F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped
- Thread starter LancerMc
- Start date
If i were Japan i would be signing up to the JSF program and getting the first aircraft off the production line.
If Japan signed the Eurofighter deal now they would be lucky to receive a squadron by atleast 2010. If they wanted to assemble the aircraft in Japan they would be lucky to have a squadron by atleast 2012. If they wanted to manufacturer most of the parts themselves they wont have a squadron until atleast 2014.
2014 Japan could have a full squadron of F-35's if they buy LRIP aircraft. So no time delay compared to producing the Eurofighter in Japan.
If Japan signed the Eurofighter deal now they would be lucky to receive a squadron by atleast 2010. If they wanted to assemble the aircraft in Japan they would be lucky to have a squadron by atleast 2012. If they wanted to manufacturer most of the parts themselves they wont have a squadron until atleast 2014.
2014 Japan could have a full squadron of F-35's if they buy LRIP aircraft. So no time delay compared to producing the Eurofighter in Japan.
Bit late for that - 2002 was the drop dead date - why Australia signed up as a 1% partner before the cut-off and before the finalisation of the Air 6000 process (though it was 75% though and all signs pointing to JSF anyway).
Japan can still do this and some non-partners (most likely Israel and Singapore that have paid for observer status) have indicated they may take LRIP aircraft. The Block IIIs with the 'all singing all dancing' capability will not be IOC until 2015ish.
But seriously where's the high end Asian inter-state war going to happen between 2010-15? North Korea maybe but a F-15A is still capability overmatch to them. China and Russia won't start anything until much later (if ever).
kinggodzilla87
New Member
I dont think so
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2005101192214.asp
Recently, a Chinese surface group was detected by a Japanese P-3C in disputed waters near the Senkaku Islands. The group, which consisted of a Sovremenny-class destroyer, two Jianghu I-class missile frigates, a replenishment ship, and a missile observation support ship, was a reasonably powerful force. It does lead to the question:
Mmmm so China is willing to sail a naval task group within 1,000 km of their shoreline? This does not mean war... more like situation normal. China has been contained to their coastline for decades by the US and is only now just starting to stretch quite normal muscles.
For China to go to war with the West would result in an overnight collapse of their economy without a shot being fired – due to their huge reliance on international trade for wealth generating exports and resource imports. If they wish to go to war it’s going to be over something far more important than some rocks in the Pacific.
The real world is not written by the likes of Tom Clancy and Clive Clussler, China has stronger reasons than the west to avoid war. Just because they are building their military capability – though still severely at a disadvantage – is more to do with natural growth and a desire to secure their own littoral and traditional borders.
It will be decades if not centuries before China could stand a chance of defeating the US in Asia.
Nice: you compare receiving LRIP (at premium prices) F-35 direct from the USA, with taking the time to set up a production line for Eurofighter. Not exactly an honest comparison.
As you know (or should), their timescale is perfectly compatible with Japanese manufacture. There is no reason why Japan could not start off receiving Eurofighters fully assembled, & progress through assembly of CKD kits to full manufacture. Steady flow, starting as their first Phantoms have to retire & carrying on until they're all done. That is not possible with F-35. There is a time delay, & a critical one. They can't get the first arcraft off the production line because they're spoken for. They might be able to bump someone else back a bit & get some LRIP, by paying extra, but's that the best they can do, & it carries much greater risks than buying something which is already in production.
Chug a lug.....
AIR6000 Phase 1 Stage 3 - the force mix option analysis and evaluation - had not even been approved (funding wise) before the decision to join the SDD Phase of the JSF Program. It was to go before the DCIC in September 2002 for funding approval, following evaluation of the results from the Requests for Information and the Force Mix Option Market Survey which were all issued in the last quarter of 2001.
DSTO had not even worked up the analysis methodologies when the decision was made to go down the JSF path.
Of, by the way, no threat analyses had been done, either.
nfloorl:
Mod edit:
Magoo is right.
PM him if you want to discuss things personally.
Talk about believing one's own propoganda.
