NZDF General discussion thread

[Markus40]

I agree with you and dont displace anything on what you say. Anything to add to our Naval Forces in question is a major contribution to our overall Naval capabilities.

However, i really dont think the government will make an about turn and purchase Corvettes when the OPVs in many ways can conduct and operate in the same way Corvettes do. I just think its a pity that the OPVs are not armed as well as the traditional Corvettes are. And the thing is they could be. The OPVs are very flexible for the tasks they are designed for and can conduct a wide range of operations. They have the range and have the additional advantage of the Seasprite.

Keeping the the OPVs without purchasing the Corvettes would be a more sensible and logical desision to make if we are able to beef up the defence options on the vessels. This would also in turn not require additional funds for more vessels, and to find more sailors to man them. This would also mean that NZ can return to a 4 front line Naval Force that compliments the ANZACs. I would also assume it would be cheaper to beef up the OPVs than to purchase another ANZAC or Frigate, however if the government did add another Frigate then that too would make good sense to the overall operations of the Navy. Cheers.

I've been thinking on an off about this for a few years now, so here's may take.

In 1947, when NZ formulated its frigate navy policy the frigate could be seen as a single role warship with other weapons to round out their capability. For example the Loch were ASW, while the Bay class were AA versions. With the RN Tribal class in the 1950's, frigates began to evolve into general purpose warships and increase in speed from the 20kts of WWII. The Leanders, while General Purpose only ever had a limited all round weapons outfit, but were big on sensors.

In contrast a ANZAC frigate capabilities far exceed that of the of even a WWII cruiser in many respects. For example fully armed (with VLS fwd & aft, Towed array, Harpoon) provides a general purpose warship with all round combat capability, capable of operating independently or as part of a larger fleet, where speeds are higher.

The outfit of weapons and growth in sensors reflects changes in technology and naval warfare in part. I would suggest there has also be an incremental increase in the overall capability of frigates due to the decline of traditional fleet units, such as the Cruiser and Destroyer.

It maybe that the term Frigate / Cruiser / Destroyer become a single type of vessel (e.g: Fleet Combatant). All this raises the question of whether the corvette has replaced the frigate as the ship of small nations. By corvette I'm meaning a blue water capable of ship (like the WWI Flower class etc), capable of operating independently in low-medium level operations, rather than the high level operations which frigates are designed for.

So for NZ I would suggest maybe we look at the advantages of acquiring 2-2500 tonne corvettes, fitted with a weapons outfit similar to the Leanders, but with reduced sensors (say maybe something like the Floreal or Thetis class), and a speed of around 24kts. In terms of numbers 3-4 Max, in lieu of a 3rd ANZAC.
Advantages I see are

• More survellance capability
• Allow NZ to contribute to its own security etc
• Allow for operations requiring NFS in the South Pacific when ANZAC not available
• Keeps the OPV focused on its core role of EEZ / Resource Protection
• More politically acceptable

Disadvantages

• Increased operating costs and through life costs (including logisitcs, maintanance, upgrade costs) for the navy to absord. I would suspect the cost of operating 2 corvette's would easily exceed 1 ANZAC.
• Manning issues for the navy
  

I don't thing corvettes should replace the ANZAC's but I'm thinking they might be a good complement to them.

Sorry for been so long winded.

 

[recce.k1]

Ok, some really good answers here. So one option might be to keep the two current OPV's focused on EEZ/resource protection and anti-piracy/terrorism etc (and who knows, maybe upgraded with basic self protection one day eg CIWS or 57/76mm gun etc).

Another option floated is to substancially upgrade the current OPV into a well armed Corvette. But how practical would this be now that the ships are building?

Could another option be to keep the two current OPV's for what they are, but purchase another 2 or more Tenix OPV's re-designed to accommodate better weaponry and sensors (and a decent helicopter weapons store as being asked for in other posts) as Corvettes? Presumably by not needing accomodation for up to 30 special forces or troops would provide space for the extra Weapons Operators and technicians etc. Or again, is the Tenix OPV too light at 1600tons to be able to accommodate the heavier weaponry and additional sensors/radars (thus should we be considering off-the-shelf Floreal/Thetis types that are proven etc)?

And as a footnote wasn't there a RNZN plan in the 1980's to reduce to a 2 (or 3) Frigate Navy but with 3 or 4 additional Corvettes replacing the old Taranaki and Otago (presumably before the ANZAC frigate project went ahead)? Sorry to harp on, just wishing to clear up this Corvette issue now once and for all etc.

