The new Marlin class submarine

[Falstaff]

Truely hoping that this thread won't have the same fate as all others I started (get closed down) I spent the afternoon gathering information I could find about the new Marlin class submarine on offer for Pakistan.
During the next week it is my goal to do the same for the U-214 class for which I myself have loads of information so we can compare and give an advice.
Comments and additions are welcome. Enjoy!

 

[alexsa]

Truely hoping that this thread won't have the same fate as all others I started (get closed down) I spent the afternoon gathering information I could find about the new Marlin class submarine on offer for Pakistan.
During the next week it is my goal to do the same for the U-214 class for which I myself have loads of information so we can compare and give an advice.
Comments and additions are welcome. Enjoy!

The AIP seems to be a bit of a liability in this case. The need to expell gases will have implications if the sub finds itself in a situation where it has to rely on the system AIP in a tactical situtaion with not much charge in the battery.

 

[pshamim]

According to Der Spiegel, the German newspaper, there is some opposition by the Green Party to the proposed sale of U-214 to Pakistan. Green Party fears that Pakistani Cruise Missile could be nuclear tipped and used by the U-214. No where fears of any technology transfer to China by Pakistan is expressed. However, the prposed sale has the full backing of the German Goverment.

Newspaper states that the sale is not secured yet. French are still fighting and have offered to build hotels and a car plant if Pakistan buys Marlins.

German submarine business with Pakistan wackelt
The planned supply of three submarines at Pakistan becomes in the coming week the budget committee and the foreign committee of the Bundestag employed. With the opposition the business, which wants to cover the Federal Government with a Hermesbürgschaft of over a billion euro, encounters harsche criticism. “It is irresponsible and offends against our armament export lines and the European Union code of practice”, says the green delegate Alexander bonds. Above all the critics fear that the submarines could be armed nuclear. Pakistan possesses self-developed cruise missiles of the type “Babur”, which can carry also atomic Sprengköpfe; the country works on a sea-based version. At present the shipyard group ThyssenKrupp navy of system negotiates with Pakistan about the supply of the three submarines of the type U-214. They are equipped with modern gas cell technology, which makes longer submerged operations possible and which makes submarines more with difficulty locatable. They are to be supplied as “material packages” to Pakistan and assembled there. Although the military of Pakistan prefers the German offer, the business stands on the dump. The reason: For months the French competition with substantial support of the state improves its offer after. Thus the Frenchmen place various civilian projects as return to the purchase of French UBoote in prospect - from the building of several hotels up to the establishment of an autofactory. Already in February president Jacques Chirac in a letter at its colleagues made itself Pervez Musharraf for it strong.

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/vorab/0,1518,479996,00.html

 

[radiosilence]

Neither DCN nor the French government want to upset India which is seen as an important market in the future. India will eye the deal suspiciously, making it unlikely that the Marlin will outperform the Scorpenes bought by India.

Why would the PN be interested in the Marlin if your analyst is correct? It seems they can get the U-214 which is superior to the Scorpene in my opinion. Personally, i would go for the U-214 which is which is an excellent sub.

 

[pshamim]

Why would the PN be interested in the Marlin if your analyst is correct? It seems they can get the U-214 which is superior to the Scorpene. Personally, i would go for the U-214 which is an excellent sub.

For Pakistan the extra incentive is building of all 3 U-214s in Pakistan according to German press

 

[aaaditya]

Why would the PN be interested in the Marlin if your analyst is correct? It seems they can get the U-214 which is superior to the Scorpene in my opinion. Personally, i would go for the U-214 which is which is an excellent sub.

it is not clear that scorpene is inferior to the u214,indian navy evaluated both these submarines thoroughly and rejected the u214 in favor of the scorpene despite having no prior experience with the french submarines.

i guess it is entirely dependent on the training and the operational philosphy of a country what does not suit india may very well suit pakistan.

 

[Falstaff]

Why would the PN be interested in the Marlin if your analyst is correct? It seems they can get the U-214 which is superior to the Scorpene in my opinion. Personally, i would go for the U-214 which is which is an excellent sub.

Well, first of all I wouldn't call it an analysis... I was just trying to see what I can find apart from marketing brochures.

However, despite not being a submarine expert I can say that the U-214:
- definitely has the better AIP-system
- has longer range and endurance
- dives deeper
- has more bow tubes
- is more compact (10-12 m shorter, displacement ca. 150 (surfaced) to 250 tons (submerged) less)
- needs less crew (27 vs. 31)
- benefits from experience of the 50 years world market leader in SSK construction
- has an impressive future development perspective (e.g. IDAS, Muraena)
- has German engineering stamped on it (sorry, couldn't resist that one)

The Scorpene/ Marlin:
- is probably cheaper
- comes with better offsets
- is strongly supported by the French govt.
- has stronger main propulsion
- is slightly faster
- carries more weapons (18 vs. 16)
- probably benefits from the French SSN program

I guess (and it's nothing more) that both designs are state of the art with their torpedoes and combat management systems and other electronic systems.
In one of the articles I listed in the "sources"-section they say Pakistan has described their future sub very detailed, it seems the Marlin was designed in answer to that description.

i guess it is entirely dependent on the training and the operational philosphy of a country what does not suit india may very well suit pakistan.