AIR6000 Phase 1 Stage 3 - the force mix option analysis and evaluation - had not even been approved (funding wise) before the decision to join the SDD Phase of the JSF Program. It was to go before the DCIC in September 2002 for funding approval, following evaluation of the results from the Requests for Information and the Force Mix Option Market Survey which were all issued in the last quarter of 2001.
DSTO had not even worked up the analysis methodologies when the decision was made to go down the JSF path.
Of, by the way, no threat analyses had been done, either.
nfloorl:Mod edit:
Magoo is right.
PM him if you want to discuss things personally.
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A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I for one am glad they finished AIR-6000 when they did and didn't waste any more time and money on it.Talk about believing one's own propoganda.
AIR6000 Phase 1 Stage 3 - the force mix option analysis and evaluation - had not even been approved (funding wise) before the decision to join the SDD Phase of the JSF Program. It was to go before the DCIC in September 2002 for funding approval, following evaluation of the results from the Requests for Information and the Force Mix Option Market Survey which were all issued in the last quarter of 2001.
DSTO had not even worked up the analysis methodologies when the decision was made to go down the JSF path.
Of, by the way, no threat analyses had been done, either.
Afterall:
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Given that there is an enormous volume of open source material now available which details these issues it is now an irrefutable fact that Defence have lost the capability to objectively analyse and understand capabilities in contemporary and future air power in the region. The Minister's statements are proof of this.”"
nfloorl:[/FONT]
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OT I know, but...
Is this opening up dangerous ground?
Many of us here choose to use a pseudonym (or 'handle') because we are either in a position where we shouldn't necessarily be talking about things we know, or have been told things by people who shouldn't have done so, or the opinions expressed are personal and not necessarily those of the organisations we work for.
Although many on this board know who I am, the opinions I express are mine and not those of the publication I write for. I'm sure AGRA is in the same boat, and I suspect you are as well Occum.
Perhaps the mods can make a ruling on this matter?
Cheers
Magoo
Mod edit:
Sorted and will be watched in future.
Is this opening up dangerous ground?
Many of us here choose to use a pseudonym (or 'handle') because we are either in a position where we shouldn't necessarily be talking about things we know, or have been told things by people who shouldn't have done so, or the opinions expressed are personal and not necessarily those of the organisations we work for.
Although many on this board know who I am, the opinions I express are mine and not those of the publication I write for. I'm sure AGRA is in the same boat, and I suspect you are as well Occum.
Perhaps the mods can make a ruling on this matter?
Cheers
Magoo
Mod edit:
Sorted and will be watched in future.
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Spending millions on a flyoff is a waste of tax payers money.
Considering the F-22 isn't available the only aircraft that would be serious contenders in the flyoff would be the Eurofighter, Rafale, F-35 and F-15SG. The F-35 will be so far ahead of the competition that even my mum would pick the F-35.
Considering the F-22 isn't available the only aircraft that would be serious contenders in the flyoff would be the Eurofighter, Rafale, F-35 and F-15SG. The F-35 will be so far ahead of the competition that even my mum would pick the F-35.
@rjmaz1 Are youre mum and yourself not more qualified at ironing than describing aircrafts in an accurate and technical maneer? (Joke)
Its YOUR opinion right?
I think the RAF Typhoon pilots are more qualified and when they say only F-22 is better (beside ours which is some they wouldn't reconoitre even if the datas were wraped around a brick and hit them between the eyes) well i tend to believe their specialist conclusions above yours and that of your mum, no disrespect...
Depending in which role you want to use it, it's either F-22 or F-35 but for BOTH F-22 with developed A2G capabilties will be far better.
Just hope they're playing you in the US and that sometime soon they'll sell the Raptor to you because othwerwise anyone buying Typhoon/Rafale will have the capability to stop yours very soon...
(Joke)Its YOUR opinion right?
I think the RAF Typhoon pilots are more qualified and when they say only F-22 is better (beside ours which is some they wouldn't reconoitre even if the datas were wraped around a brick and hit them between the eyes) well i tend to believe their specialist conclusions above yours and that of your mum, no disrespect...
Depending in which role you want to use it, it's either F-22 or F-35 but for BOTH F-22 with developed A2G capabilties will be far better.
