French SSN Programme

[Falstaff]

Now hold on a second...

1. Although little is known about the Barracuda from first drawings it appears to have a more modern shape than the Astute class subs, it shares some hydrodynamical features with recent submarines like the German U-212A class. I'm not so sure about it being more useful in littoral waters though.
Although an X-rudder is more suitable for shallow waters (lower draft) it seems the Barracuda doesn't have bow or sail rudders which provide very good depth steering capabilities. The Astute has a bow rudder, so I guess in terms of shallow water operations, I can't see any advantage for the Barracuda class. Or will it have retractable rudders?

2. Size does matter... at least if you need room for noise reduction measures. I'm very surprised about the French engineers' braveness as rumours go the Rubis resembles a submerged fleet oiler in terms of noise profile. Some of these noise reduction measures are very bulky and it remains to be seen if a 85m vessel is big enough, even if the new reactor is very small.
BTW, I think the Brits did wise with designing the Astute with a big weapon load. When involved in a land strike operation you'd be rather pissed if you ran out of ammo too soon...

3. We all know about the difficulties the Brits had with their program and their engineering gap. The French did better bridging the time between two designs with e.g. messing with us in the SSK export market. However, I reckon they (the Brits) solved these issues and the Astutes will be doing their jobs very well.
And I'd place a very high bet that the Barracuda program will have delays and will have cost overruns. That's just the way it goes with such complex programs.
In the end we'll have two very capable European SSNs, and that's great!

4. The 2076 type sonar is by far the best sonar suite that's in the water today. It's remains to be seen if the Barracuda really will be a generation ahead in that respect. I dare doubt it, sorry.

5. In my world if you have a reactor that doesn't need to be refuelled during lifetime that's a plus.

 

[BKNO]

Falstaff Although an X-rudder is more suitable for shallow waters (lower draft) it seems the Barracuda doesn't have bow or sail rudders which provide very good depth steering capabilities. The Astute has a bow rudder, so I guess in terms of shallow water operations, I can't see any advantage for the Barracuda class. Or will it have retractable rudders?

X-rudders allow for a much tigghter turning radius according to DCN.

Astute is a heavier version of a sub which design was optimised for Blue waters ops and reputably unmaneuvrable.

Falstaff Size does matter... at least if you need room for noise reduction measures.

That's WHY Barracuda reactor have been redesigned.

Falstaff I'm very surprised about the French engineers' braveness as rumours go the Rubis resembles a submerged fleet oiler in terms of noise profile.

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/smarins/amethyst/caracter.htm

Améthyste solved the problems long ago, the curent generation of SNLEs are among the deepest diving (below 500 m) and quietest inthe world, according to Jane's they have a noise radiation lowert than that of the seabed.

Falstaff Some of these noise reduction measures are very bulky and it remains to be seen if a 85m vessel is big enough,

You really should update your infos as for France's technologic capabilties.

As i said, the actual SNLEs are among the quietest in the wrold more to the point they are built in 100 HLES grade steel, even the US havent managed this so far.

Falstaff even if the new reactor is very small.

As opposed to Astute Barracuda reactor will be sized accordingly, NOT a straight version of the K15.

Falstaff BTW, I think the Brits did wise with designing the Astute with a big weapon load. When involved in a land strike operation you'd be rather pissed if you ran out of ammo too soon...

There are more than one issue with strike launched from submarines, expecially when your comms arent up to it....

Falstaff The French did better bridging the time between two designs with e.g. messing with us in the SSK export market.

They did better with the SNLEs and now with the new generation SSKs.

Falstaff 2. However, I reckon they (the Brits) solved these issues and the Astutes will be doing their jobs very well.

Electric Boat did that for them, they still have a gap in capabilties due to the problem they already had with the low number of qualified designers, engineers, technicians...

France have long put the money where it was needed hence a high level of capabilty and THREE different Submarine types in its catalog...

Falstaff And I'd place a very high bet that the Barracuda program will have delays and will have cost overruns. That's just the way it goes with such complex programs.
In the end we'll have two very capable European SSNs, and that's great!

France is NOT Britain and DGA NOT MoD to start with then again it is still a possiblity.

Falstaff 2. 4. The 2076 type sonar is by far the best sonar suite that's in the water today. It's remains to be seen if the Barracuda really will be a generation ahead in that respect. I dare doubt it, sorry.

