critical supply issue.
I guess you could say the same for all the other aircraft the RNZAF operate, unless they hold stocks for them. No doubt if the Grippen was selected then Grippen parts and components would be held here in NZ as well.
I'd tend to agree about numbers. New Zealand right now needs an operational sqn of 12 Aircraft (11 Single seat and 1 two seat) this would provide maritime strike and CAS. These two roles NZ must have; I don't think NZ needs as a core role interdication and air defence. An operational conversion unit of 6 Aircraft (3 two seat, 3 Single) would provide cover while the sqn was deployed.
Fighter lead in training would be done in Australia.
While I like the Gripen does NZ really need an advanced combat fighter. Would an attack aircraft like the AMX (now really a trainer) be more suitable.
In terms of Anti Ship missiles - Harpoon would be better, if NZ is able ulitise the land attack capability. Other wise longer range would be better.
RBS-15 also offers land attack capability from Mrk. III on so this is not an argument for Harpoon Block II.
Why not something along the lines of a Super Tucano? The anti-ship role could be handled by Harpoon equipped Orions.
In the end anybody who wants to threaten NZ will have the ability to neutralise 12-16 Gripens and with Super Tucanos one would choose an aircraft which would be cheap to operate/purchase and would give NZ the ability to contribute a nice aircraft for COIN operations during oversea deployments in nearly uncontested airspaces.
Why not something along the lines of a Super Tucano? The anti-ship role could be handled by Harpoon equipped Orions.
In the end anybody who wants to threaten NZ will have the ability to neutralise 12-16 Gripens and with Super Tucanos one would choose an aircraft which would be cheap to operate/purchase and would give NZ the ability to contribute a nice aircraft for COIN operations during oversea deployments in nearly uncontested airspaces.
But that was a long time ago, for a different aircraft. What's Saabs performance on that issue nowadays? We should ask the Czechs & Hungarians.
BTW, wasn't it after Sweden had retired the Draken? If so, it's a typical problem with "orphan" types: one must make sure one secures stockpiles of parts while one can.
That's twice in a few posts that a non-American weapon has been underestimated. Ah well, situation normal.
And you can get an upgraded Mk2 with the same capabilities as the Mk3, except for the extra range.
Well, Gripen could be also cheap to purchase. If I'm not wrong, there's some surplus swede A/B models that they are taking out of service. Still a very capable aircraft. And cheap to operate(around 2000 $ per flying hour), there's also a two seater, STOL capabilities - can take off from roads and short strips, requires only 2 mechanics per plane... In a word, perfect for small countries!
And it is a potent weapon, not easily neutralized(superb data-link, small RCS). I think any country would think twice before sending a battle group far from its shores knowing it faces two squadrons of highly potent and modern fighters(well, if you exclude US, that is
).Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
A good idea if you guys were serious about reinstating your combat air arm, ex RAAF F/A18A+. You could get 24 when we get our first batch of F35's, same deal as the skyhawks, except a mutch better capability. They're all AIM120 C7, JDAM, ASRAAM and Harpoon equiped, we would both be operating the same platform for a 3-5 year timeframe which helps your personell, you could train all your pilots and ground crew in aus which would be a hell of alot easier than doing it in sweeden. We pretty much speak the same language. All our spare parts, simulators, even older weapon stocks and i bet you it would be a hell of alot cheaper than Grippen, with a great A2A/A2G/Maritime Strike capability. If you wanted to wait a bit longer you might get your hends on F/A 18HUG which is even more capable. We do eneough personell exchange anyway so the whole thing would be alot easier than a sweedish purchase. With radar and weapons upgrades this platform could be survivable and lethal well into the future.
But i wouldnt worry too much anyway my Kiwi cuz's, because anyone who decides to sent a task force to threaten Aukland or Wellington, is probably going to have to pass through battlespace dominated by 4 squadrons of JORN/MESA backed Harpoon/JSM/JASSM equiped F/A18HUG/SH/PIG/F35's (depending on the timeing) and as much as we might hate each other on the pitch, theres no way were going to let anyone mess with our kiwi bro's!
But i wouldnt worry too much anyway my Kiwi cuz's, because anyone who decides to sent a task force to threaten Aukland or Wellington, is probably going to have to pass through battlespace dominated by 4 squadrons of JORN/MESA backed Harpoon/JSM/JASSM equiped F/A18HUG/SH/PIG/F35's (depending on the timeing) and as much as we might hate each other on the pitch, theres no way were going to let anyone mess with our kiwi bro's!
With how much remaining airframe life? Wouldn't it be a case of flying them on alternate Tuesdays, & very carefully lest bits fell off?
No, No, we are losing the point here. The question is "What could NZ do to become a regional power"? So there is no doubt if that is where the government wants to go then we would need to put back together our Air Combat force. You cant turn round and say "hey you are now a regional power without your squadron of fighter/Bombers" That is a stupid and uncharacteristic ideal.
The issue is not about acqusition its about sustainability. Its in this case with an older A/B model Grippen that we would need a supply line of parts with. I cant be absolutely sure but with an older aircraft parts are harder to find than newer aircraft. They might be cheap but in the long term is it going to be cheap trying to get the parts we need from a line that may have already closed down.
I think the JS model Grippen is a good choice with many countries in Europe who are now operating the variant.
I think the JS model Grippen is a good choice with many countries in Europe who are now operating the variant.
And you can get an upgraded Mk2 with the same capabilities as the Mk3, except for the extra range.