Just hope they're playing you in the US and that sometime soon they'll sell the Raptor to you because othwerwise anyone buying Typhoon/Rafale will have the capability to stop yours very soon...
The stealthier fighter is probably going to win. Most of all the stealthier fighter with the excellent avionics package in it, with the excellent internal fuel load, the excellent payload capacity, outstanding network'icity, very good reliability. The F-35 Lightning-ll is simply the future.
One of the reasons its "the future" is because the Yank, and allied, air forces, in recent years, have shown the viability of the strike doctrine as being a war winner. Forget the air show performances, and the peacetime exercises, we have shown in recent years that there is no substitute for attacking the enemy where he lives and targeting his air defense, air force, leadership, transportation, industry...ect Most of all his air force.
And the F-35 is the strike aircraft that's going to get the job done better then any of the others. Its degree of stealth is also going to give it a crucial edge in the ATA role, as well as its outstanding AESA radar.
There's a reason why the makers of the Euro-canards are trying to make their airplanes more stealthy, and why they are talking up their LO. The French have been whittling at the edges of the Rafale, trying to make it more LO, since the thing first rolled off the line. If these E-canards had such a warfighting edge then why would they be doing that?
Your right, the Lightning is such an obvious choice that a flyoff would be a waste of money. Your talking about "another Yank" warplane thats going to be in production for 30+ years, and exported to over a dozen other nations, so you have to ask yourself "why is that"?
And the answer is nobody has figured out how to really beat stealth yet and nobody will in the near future.
Sure there is but none that you apparently are aware of.
Very funny, i suppose you dont READ squadron reports on the use of OSF and how they can actually conduct totally passive BVR intercepts without using their radar AT ALL, including 100% ID of the targets from 2000 to 40.000 ft, strikers and escort alike.
If you're out-there they'll FIND you, then SHOOT you totally passively, expecially if you are stock in subsonic or have to use your Bruners to go supersonic.
The only aircraft with a window of engagement narrow enough is F-22 thanks to its high supercruise speed, the rest are targets waiting to get shot.
EM L.O or not there is NO way you can escape a proper optronic system and an IR BVR AAM.
EM stealth is on its way OUT and this is a FACT for us since the first test fly of OSF in 1999, the other fact is that you still live on the cave age of aviation i'm sorry to say, believing that "nobody" got a better idea of the subject than YOU do.
But it's not everyone case and this is the lastest FACT i know of; stealth is already been beaten and facts it aslo is getting worse.
Oh My God, now what is he babbling about? BKNO just for once post one of your "beyond top secret" little secret reports you are always hinting at, along with your super top secret position and qualifications. Again, that you are always hinting at.
Who is going to "find you"? And who says "stealth is on its way out"? Post names and links!
We are simply in the latest round of the battle of the waves that's been around since the inception of radar. If "stealth was on its way out" then why would your Govt. spend so much money on lowering the RCS of your latest aircraft?
Then again why am I even talking to you? To any other Frenchman here please accept my apologies over calling the Rafale "The flying rat". They are aimed at BKNO exclusively due to his arrogance, inflexibility, unsubstantiated claims, rudeness, babbling, and assorted nonsense.
Who is going to "find you"? And who says "stealth is on its way out"? Post names and links!
We are simply in the latest round of the battle of the waves that's been around since the inception of radar. If "stealth was on its way out" then why would your Govt. spend so much money on lowering the RCS of your latest aircraft?
Then again why am I even talking to you? To any other Frenchman here please accept my apologies over calling the Rafale "The flying rat". They are aimed at BKNO exclusively due to his arrogance, inflexibility, unsubstantiated claims, rudeness, babbling, and assorted nonsense.
source:- http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2007/05/ncade-an-abm-amraam/index.php
see this image
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_B-2_Close_View_IR.gif
B-2 Spirit stealth bomber, lifted from EADS Eurofighter's presentation to the Norwegian government.
Well theres one that may find you..
Cheers
@JWCook
What a surprise, a Pirate shoot!!!
Is Europe kicking back by any chance? Vive l'entente cordiale!!!
Good luck with the Australian (futur) Eurofighter bid mate.