I thin you keep ignoring FACTS, technologies is p[rogressing FORWARD.

Thales doesnt wait for MoD to get their acts together and make technologic progresses the best sonar they have is the last they developed...

Falstaff 5. In my world if you have a reactor that doesn't need to be refuelled during lifetime that's a plus.

Using a UNIQUE grade of fuel is a lot more cost effiscient for France as there is NO MORE need for a military grade.

As for Astute and Barracuda systems...

Sonar suites:

Astute = Contract 2076 previous to 1996:

Upgrade = Inboard processing equipment Oct 2006.

Barracuda = Thales UMS 3000 contract at Euronaval 2006.

Combat system:

Astute = Integrated Tactical Weapon system (TWS) contract 1996.

Barracuda = SYCOBS derivated from that developed for the SNLE No4 S619 (LE TERRIBLE) contracted 28 juillet 2000, system still in developement from 2006.

Communications:

Astute = Link 16.

Barracuda = Link 16, Link 21, SATCOM (Syracuse 3).

So to summerise:

Astute comms and systems, TWS/Sonar 2076 are dated from <> two technology generations previous to Barracuda feasability contracts passed by DGA.

Systems architectures rests on a technology developed by the SAME manufacturer when it was still called GEC Marconi and are COMMON with the Updated Trafalgar class.

"Designated the Sonar 2076 Stage 5 programme, this upgrade will replace the existing inboard processing equipment with an open architecture COTS based processing system."

I hardly SEE WHY the British MoD would waste £30M for system if it wasn't needed, more to it, weither UMS 3000 is totally new, 2076 is at its fifth stage of developement.

As for its reactor it IS of a technology contemporrary of that of the S 616 LE TRIOMPHANT class of 1989 weither that of Barracuda is still on still its demonstrator form.

Now you're more than welcome to explain to US how systems developed ten years appart by the same company are going to be equivalent in performances and growth potential...

 

[Falstaff]

X-rudders allow for a much tigghter turning radius according to DCN.

Astute is a heavier version of a sub which design was optimised for Blue waters ops and reputably unmaneuvrable.

That's true and one reason why they've become more common recently. Another really is that they have lower draft. Still, if you want to go into real shallow waters the most important thing is depth steering and that's were a bow or sail rudder is still favourable over a clean bow or sail.

Améthyste solved the problems long ago, the curent generation of SNLEs are among the deepest diving (below 500 m) and quietest inthe world, according to Jane's they have a noise radiation lowert than that of the seabed.

I'm very well aware of the fact that they were upgraded and they were heavily in need for upgrade. Still I reckon that the Rubis subs are too small to employ everything you need for a truely silent submarine.
BTW do you know why the Soviets for example built some of the deepest diving submarines?They did it for a reason and it has to do with noise...

Electric Boat did that for them, they still have a gap in capabilties due to the problem they already had with the low number of qualified designers, engineers, technicians...

As I said we all know about these difficulties. I'm pretty sure however that Britain will deal with it accordingly.
The big question is if countries like France and Britain will be able to afford an industrial base for building nuclear submarines in the future. The financial burdens are evident.
Perhaps this is the last generation of SSNs built by France and Britain alone.

I thin you keep ignoring FACTS, technologies is p[rogressing FORWARD.

Thales doesnt wait for MoD to get their acts together and make technologic progresses the best sonar they have is the last they developed...

Mmh, you seem to assume that a later developed piece is automatically better than the earlier one? I don't know. 2076 sets a very high mark. We'll see.
BTW I rather don't think there will be a direct technology transfer between these two programs. The MoD would be very pissed if so and the DGA vice versa.
In a few years we'll see what the development programs come up with and how it all works out.
And in addition I'm pretty sure the Astutes have an approbriate growth margin built in and will be upgraded accordingly through the years. There's enough room for it

Now you're more than welcome to explain to US how systems developed ten years appart by the same company are going to be equivalent in performances and growth potential...

No, I'm not going to. As I said, we'll have to see what happens. And if you read my previous post carefully I only said "I dare doubt it".

