RAAF F-35 Weapons
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
IIRC JSOW is being purchased for use as part of the A$6 billion F/A-18F Super Hornet acquisition, along with AIM-9X. I also believe the RAAF is doing testing on the JSOW-ER. With the HUG program, the Classic Hornets are being fitted to carry JDAM, JASSM, etc. I would expect that RAAF plans would have the JSF equipped to carry any of the legacy equipment fitted to the current air fleet. That should work out to most of the J-series weapons and a variety of AAMs, with the US using the AIM-9X and the UK using ASRAAM for close-in AAMs.
-Cheers
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
RAAF is also reportedly interested in the Konsberg NSM anti-ship missile, as a possibility for the JSF and obviously legacy weapons such as JDAM, JASSM etc will be utilised.
Apparently DSTO is about to sign up a development project to help create an -ER variant of the AGM-154 JSOW creating an IR guided standoff weapon, with a 540k standoff range and a 1000lbs warhead that will cost under $350 000 per round...
Something VERY interesting to RAAF by all reports...
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I can understand why! Very nice!
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Opps, forgot about the NSM. The Norweigans are interested in working with Australia on a NSM adaptation for the JSF. Would make sense to me for the RAAF to participate, since I can forsee the NSM replacing the Penguin if/when the RAN starts using the NFH-90. That could even spill over to joint NFH-90 development with Norway as well.
As for the JSOW-ER, I'd thought development work had already started on that, guess I was wrong.
-Cheers
The weapons fit for the JSF is very important to enable it to fulfill it's true potential. Here's what I think RAAF will need and should get:
A2A
- Both ASRAAM and AIM-9X, simply because we will have stocks of both missiles, so hopefully both can be fitted whenever required.
- AMRAAM
Air to ground
- SDB, giving a 110km stand-off range and the versatility to attack multiple targets per sortie.
- JDAM-ER, giving a +70km stand-off range.
- JSOW, giving a +120km stand-off range and larger/variable warhead choice.
- JSOW-ER, giving a +500km stand-off range with larger/variable warhead choice. (Purchased stocks should be approximately half of each of JSOW & JSOW-ER).
- JASSM-ER, having all RAAF existing JASSM upgraded to this version for a +950km cruise missile ability for long range strike missions.
- Joint Common Missile for close support, range 28km.
Maritime
- The jointly developed Naval Strike Missile with range of +240km.
A2A
- Both ASRAAM and AIM-9X, simply because we will have stocks of both missiles, so hopefully both can be fitted whenever required.
- AMRAAM
Air to ground
- SDB, giving a 110km stand-off range and the versatility to attack multiple targets per sortie.
- JDAM-ER, giving a +70km stand-off range.
- JSOW, giving a +120km stand-off range and larger/variable warhead choice.
- JSOW-ER, giving a +500km stand-off range with larger/variable warhead choice. (Purchased stocks should be approximately half of each of JSOW & JSOW-ER).
- JASSM-ER, having all RAAF existing JASSM upgraded to this version for a +950km cruise missile ability for long range strike missions.
- Joint Common Missile for close support, range 28km.
Maritime
- The jointly developed Naval Strike Missile with range of +240km.
Cherry,while i agree with your shopping list, the stand off ranges of some of those systems could result in a regional arms race. Where the poorer country cant afford such accurate long range wpns, what is their alternative? Long range inaccurate wpns? That would have to mean dirty war heads for those wpns to be of any use. By dirty i mean NBC. I think i read somewhere on this forum that ,that was the reason (partly) for the RAAF and RAN not getting Tommahawk.