 

[Lucasnz]

Could another option be to keep the two current OPV's for what they are, but purchase another 2 or more Tenix OPV's re-designed to accommodate better weaponry and sensors (and a decent helicopter weapons store as being asked for in other posts) as Corvettes? Presumably by not needing accomodation for up to 30 special forces or troops would provide space for the extra Weapons Operators and technicians etc. Or again, is the Tenix OPV too light at 1600tons to be able to accommodate the heavier weaponry and additional sensors/radars (thus should we be considering off-the-shelf Floreal/Thetis types that are proven etc)?

If a corvette option is serious consideration then off the shelf would be cheaper in terms of development costs. I think a min of 2000 tons would be required to fit everything, at a baseline level. If were looking at off the shelf the Thetis would be a good option. Comes with all the basics, but as room for Sea Ram or the like and can have modular equipment fitted. Disadvantage as I see it is speed (20kts - I think for a corvette 24 is needed). Advantage Ice Strengthened, low man power with additional accomodation, range (really important for NZ).

And as a footnote wasn't there a RNZN plan in the 1980's to reduce to a 2 (or 3) Frigate Navy but with 3 or 4 additional Corvettes replacing the old Taranaki and Otago (presumably before the ANZAC frigate project went ahead)? Sorry to harp on, just wishing to clear up this Corvette issue now once and for all etc.

Basic NZ naval development history from 1976/77 to now....

*1976 Taranaki laid up due to manpower crisis (again).
*1977 NZ extends his EEZ to 200NM - Taranaki refitted to carry as a resource protection vessel / training ship. Sea Cat removed and 40mm Bofors fitted in lieu.
*1982-4 NZ buys two ex RN Leanders as a replacement to replace Taranaki / Otago. Around this time it was suggested that NZ buy "Patrol vessels" and focus on Submarines as its combat force.
*1984 Loopy Labour Mk 1 gets into power - it increases the size of the Air Force by buying surplus A-4's and a P-3B from Australia. Economy starts to turn to rubbish.
*1985-1986 Labour starts to pursue the ANZAC Frigate project as a replacment for the Leanders.
*1986 Wellington returns to recommission after a 4 year refit (It was like been on a brand new ship).
*1988 Southland's planned refit in the UK cancelled due to political decision.
*1989 Contract for first two ANZAC's signed, with option for two more.
*1990 All Lake Class Patrol craft withdrawn for service (two alreadly in reserve) for disposal, due to lack of crew
*1991 National wins office with a 5 billion dollar cash deficit, but keeps contract for ANZAC's. Winston Peters defers the contract for the addtional two out to 1995 as part of coalition agreement.
*1999 Labour wins office - tells Navy to consider options other than 3rd frigate as part of Maritime Forces review, soon after Project Protector starts.

Corvettes were only put forward as an alternative during the ANZAC Frigate debate. One current Minister actually suggested the Thetis class.

 

[Markus40]

Its highly unlikely the corvette option will be considered now that we have the OPVs. Secondly adding 2 x 2000 ton corvettes is only going to put a strain on man power and will probably give the existing government strange hallucinations over whether they should replace the ANZACs with them.

Its a far better option to look around for systems that would be suitable to upgrade the OPVs with and go from there. I really dont think adding a CIWS or search radar is going to dramatically add more tonnage to the OPV to the point where it effects its operational characteristics.

If a corvette option is serious consideration then off the shelf would be cheaper in terms of development costs. I think a min of 2000 tons would be required to fit everything, at a baseline level. If were looking at off the shelf the Thetis would be a good option. Comes with all the basics, but as room for Sea Ram or the like and can have modular equipment fitted. Disadvantage as I see it is speed (20kts - I think for a corvette 24 is needed). Advantage Ice Strengthened, low man power with additional accomodation, range (really important for NZ).




Basic NZ naval development history from 1976/77 to now....

