Swedish Submarines

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contedicavour

New Member
I remember a time when Canada was considering buying a class of 12 SSNs... I'm talking about the end of the '80s, early '90s. Now they're left with 3 operational Upholders (the 4th is still under repair AFAIK) which means leaving the Pacific without subs.
With the 4 Tribal-TRUMP destroyers going obsolete (early '70s build) and no replacement in sight, the Tory government has a lot of work ahead... and building the huge new AORs is only the start of a long path towards the rebuilding of the Canadian navy.

cheers
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
the Canada navy is in a sorry site [it never was the most important member of the forces] but the navy has also had a little funding crisis when their ships were tied up for a short time in 2007. the Halifax class have also started to feel the arctic weather. the major problem with the CAN NAVY is that the politicians try to have 100% Canadian design and built which inevitably raise costs.
CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/01/17/navy-tieup.html

HMCS Halifax should be on a sovereignty patrol off the East Coast, but the ship is tied up because the Canadian navy doesn't have the money to send it on the 35-day mission.

"The reason HMCS Halifax's patrol is delayed is because we have started a financial review," Lieut. Marie-Claude Gagné, a navy spokeswoman, told CBC News.

All but two ships on the East and West Coasts are tied up. HMCS Ottawa is in the Persian Gulf, and Gagné said HMCS Charlottetown is out performing sea trials.

"If you're asking who else is out on the Atlantic coast, the answer is no one," she said.

Senator Colin Kenny wonders why Canada has a navy if there's no money for the ships to patrol the coast.

"It's not a good thing to run out of money," said Kenny, chair of the Senate's security and defence committee. "I think it's because of the extra costs with oil and the demands of Afghanistan."

The Defence Department will spend almost $1.5 billion on the mission in Afghanistan this fiscal year. But at the same time, the money the navy has to send ships to sea has been cut by about 10 per cent.

"It's obvious they don't have money for fuel or personnel," said Nova Scotia MP Peter Stoffer.

Stoffer called it "very disappointing" that the navy ships are tied up, and said Canadians should be alarmed.

"Not having these ships patrol leaves a big hole in our security," he said. "You can have illegal immigrants, drug traffickers, people who want to do us harm or harm our neighbours.

"The Americans have consistently accused Canada of having leaky security measures, and this will just prove to them that we are not even patrolling our own coasts for security measures."

Sources tell CBC News that the navy's financial woes will continue until the end of March, and that all patrols will be cancelled until then.
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
Re: gf0012-aust

Re: gf0012-aust

Well, the first Collins may have been a lemon. But one must not forget that Kockums and Sweden has designed and produced over 30 different kind of submarines over 100 years, so there is a LOT of experience. I have never heard or read that any other of those 30 subs would have had any faults or fiascos during those +100 years (besides the Collins...)
Why is that?


Do you really mean the Visby-stealth corvette? I have never heard that australian companies have had had any work on her and I´m absolutely shure that none of the Visby-corvettes have ever been in USA. Are you not confusing her her with a norwegian vessel (that has been in USA for tests)?


If not, show me any evidence (link) of a Visby-corvette in USA...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: gf0012-aust

Well, the first Collins may have been a lemon. But one must not forget that Kockums and Sweden has designed and produced over 30 different kind of submarines over 100 years, so there is a LOT of experience. I have never heard or read that any other of those 30 subs would have had any faults or fiascos during those +100 years (besides the Collins...)
Why is that?
Read my responses. They tried to develop an upsized gotland - you can't just upsize any design without seriously looking at it carefully. They didn't. If it wasn't for 3rd party australian companies, and eventually the assistance of the USN - we would have been buggered.

btw, we have also been involved in fixing up some of the existing swedish boat owners - funnily enough they didn't go to the swedes, and we don't let them near our technology.


Do you really mean the Visby-stealth corvette? I have never heard that australian companies have had had any work on her and I´m absolutely shure that none of the Visby-corvettes have ever been in USA. Are you not confusing her her with a norwegian vessel (that has been in USA for tests)?


If not, show me any evidence (link) of a Visby-corvette in USA...
I have a contract between my former company, Kockums and NAVSEA asking for assistance to apply our tech to Visby for US trials. If you have the requisite clearances and a Govt email address, then we'll take the next step.


You do realise that I worked on that project?
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
Re: gf0012-aust

Re: gf0012-aust


You wrote : The same australian company also was responsible for going in and fixing up the acoustic anomalies of the Visby when she did her US tour.


I ask you. When was HMS Visby in USA for trials? When have HMS Visby ever left swedish waters?

When it comes to the Collins sub I kinda of believe you (in sweden, the story is that the main difficulties was caused by the fact that uneduacated aussie docksmen would assemble the ships due to the fact that the aussie dock-union was so strong, despite swedish subbuilders saying no-no) But let´s not get into that, your story seems somehowe true.