The ADF some time ago stated that the SDB would be a likely purchase when the JSF enters service, the JDAM-ER will definately happen, I am 99.9% sure that the JSOW will come with the Super Hornets in the next few years, the JSOW-ER is only around 50km longer range than the JASSM that we have already purchased (and have been very open and transperant about with our international neighbours), the only missile on the list I see as a problem is the JASSM-ER which effectively doubles the range of the already purchased cruise missile. The arguement about causing a regional arms race is false IMHO. Simply because we have had a long range bomber for over 30 years now in the F-111, and the purchase of the JASSM is simply the alternative replacement for the F-111, taking the striking range of the Hornets close to the existing range of the F-111. Purchasing the JASSM-ER would take the striking range of the Hornets to just past the range of the F-111. The arguement of an arms race is rubbish. We are simply replacing a long range bomber with short range munitions with a shorter range fighter containing longer range munitions. I seriously hope we go down the lines of the JASSM-ER.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
You are quite correct OF. I remember reading that Indonesia was protesting that the RAAF had selected JASSM (non-ER version) to be fitted to HUG Bugs for a strike role, in place of the F-111s. The government response IIRC was that Indonesia needn't worry, since it was to maintain a strike capacity like the RAAF had with the F-111. Now with the -ER versions, that range might be extended.
The possibility of a regional arms race does exist, though a few countries would need to straighten out their respective economies to really attempt to compete. And they may very well fail trying to compete, particularly if they purchase "big ticket" items, without the gradual buildup of infrastructure, techical support and doctrine.
-Cheers
I agree with what you say re a possible arms race. We have seen in the past what has happened when Indonesia has purchased large quantities of comparatively sophisticated hardware without the "gradual build-up of infrastructure, technical support and doctrine" that you have mentioned, only to see it fall into disuse and decay. One country in the region that could greatly increase defence expenditure if it wished to do so is Australia. I expect Australia would probably win an arms race with Indonesia but the net result would be that both countries would be likely to suffer economically, so an arms race ought to be avoided if possible.
Cheers
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
The only other nation in the region that I feel could actually challenge Australia in an arms race would be Singapore. They have a sizable economy, as well as infrastructure and technical skills in place. In point of fact, I think the RSAF might actually be stronger than the RAAF currently in air combat, albeit the RSAF is scattered around the world. Having said that though, I don't forsee an arms race between the two, given the defence ties (FPDA) with the same going for Malaysia.
Having said that, the only arms race between Australia and Indonesia (or any other country for that matter) that wouldn't bother me would be a competion between teams of military personnel in sporting events ala the Olympics. But that idea is getting rather far afield from the thread topic.
-Cheers
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Does anyone know exactly what the RAAF is going to do about marritime strike while the introduction of the F35 is taking place. AFAIK the JSM (air dropped NSM) will only be available on Block IV Lightnings, and the first batch we are set to get will be Block II. If this is the case then what are we going to do about our marritime strike capability in the mean time???? Is there any possibility of fitting the Harpoon Block II to Block II F35's? It would be a good use of our Harpoon missile stocks. Can the Harpoon be carried internally??? If not i'm sure it wouldnt be hard to install the missile systems for external carriage.
If this aproach is not taken, what will we do with our harpoon missile stocks????
If this aproach is not taken, what will we do with our harpoon missile stocks????
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I was under the impression that was part of the reason behind the BACC/SH order. The SH would, with J-series weapons (and Harpoon, etc) provide strike/maritime strike until the F-35 is actually in service. There will also still be the AP-3C that can carry Harpoons. As for use of existing Harpoon stocks, not sure that inventory surplus is a concern.
-Cheers
I thought JSOW-ER was already well into development and it was now at the stage of testing and working out minor issues. I thought existing stocks would also be upgraded from a kit.
Who can enter a regional arms race with Australia? Nobody. Sure Australia is at its weakest as it has to replace so many bits of equipment. But still we have our F-111 working fine, our F-18's, our subs, our surface navy, AEW, attack tigers, JORN etc. Singapore would struggle to match all that.
In the next 15 years we will take a huge stride forward. In 15 years Australia will have two 27,000 ton amphibious ships that can operate stealth fixed wing fighters which can inturn be fitted with long range munitions, at least 3 destroyers, upgraded sub program well underway, new artillary, Wedgetail should be fully operational well before then, SM-3 seems likely, etc.