Well, Gripen could be also cheap to purchase. If I'm not wrong, there's some surplus swede A/B models that they are taking out of service. Still a very capable aircraft. And cheap to operate(around 2000 $ per flying hour), there's also a two seater, STOL capabilities - can take off from roads and short strips, requires only 2 mechanics per plane... In a word, perfect for small countries!
And it is a potent weapon, not easily neutralized(superb data-link, small RCS). I think any country would think twice before sending a battle group far from its shores knowing it faces two squadrons of highly potent and modern fighters(well, if you exclude US, that is
Yes well thats good. Having the F35 will keep this region covered by air power for the forseeable future, and thats why i believe basing a squadron of F35s here would make a whole lot of sense.
A good idea if you guys were serious about reinstating your combat air arm, ex RAAF F/A18A+. You could get 24 when we get our first batch of F35's, same deal as the skyhawks, except a mutch better capability. They're all AIM120 C7, JDAM, ASRAAM and Harpoon equiped, we would both be operating the same platform for a 3-5 year timeframe which helps your personell, you could train all your pilots and ground crew in aus which would be a hell of alot easier than doing it in sweeden. We pretty much speak the same language. All our spare parts, simulators, even older weapon stocks and i bet you it would be a hell of alot cheaper than Grippen, with a great A2A/A2G/Maritime Strike capability. If you wanted to wait a bit longer you might get your hends on F/A 18HUG which is even more capable. We do eneough personell exchange anyway so the whole thing would be alot easier than a sweedish purchase. With radar and weapons upgrades this platform could be survivable and lethal well into the future.
But i wouldnt worry too much anyway my Kiwi cuz's, because anyone who decides to sent a task force to threaten Aukland or Wellington, is probably going to have to pass through battlespace dominated by 4 squadrons of JORN/MESA backed Harpoon/JSM/JASSM equiped F/A18HUG/SH/PIG/F35's (depending on the timeing) and as much as we might hate each other on the pitch, theres no way were going to let anyone mess with our kiwi bro's!
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
It has been unlikely that anyone would want to directly attack NZ, so Govt's since WWII haven't had the need to equip its forces adequately for this possibility. This also plays into the peace group agenda of why waste money on armaments that won't see any real use (think of Frigates, Skyhawks, upgraded sub-hunting Orions etc) and makes it hard to convince the general public of the need (and makes it easy for the peace groups to attack the need to have the need etc). It's a vicious circle we're in here. We don't have the issues that Australia faces (nearby countries with different political systems, beliefs, world views etc).Probably none. OK, there are some countries with the abilities to attack NZ with real force. But chances are slim that it will ever happen.
There's not even a good reason to attack it. Atleast I can't think of one. No significant oil and gas resources(possibly clean watter, when that becomes a problem?), far away from anything. Would take a lunatic to try
It already has more then decent maritime strike capability, the RBS-15, as the Waylander suggested. The Mk3 has range of 200 km, and land attack capability. Mk2 is basically same as Mk3, only with less range(around 70 kms, if I'm not wrong)
So what if the geo-political situation changes? NZ is on the verge of great oil and gas explorations/potential in it's southern ocean (to rival the North Sea oil and gas etc). How important will be access to pristine unpolluted fresh water in the Antartic be for those developing countries polluting and poisoning the own waterways (or even developed countries suffering from an industrial accident or sabotage etc)? Aust/NZ are the final outposts for those northern/asian countries seeking the most direct route south (as well as south america, which is the closest landmass to antartica. Is this a realistic problem for the future or simply hypothetical? Methinks once these issues start becoming real, perhaps NZ's govt will seriously reassess the capabilities required to defend/patrol/intercept shipping and aircraft transiting through the area and reinforce its defene arrangements with the US etc.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
lol, i didnt mean to be patronising sorry.
I'm not too shure if i like that idea too much. We need to maintain most of our capabilities in the north to defend the Air Sea gap. Permanantly deploying a squadron in NZ will dilute 1/4 of our force structure, and if we deploy somewere else with a squadron then we've only got 2 squadrons to defencd the whole north of australia. Not a great idea IMO. A better idea would be selling 24 F/A 18HUG's at bargain basement prices with a whole heap of spare parts and training to boot so you guys can keep a squadron of capable fighters over there yourself.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Actually a bunch of them are undergoing structual repair and replacement ATM under HUG and will be airworthy for quite some time. Anyway up untill 2001 the RNZAF was operating a squadron of ex RAAF A4 Skyhawks and god nows how old they were. They might have even been with the carrier Melbourne!!! these would be brand spanking new in comparison. And a quantum leap in capabilities.With how much remaining airframe life? Wouldn't it be a case of flying them on alternate Tuesdays, & very carefully lest bits fell off?
I like both ideas but cant see a Labour government buying them off you. A national government would and i hope to God they do. If not then a rotational small number of F35s wouldnt be impossible IE say 6-10 of them to keep this region in reach.
lol, i didnt mean to be patronising sorry.
I'm not too shure if i like that idea too much. We need to maintain most of our capabilities in the north to defend the Air Sea gap. Permanantly deploying a squadron in NZ will dilute 1/4 of our force structure, and if we deploy somewere else with a squadron then we've only got 2 squadrons to defencd the whole north of australia. Not a great idea IMO. A better idea would be selling 24 F/A 18HUG's at bargain basement prices with a whole heap of spare parts and training to boot so you guys can keep a squadron of capable fighters over there yourself.
But the Gripen A/B is newer than the F-18, & the difference between A/B & C/D is small enough that spares will not be a problem as long as there are C/Ds around. One can turn an A/B into a C/D, or into something in between. Some of the C/D flying now started life as A/B.