 

[BKNO]

Falstaff That's true and one reason why they've become more common recently. Another really is that they have lower draft. Still, if you want to go into real shallow waters the most important thing is depth steering and that's were a bow or sail rudder is still favourable over a clean bow or sail.

Thats only theorical, ballast are used to balance subs and whatever way you turn it, Trafalgar design is one of the less maneuvrable, Astute being heavier and bulkier can hardly do better......

Falstaff Still I reckon that the Rubis subs are too small to employ everything you need for a truely silent submarine....

They SOLVED the problems didn't they???

Falstaff I'm pretty sure however that Britain will deal with it accordingly.

They have to restructure they whole shipbuilding industry... France doesnt.

Falstaff The big question is if countries like France and Britain will be able to afford an industrial base for building nuclear submarines in the future.

You keep mystaking DGA for MoD. DGA finances have been positive for YEARSD thanks to M.A.M. There is a large diference and France CAN afford its programmes on this basis only.

Falstaff Mmh, you seem to assume that a later developed piece is automatically better than the earlier one? I don't know. 2076 sets a very high mark. We'll see.

There is TEN years of difference between the two.

Falstaff BTW I rather don't think there will be a direct technology transfer between these two programs. The MoD would be very pissed if so and the DGA vice versa.

Design belong to the cunstomers, technologies belong to Thales, they have a common technology database pool for all their bramnches and it is NOT about technology transfert it is about technology cycles.

Falstaff In a few years we'll see what the development programs come up with and how it all works out.
And in addition I'm pretty sure the Astutes have an approbriate growth margin built in and will be upgraded accordingly through the years. There's enough room for it

You seems to sort of wich some problems in the Barracuda programme....

As for the upgrade potential, you didnt properly READ Thales stament on the sonar, there is NONE possible as a simple plud-and-play soplution.

They had to REPLACE the whole inboard processing equipment because Astute systems architectures are based upon a technology dated from TWO generations 1996 compared to 2006...

Falstaff No, I'm not going to. As I said, we'll have to see what happens. And if you read my previous post carefully I only said "I dare doubt it". [ /QUOTE]

Well you wont but you also can't, you only can have doubts in front of reality, that's the whole point.

 

[Falstaff]

Thats only theorical, ballast are used to balance subs and whatever way you turn it, Trafalgar design is one of the less maneuvrable, Astute being heavier and bulkier can hardly do better......

No, if you have a certain (rather low) speed you use the rudders. And although a clean bow is favourable for low noise emissions and sonar performance for depth steering an additional set of rudders is a good idea.
The U-212A class uses an X-rudder as well as a sail rudder, that's because one of the requirements was that it must be able to sail submerged in waters as shallow as 17 metres. That's the same requirement as for the 500 ton U-206 class, it is based on requirements for operations in the Baltic Sea and needs superb depth steering characteristics.
Once again, the Barracuda might have retractable rudders. Do you know if there are any?

You keep mystaking DGA for MoD. DGA finances have been positive for YEARSD thanks to M.A.M. There is a large diference and France CAN afford its programmes on this basis only.

Even if it's true that the DGA is more efficient than the MoD you can't deny France has the same budget problems all western European countries have to face at the moment. See Rafale procurement for example. Building SSNs is very expensive and so my question is a just one, I think.

Design belong to the cunstomers, technologies belong to Thales, they have a common technology database pool for all their bramnches and it is NOT about technology transfert it is about technology cycles.

You're assuming they're inventing the wheel each time?
At my unniversity there was the same research project for two different turbofan suppliers at the same institute at the same time. They build a wall right in the middle of the hall and the engineers were forbidden to speak to each other

You seems to sort of wich some problems in the Barracuda programme....

Je suis desolé mais je ne comprends pas ca...

As for the upgrade potential, you didnt properly READ Thales stament on the sonar, there is NONE possible as a simple plud-and-play soplution.

They had to REPLACE the whole inboard processing equipment because Astute systems architectures are based upon a technology dated from TWO generations 1996 compared to 2006...

Yes ok, but that doesn't mean it can't be upgraded, it means it's more difficult and probably more expensive. But it can be done and they will do it.

Well you wont but you also can't, you only can have doubts in front of reality, that's the whole point.

I have doubts and you're assuming and in the end we'll both see what's the outcome.

 

[BKNO]

Once again, the Barracuda might have retractable rudders. Do you know if there are any?