Unless indonesia gets two carriers, a fleet of destroyers, some old SSN's, 70-80 ~Sk-30's, etc I don't think Australia has to be worried. No one bar the Japanese and the Chinese would be able to match that. Neither of those have carrier power, neither have much in the way of long range projection and most have the entire resources tied up defending against other regional threats, namely themselves, north korea, south korea etc. Both have good relations with Australia and rely on Australia for trade.
With the amphibious ships and hopefully F-35bs with long range munitions, Australia will have tremendous reach to ensure peace regionally.
Who can enter a regional arms race with Australia? Nobody. Sure Australia is at its weakest as it has to replace so many bits of equipment. But still we have our F-111 working fine, our F-18's, our subs, our surface navy, AEW, attack tigers, JORN etc. Singapore would struggle to match all that.
In the next 15 years we will take a huge stride forward. In 15 years Australia will have two 27,000 ton amphibious ships that can operate stealth fixed wing fighters which can inturn be fitted with long range munitions, at least 3 destroyers, upgraded sub program well underway, new artillary, Wedgetail should be fully operational well before then, SM-3 seems likely, etc.
Unless indonesia gets two carriers, a fleet of destroyers, some old SSN's, 70-80 ~Sk-30's, etc I don't think Australia has to be worried. No one bar the Japanese and the Chinese would be able to match that. Neither of those have carrier power, neither have much in the way of long range projection and most have the entire resources tied up defending against other regional threats, namely themselves, north korea, south korea etc. Both have good relations with Australia and rely on Australia for trade.
With the amphibious ships and hopefully F-35bs with long range munitions, Australia will have tremendous reach to ensure peace regionally.
You're making an assumption, presumably based on what you want to happen. If the RAN chooses the Armaris design, they'll be smaller, & won't be suitable for operating any fixed wing aircraft.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
But the first batch of F35's will only have navalised JASSM as its maritime strike weapon, and we're set to buy a whole bunch of block II's, AFAIK 50 odd. If thats the case then the JASSM seems to be a verry expensive single option, and were not set to get any navalised versions yet. Unless the RAAF planns to do some upgrade work as soon as we get the Block II F35's and intergrate JSM, which would be a little hard with a system we just got our hands on, not impossible just hard. The JSOW C has an infared seeker but uses a two way datalink and "man in the loop" to achieve pinpoint accuracy. I wonder if the RAAF & TI could work on a shipbuster, ER version??? It would be a cost effective soloution as the weapon will allready be carried by the Block II F35's. Perhaps a better option would be to get LM's assistance in intergrating the JSM on the Block II's streight up.
As for the suprluss inventory, what exactly does the RAAF do with exess missile stocks anyway???? What happens to all the AIM 7's, AIM 120A's, AIM 120B's, AIM 9L's, AIM 9M's, Harpoons when we get JSM ext ext ext. What do we do with all of these stocks? Only buy limited numbers of new missiles and keep the old ones just in case???
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
I wouldn't be supprised given the F35's exeptional CAS capabilities. If they're not PGM then for shure.
nz enthusiast
New Member
How about dealing with enemy SAM systems? Just rely on JSOW, JASSM etc or get a anti-radiation missile?
True, should have said "possibly if many certain decisions are made". I cant help but get excited about the very real prospects.
Still, the BPE is generally concidered the favoured design, due to it being bigger and more capable regardless of its fixed wing capabilities. And regardless Australia is in the position to have continous deployable carrier power, where as no one else in the region is (except maybe india). Japan could never politically justify it, China really would need to upgrade its fleet and find the political will to strain US relations, Indonesia doesn't have the capabilities on any level, singapore is much in the same boat but with a much bigger budget. Atleast with singapore has a possible source of motivation because they could train off it. Malaysia doesn't even have that faint motivation. What arms race? With whom? Europe? Russia? America? Australia is already the regional dominent power.
I like JSOW. It seems to have a great deal of potential, and JSOW-ER is well into its development.
However, JSOW has one big draw back, not compatable with F-35B.Atleast internally. Which means long range stealth strikes are somewhat compromised from carriers other than usa.