Very well said! It would be interesting to know how the decision was made in India. AFAIK they are satisfied with their U-209 class boats.

BTW I forgot to mention one important source, it's naval-technology.com

 

[pshamim]

Thanks. One other question. Which one is more capable of launching a cruise missile?

 

[Falstaff]

Thanks. One other question. Which one is more capable of launching a cruise missile?

Difficult question. Both are equipped with 21in (533mm) bow tubes which are sufficient to launch Tomahawk cruise missiles. If it's true that the Barbur missile is a reverse engineered Tomahawk, well both might launch it.
I don't know if special capabilities have to be added to the combat management system if you want to launch them.

 

[KGB]

Would the operating costs be significantly different? If training is supremely important would it be fair to say that a less capable sub with an experienced crew would be better than a more advanced sub with a crew with less experience? The russian SSNs that don't patrol come into mind

 

[Falstaff]

I guess that because of the required infrastructure and safety precautions when handling hydrogen the U-214 might be more complicated and expensiv to operate. This could partially be balanced by the smaller required crew size.

 

[Waylander]

One plus is that France can offer Naval Scalp and MM39 Exocets together with their subs while countries buying from germany have to rely on other suppliers for AShMs and land attack missiles (But as said IDAS is an interesting system).

What kind of torpedos are normally used by the french subs? NTL-90? Or is this lightweight torpedo not intended for the use on subs? Seems a little bit small for me. Or are they still using L5s?

How does it compares to the relatively new and capable DM2A4 "Seehecht"?

I also would think that maintenance is more an issue than crew for huge countries like India and Pakistan.

 

[radiosilence]

One plus is that France can offer Naval Scalp and MM39 Exocets together with their subs while countries buying from germany have to rely on other suppliers for AShMs and land attack missiles .

I am not sure the naval Scalp missile is being offered, seems like speculation at this time. The PN will use Harpoon for AShM.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, if they want to use Harpoons than no advantage for the french subs in this case.

 

[umair]

SCALP being on offer has a very high probability of being true. It was posted on pakdef by a member whose sources have a proven reliability track record.
P.S The mods would'nt like a repeat of the U-214 thread here. Thankyou

 

[ahussains]

Admin Edit: Right. This is NOT a thread about Pakistan.

 

[falconlover81]

Pakistan to buy 3 U-214 Submarines from Germany

Trust me guys but this is what I read in the newspapers yesterday.Those who live in Pakistan will be familiar with the name "Jang".In Quetta edition of the newspaper there was a small heading at the top which read "Pakistan Germany mein bani U-214 model ki teen abdozein kharede gaa",which roughly translates into something like this"Pakistan will buy 3 U-214 model submarines from Germany".In this news it also states that the German government is ready to go ahead with the deal but the commities regarding defence sales and foreign affairs have opposed this sale.They have also shown the same apprehension that Pakistan might use these submarines to fire nuclear tipped Baburs.Hope someone could clear this one for me

 

[Rich]

Hope someone could clear this one for me

http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/india/index.html

India's ambitions for a sea-based nuclear deterrent were acknowledged in 1998. After executing a number of nuclear tests, the government declared that its future minimum nuclear deterrent (MND) would be based on a triad: a combination of airborne, naval, and land-based platforms. The recently released maritime doctrine clarifies this still further, calling specifically for the establishment of a submarine-based MND.[5,6]

I dont know what the German Govt. is thinking, tho I can guess. Its clear that region is going to end up with sea based/submarine nuclear triads, the first will probably be the INs design. http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/india/index.html Which will be an intolerable threat to """ " """" and which will force a deterrent response.

At this point in time it appears the slow pace of the Chinese SLBM program has created a slower "ripple effect" in the sea based triad programs of the other players in the region.

This of course could change quickly.

The PLAN gets a capable SLBM force deployed, and, better mobile/solid fueled/Mirv'ed ICBMs, will force India to do the same, will force """ " """" to do the same. They will have no other choice.

The nuclear clock is still moving forward.

The Germans already sold Israel submarines they knew were going to be used as sea based nuclear deterrents so how can they say "no" to another important allies request? My guess is they will sell them the boats and then slip and slide when they are armed with "special" SLCMs like they did with Israel.

 

[ahussains]

Are these Marlins are capable of SLBM
What is the Basic Diffrence of Marlin . U214 , Scorpion , Agusta 90 B

 

[Todjaeger]

Are these Marlins are capable of SLBM
What is the Basic Diffrence of Marlin . U214 , Scorpion , Agusta 90 B

As I understand it, no. SLBM (IIRC) stands for Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile... At present the only operators of such subs to my knowledge is the US, UK, France, Russia and China (PRC). SLCM which is much more common stands for Submarine Launched Cruise Missile. As for the differences between the Marlin, U-214, Scorpene (sp?) and Agusta, I leave to others more knowledgable than myself.

-Cheers