NOPE i dont but i know Astute is derivated form a design which doesnt have a high degree of maneuvrability.

Even if it's true that the DGA is more efficient than the MoD you can't deny France has the same budget problems all western European countries have to face at the moment.QUOTE]

Well is suggets you inform yourself on the subject.

AGAIN for the past three/four years DGA finances are CLEAN.

Budget increased for the third year in a row.

Falstaff See Rafale procurement for example. Building SSNs is very expensive and so my question is a just one, I think.

Bad example, Rafale developement is FAR more advanced than that of Typhoon.

Falstaff You're assuming they're inventing the wheel each time?

Not assuming, i KNOW what technologies cycles means, they mean results of years of R&D, they mean the difference between pantium II and Pantium III, they mean an increase in computing power of <> X 50 etc.

Falstaff At my unniversity there was the same research project for two different turbofan suppliers at the same institute at the same time. They build a wall right in the middle of the hall and the engineers were forbidden to speak to each other

Well my brother at SNECMA will be happy to lean how you guys are working...

Falstaff Je suis desolé mais je ne comprends pas ca...

You keep writing time and again that you expect problems with this programme, WHY???

Falstaff Yes ok, but that doesn't mean it can't be upgraded, it means it's more difficult and probably more expensive. But it can be done and they will do it.

What it means is that the UK MoD will have to pay a lot for systems upgrades and that there is NO certainty the combat system and comms are going to be upgraded any time soon.

RN Chief of staff requioers new comm levels like link 22 for example for the simple reason that it is a real pain to planify a combine land strike between SSNs and the rest of a coalition force.

Check the level of comms of Barracuda and see for yourself, it is already SATCOM capable.

So the probability of upgrades vs cost is highwer in the future for the Barracuda simply because Astute cost have risen and its service entry sliped significantly.

Falstaff I have doubts and you're assuming and in the end we'll both see what's the outcome.

I'm making NO assumptions, I only look at facts as they are.

 

[Falstaff]

Well is suggets you inform yourself on the subject.

AGAIN for the past three/four years DGA finances are CLEAN.

Budget increased for the third year in a row.

Bad example, Rafale developement is FAR more advanced than that of Typhoon.

I said procurement, not development. And this, my friend, you can't deny.

Not assuming, i KNOW what technologies cycles means, they mean results of years of R&D, they mean the difference between pantium II and Pantium III, they mean an increase in computing power of <> X 50 etc.

I think that's not a good comparison as in sonar technology we've reached a point where development becomes evolutionary, not revolutionary. And as I said, the 2076 sonar suite is a superb one even apart from the usual MoD/DGA/BmVg-press releases.

Well my brother at SNECMA will be happy to lean how you guys are working...

I'm sure they're working on the sealing problem between blades and housing as well

You keep writing time and again that you expect problems with this programme, WHY???

That has nothing to do with the DGA or French programs specifically, I just reckon that every major defense program suffers from delays and cost overruns. These programs are more and more complex and most companies don't perform complexity management too well. And then come the politicians and mess the whole thing up again. And in the meantime there is a new generation of this and that which you have to build in. And then costs rise. And so on and so on and so on.

What it means is that the UK MoD will have to pay a lot for systems upgrades and that there is NO certainty the combat system and comms are going to be upgraded any time soon.

RN Chief of staff requioers new comm levels like link 22 for example for the simple reason that it is a real pain to planify a combine land strike between SSNs and the rest of a coalition force.

Check the level of comms of Barracuda and see for yourself, it is already SATCOM capable.

So the probability of upgrades vs cost is highwer in the future for the Barracuda simply because Astute cost have risen and its service entry sliped significantly.

Exactly my point. However, when funding is available, it will be done.

I'm making NO assumptions, I only look at facts as they are.

You look at facts of things that aren't in existence yet. And so you're assuming

 

[contedicavour]

Regarding the financial aspect of the Barracuda programme, so far the government has financed a 1st batch of 1 SSN, while leaving options open for a total of 6 ships.
Since it is now sure that a 2nd carrier will be built, it will be very interesting to see the order of priorities in the French Navy's procurement budget between the carrier, the SSNs, the FREMMs (17 in theory...), the last SSBN and the Rafales and NH90s.
I'm sceptical about the possibility of building all 17 FREMM and 6 Barracuda.

cheers

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

Well, now it depends on the policy of our new president ...