*1976 Taranaki laid up due to manpower crisis (again).
*1977 NZ extends his EEZ to 200NM - Taranaki refitted to carry as a resource protection vessel / training ship. Sea Cat removed and 40mm Bofors fitted in lieu.
*1982-4 NZ buys two ex RN Leanders as a replacement to replace Taranaki / Otago. Around this time it was suggested that NZ buy "Patrol vessels" and focus on Submarines as its combat force.
*1984 Loopy Labour Mk 1 gets into power - it increases the size of the Air Force by buying surplus A-4's and a P-3B from Australia. Economy starts to turn to rubbish.
*1985-1986 Labour starts to pursue the ANZAC Frigate project as a replacment for the Leanders.
*1986 Wellington returns to recommission after a 4 year refit (It was like been on a brand new ship).
*1988 Southland's planned refit in the UK cancelled due to political decision.
*1989 Contract for first two ANZAC's signed, with option for two more.
*1990 All Lake Class Patrol craft withdrawn for service (two alreadly in reserve) for disposal, due to lack of crew
*1991 National wins office with a 5 billion dollar cash deficit, but keeps contract for ANZAC's. Winston Peters defers the contract for the addtional two out to 1995 as part of coalition agreement.
*1999 Labour wins office - tells Navy to consider options other than 3rd frigate as part of Maritime Forces review, soon after Project Protector starts.

Corvettes were only put forward as an alternative during the ANZAC Frigate debate. One current Minister actually suggested the Thetis class.

 

[recce.k1]

Thanks Lucas and Markus, good to know what the options are (and especially for the recent history of the RNZN)!

I like the bit about "probably give the existing government strange hallucinations", too bad we can't get them to hallucinate about history in WWI and II of raiders taking out ships around our coast and nearby pacific islands (plus those pesky subs that lurked around the harbours before moving to fatter targets in Sydney etc) and have them increase the capabilities of our exisiting air and sea assets (upgrade ASW and Harpoon on both P3's and ANZAC's)!

I think though even the existing govt realises that the ANZAC's fullfill NZ's longer range defence committments and defence diplomacy etc. Corvettes or upgraded OPV's in addition would allow us more hulls in the water for local and regional defence and presence etc. So I wouldn't expect anything kooky to happen but who knows what might happen in another 10 years or so when the ANZAC replacement is on the table and some rag tag coalition govt is put together!!!

 

[Markus40]

Just keep this in the back of your mind when ever a future Labour government comes to power in NZ, is look what they did to Number 75 and Number 2 Squadron. You know Hone Hiki (and no predudice to the Maoris) after finishing a battle turned round and ate their own. Likewise in this case and with this government on the Air Force. Im sure the Labour caucus hates birds.!

Thanks Lucas and Markus, good to know what the options are (and especially for the recent history of the RNZN)!

I like the bit about "probably give the existing government strange hallucinations", too bad we can't get them to hallucinate about history in WWI and II of raiders taking out ships around our coast and nearby pacific islands (plus those pesky subs that lurked around the harbours before moving to fatter targets in Sydney etc) and have them increase the capabilities of our exisiting air and sea assets (upgrade ASW and Harpoon on both P3's and ANZAC's)!

I think though even the existing govt realises that the ANZAC's fullfill NZ's longer range defence committments and defence diplomacy etc. Corvettes or upgraded OPV's in addition would allow us more hulls in the water for local and regional defence and presence etc. So I wouldn't expect anything kooky to happen but who knows what might happen in another 10 years or so when the ANZAC replacement is on the table and some rag tag coalition govt is put together!!!

 

[Defender]

Bit late on this one seeing I've just signed up to the forums...

There's power and there's power. All the New Zealanders need is what they already have. ...And that's a 1st-rate indeed 1st-class military record.

Being British its not about size. ...And most certainly we've proven it and so have the Aussies and Kiwi's.

 

[Markus40]

Depends on what you mean by size. I think you are trying to say is that military Forces should be proportional to the nations military requirements and security.

NZ certainly does have this now, well almost, and what we have is well trained personell. We will lose that of course if we dont have proper updated equipment and aircraft that the NZ Defence Forces can use and train with our allies. So keeping our assets in line with other countries will enable us to have a first rate and first class military capability.

Shooting what was our fast birds out of the sky isnt what i call having a military friendly objective to the overall view of Defence. Just my thoughts anyway.

Bit late on this one seeing I've just signed up to the forums...

There's power and there's power. All the New Zealanders need is what they already have. ...And that's a 1st-rate indeed 1st-class military record.

Being British its not about size. ...And most certainly we've proven it and so have the Aussies and Kiwi's.

 

[NZLAV]

What equipment would NZ need to purchase to be able to hold it's own against a country similar to the power of Australia, but a much larger distance away?'