Could you pass my respectsd to Tarnish please? Thanks...
To the rest of the board, we all know that (we) the French are full of wind particularly myself, more that than in a can of beans, i mean naming an aircrafts Rafale what an idea, how about Typhoon now???
What a surprise, a Pirate shoot!!!
Is Europe kicking back by any chance? Vive l'entente cordiale!!!
Good luck with the Australian (futur) Eurofighter bid mate.
Could you pass my respectsd to Tarnish please? Thanks...
To the rest of the board, we all know that (we) the French are full of wind particularly myself, more that than in a can of beans, i mean naming an aircrafts Rafale what an idea, how about Typhoon now???
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It would need more than good luck for Australia to get the Typhoon.
As for the picture I'd like to see the rest of the presentation, as the context for the picture is just as important.
And heres a little tidbit\rumour that I won't backup with any sources that I'm willing to mention :-
Pirate is supposed to have detected and tracked a F117 at well beyond BVR missile range (i.e. a 3 figure km range).
Make of that what you will.
I'll pass on your regards
.As for the picture I'd like to see the rest of the presentation, as the context for the picture is just as important.
And heres a little tidbit\rumour that I won't backup with any sources that I'm willing to mention :-
Pirate is supposed to have detected and tracked a F117 at well beyond BVR missile range (i.e. a 3 figure km range).
Make of that what you will.
I'll pass on your regards
Well in view of the amount of mythology around everything US i'm not surprised...
True that.
John (If you allow me this familiarity) I.ve been following the thales Optronic buzziness for years, i'm NOT surprised, what i wonder is WHY Pirate was allegedly not fitted to the Typhoon flown vs the Raptors in the US???
That will be a good subject for further researches.
Thanks.
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/dga/votr...un_capteur_optique_unique_au_monde_recompense
Try this one it is in French but i trust you'll make the best of it...
No worries - you can call me John
, but you have me at a disadvantage, What shall I call you? BKNO sounds so formal?The two recently deployed aircraft were photographed without Pirate, its apparently an easy mechanical fit, so it would have been possible to test it there software permitting, but AFAIK it wasn't used, even without it they caused quite a kerfuffle.
There very little information re whats happening over there, its all very cloak and dagger, or off record comments etc, My guess is that any leaks would upset lots of carefully crafted perceptions.
Thanks for the link, optoelectronic is expanding rapidly at present, processing power is relatively cheap, couple that with multi spectral capability and it could be a tremendous advantage in the right conditions.
Pirate looks good, but it bl00dy well should for the price.
Cheers
The name is Marc, ex-Pprune bad apple so you know me under another callname already...
BKNO was that of one of the first Piper-Cubs i flown solo back in 75.
I know that well, and it come as no surpise to me but not using Pirate was an handicap for the Typhoon pilots as they lost much of their L.O detection capabilties.
They do upset a few people yes.
That's the idea after all, Q: Is there any plans in the UKs for an IR (longer ranged than AIM-132) BVR AAM in the future???
That's the cost of a second radar capability...
No problem.
>>>>>From NASA with love....
In the mid-1970’s the U.S. Air Force became interested in a fighter aircraft capable of “supercruise”—the ability to cruise supersonically without an afterburner while retaining respectable maneuver, takeoff, and landing characteristics. The supercruise requirement drove aircraft configurations to highly swept wing platforms. LMTAS appreciated the fact that the modular construction of the YF-16 allowed for relatively simple replacement of the outer wing panels and that a supercruiser demonstrator aircraft with a highly swept wing would undoubtedly attract considerable interest within the Air Force.
http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Partners/F_16.html
We relied on the NASA Langley Unitary Tunnel to provide the final supersonic drag and stability and control data that were used for performance predictions and the flight control law design. We demonstrated supercruise on both the GE and P&W-powered prototypes as predicted. The supersonic drag determined from flight test agreed within one percent of the predictions that were made using the Langley Unitary Tunnel data. The supersonic flying qualities were rated excellent; we flew to 15¾ angle of attack supersonically; and we did 360¾ full-stick rolls demonstrating excellent roll rates and roll response.
http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Partners/F_22.html
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