 

[contedicavour]

Well, now it depends on the policy of our new president ...

Yes. In theory he is much more favourable to defence spending. However he also wishes to increase several items related to social spending and reduce taxes as well. If you add in the fact that the French economy isn't increasing that fast lately and the fact that most defence programmes go over-budget...

What I would find mostly interesting is the order of priority President Sarkozy (or his defence minister) will create within naval programmes. I would expect the high visibility items such as the new carrier to be top priority (also because of their symbolic value). Lower visibility programmes such as the later batches of FREMM or Barracuda may suffer as a consequence.

cheers

 

[swerve]

Yes. In theory he is much more favourable to defence spending. However he also wishes to increase several items related to social spending and reduce taxes as well. If you add in the fact that the French economy isn't increasing that fast lately and the fact that most defence programmes go over-budget......

cheers

Except that like most EU countries (even including Italy ), the economy & tax revenues have picked up in the last year or so.

 

[contedicavour]

Except that like most EU countries (even including Italy ), the economy & tax revenues have picked up in the last year or so.

Yes luckily enough though there is a long list of priorities to fund before defence programmes... starting with debt reduction btw (especially for Italy).

cheers

 

[Falstaff]

I'd like to get into a few details:

1) What kind of torpedo will the Barracuda use? We've been told it will not be the WASS Black Shark.

2) Will the Barracuda be an all electric boat?

3) Are there any good sources to get to know more about the pump jet propulsion system?

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

1) What kind of torpedo will the Barracuda use? We've been told it will not be the WASS Black Shark.

I have strong reasons to say that it will not be the Black Shark. The new torpedo is not even designed. Remember that the Barracuda is to enter service at best in 2014, so I think that the development of the new HW torpedo is to begin around 2008-2009, undoubtely using improved technologies of the BlackShark.

2) Will the Barracuda be an all electric boat?

I'm not sure, but it will not. The shaft is going to be powered by a steam turbine, similar to that employed in Le Triomphant class.

3) for Pumpjet I duno...

 

[contedicavour]

France would do a good deal to replace F17P torpedoes with Black Shark right now... waiting for 2014 to replace them is a serious handicap.

cheers

 

[Falstaff]

I agree. That would be a further minimum 7 years with an aging torpedo while a co-developed modern one is available.

 

[BKNO]

@DoC_FouALieR

Propulsion will be of the Hybrid type, designed for high "Silent" cruising speeds...


The main mission of Barracuda nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) being subsurface warfare, the design will combine a high 'acorstic speed' with excellent agility and discretion.

http://www.dcn.fr/us/offre/sous-marins/barracuda.html

§ augmentation de la vitesse maximale silencieuse : discrétion acoustique et performances en détection sous la mer supérieures ;

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/marine/b...d_attaque_barracuda/les_plus_du_sna_barracuda


§ la torpille lourde future, de maîtrise d'ouvrage devant être exercée ultérieurement par DSA/SPN (service des programmes navals de la DGA)

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/dga/enje...ous_marin_barracuda/les_sous_marins_barracuda

 

[Falstaff]

Do you know more about that hybrid propulsion?

I speculated on the electric boat configuration as this would explain the Barracuda's compact size. And it definitely is the future of nuclear submarine propulsion layout.

Les progrès principaux porteront sur l'augmentation de la vitesse maximale silencieuse du navire et la réduction des effets du bruit hydrodynamique à haute vitesse afin d'accroître la mobilité tactique et d'adapter les performances du Barracuda à l'évolution des menaces.

Very wise That will be a huge step forward compared to the Rubis...

la torpille lourde remplaçant la F17

Any data available yet?

 

[BKNO]

Falstaff Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 186 Do you know more about that hybrid propulsion?

Both conventional and electric but there are little details other than the goal which is increased "silent" (or stealth as DGA puts it) crusing speed and high level of maneuvrability.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

Concerning that hybrid propulsion, I'll do a little bit of research about it...

Concerning the "future torpille lourde", I will not be surprised if lack of founds cancel that programm for instead buying BlackSharks... As it has already been seen with the ANF "Anti navire futur" Supersonic anti-ship missile.