I would say:
60 light tanks
~200 shoulder launched SAM
60 more Javelin
40 SP 155mm

2 more frigates
1 more MRV
2 more OPV's

32+32 fighters
12 AAH

any thoughts?

 

[Aussie Digger]

What equipment would NZ need to purchase to be able to hold it's own against a country similar to the power of Australia, but a much larger distance away?'

I would say:
60 light tanks
~200 shoulder launched SAM
60 more Javelin
40 SP 155mm

2 more frigates
1 more MRV
2 more OPV's

32+32 fighters
12 AAH

any thoughts?

Yes. This is a ridiculous concept.

NZ would need to create an Armed forces MANY times more powerful than it currently does to consider itself possible of "defeating" an armed force of a capability equivalent to that of Australia's.

On a numbers basis ALONE you are significantly "out".

4x Frigates? Australia operates 11 or 12. 11x presently plus 6x subs.

64x fighters? Australia operates 95x odd, etc etc.

 

[Ragusian]

Yeah, but he didn't say to "defeat", but to "hold it's own".
I imagine that means to defend itself properly???

In that case scenario, the best investment would be a couple of modern SSKs, to prevent the probable all-out blockade of the New Zealand by the "country similar to the power of Australia, but a much larger distance away",
since it is the only possible way for such a country to attack/defeat New Zealand, having no aircraft carriers, and being so far away.
However, since New Zealand currently lacks any real and modern fighters, perhaps it would be possible to stage an attack without the need to establish air superiority around NZ? In that case, a squadron or two of JAS 39C/D gripens would be perfect, as they are fast enough to act as interceptors, cheap enough to operate and good enough to make a difference(ESPECIALLY with the RBS-15).

But If you're thinkig of fighting a war with such a country, forget it. The biggest problem would be the distances involved, a true problem even for a country similiar to Australia(military, economy, not size), let alone NZ.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Fast jets with a decent maritime strike capability is what you need, even one squadron would do. Grippens a good chioce, just as long as it has a decent marritime strike weapon, Harpoon Block II perhaps. Apart from that some UAV's would be good to spot the incoming fleet and provide data for AShM launch.

 

[Waylander]

Why to use Harpoons Block II when you can get already integrated RBS-15 Mrk.3?
Should be cheaper to get and use.

In the end how many countries are out there which can even dream of attacking a country like NZ which is so far away from anything as one can dream to get?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Why to use Harpoons Block II when you can get already integrated RBS-15 Mrk.3?
Should be cheaper to get and use.

In the end how many countries are out there which can even dream of attacking a country like NZ which is so far away from anything as one can dream to get?

But would it be as capable????

No the only coutry who could is Australia, and theres about as much chance of that as the US invading canada.

 

[Ragusian]

In the end how many countries are out there which can even dream of attacking a country like NZ which is so far away from anything as one can dream to get?

Probably none. OK, there are some countries with the abilities to attack NZ with real force. But chances are slim that it will ever happen.

There's not even a good reason to attack it. Atleast I can't think of one. No significant oil and gas resources(possibly clean watter, when that becomes a problem?), far away from anything. Would take a lunatic to try

Grippens a good chioce, just as long as it has a decent marritime strike weapon, Harpoon Block II perhaps.

It already has more then decent maritime strike capability, the RBS-15, as the Waylander suggested. The Mk3 has range of 200 km, and land attack capability. Mk2 is basically same as Mk3, only with less range(around 70 kms, if I'm not wrong)

 

[Waylander]

Maybe Australia could be so upset about a lost Rugby game that they decide to wipe it out.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Maybe Australia could be so upset about a lost Rugby game that they decide to wipe it out.

lol maybe. Too bad most of us dont even like rugby. We play our own game!!!:
If they beat us at cricket maybe, but thats a longshot

 

[dioditto]

lol maybe. Too bad most of us dont even like rugby. We play our own game!!!:
If they beat us at cricket maybe, but thats a longshot

Oh GAWD. NOT ANOTHER AFL FAN.
:

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Oh GAWD. NOT ANOTHER AFL FAN.
:

DAMN STREIGHT!!! Union i can handle but leuge YUK!! its like gridiorn for retards. up and back up and back. Sorry you new south welshmen!!!

 

[swerve]

But would it be as capable????
.

I expect so. It has GPS/INS, snazzy seeker (radar & IIR - very fancy), longer range than Harpoon Block II.