Still:

I ask you. When was HMS Visby in USA for trials? When have HMS Visby ever left swedish waters?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: gf0012-aust


You wrote : The same australian company also was responsible for going in and fixing up the acoustic anomalies of the Visby when she did her US tour.


I ask you. When was HMS Visby in USA for trials? When have HMS Visby ever left swedish waters?
read my comments before carefully. the bottom line is that I have a credentials document that we supply to clients detailing who and where we have worked before with this tech.

it doesn't matter what anyone else in the internet world says - ;)

When it comes to the Collins sub I kinda of believe you (in sweden, the story is that the main difficulties was caused by the fact that uneduacated aussie docksmen would assemble the ships due to the fact that the aussie dock-union was so strong, despite swedish subbuilders saying no-no) But let´s not get into that, your story seems somehowe true.
yes, part of that is undoubtedly true - but its why ASCE was set up - and why they did most of the construction work. There are two companies involved with Collins. Most people (99%) only know of ASC

as I have said before, the elements of blame can be attributed a number of ways, Kockums is not divorced from that circle of blame as their core design was initially flawed. If people build to a bad design, then it doesn't result in a better boat - its still a stuffed boat. The reality also is that the swedes built the nose section of Number 1 - and the welds were so bad that there was serious consideration given to scrapping it. The boat was regarded as a potential death ship as any explosion to the front could have compromised the hull.


Still:

I ask you. When was HMS Visby in USA for trials? When have HMS Visby ever left swedish waters?
see above. the request was to fix acoustic anomalies in the hull prior to being assessed for US trials. we had signature technicians in sweden.

Don't get me wrong, the Collins turned out a superb boat in the end - but it was due to 3rd party australian companies and finally USN assistance that delivered that capability.

It craps me off no end to see people praise Kockums for the Collins design when all the fixes have been either Australian or American.

You do realise that Kockums never ever ran a tank test on the hull?
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
How can I reply to that? You say "it is all classified" and I say no swedish Visby-corvette has ever been in USA- is anyone have been, please shove me some evidence. You had´nt, so you are talking [Admin Text deleted].


Speaking of HMS Gotland submarine, this is from NBC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khaa3y0i87s
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
1) Learn some manners.

2) It's pretty apparent that I know about the project - because I worked on it - you either accept that or you don't. Frankly I don't care as its apparent that you are clueless about the project and the problems encountered.

3) NBC is the source of chest thumping justification? LOL. Whatever makes you feel good.

4) If you can't understand anything I've said then so be it.

5) make the effort to read what I've said properly.


Its apparent that you are one of the googling "proof is life" advocates. I guess that sums up your own competency and capability. If you actually don't understand anything I have said, and believe that all technical wonders are on the internet - then you are without doubt a bit of a dill.

eg. There are two Prescott Reports - the public paper and a classified Nat Security version - because the Classified Doc is on a 30 year rule is it a fake document because you can't see it on the internet? Gee, welcome to the real world sport. Ditto for credentialed documents. Do you understand what credentialed documents are? I think not.

Grow up a little or learn to accept that there are people who actually do have a better idea of what happened in these projects - esp when they worked on them.

Patriotism is fine - but when it colours your judgement and capacity to engage in meaningful debate it just makes you look like a fan clubber rather than a serious participant.

How can I reply to that? You say "it is all classified" and I say no swedish Visby-corvette has ever been in USA- is anyone have been, please shove me some evidence. You had´nt, so you are talking [Admin Text deleted].


Speaking of HMS Gotland submarine, this is from NBC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khaa3y0i87s
 
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SATAN

New Member
Is Sweden developing a new generation of Submarines or are these (GOTLANDS )the last of their kind? It would be a pity to think that the maker of such fine subs suddenly stops producing these fine machines.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Is Sweden developing a new generation of Submarines or are these (GOTLANDS )the last of their kind? It would be a pity to think that the maker of such fine subs suddenly stops producing these fine machines.
They're no longer in business. They've been bought out.
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
1) Learn some manners.

2) It's pretty apparent that I know about the project - because I worked on it - you either accept that or you don't. Frankly I don't care as its apparent that you are clueless about the project and the problems encountered.

3) NBC is the source of chest thumping justification? LOL. Whatever makes you feel good.

4) If you can't understand anything I've said then so be it.

5) make the effort to read what I've said properly.


Its apparent that you are one of the googling "proof is life" advocates. I guess that sums up your own competency and capability. If you actually don't understand anything I have said, and believe that all technical wonders are on the internet - then you are without doubt a bit of a dill.

eg. There are two Prescott Reports - the public paper and a classified Nat Security version - because the Classified Doc is on a 30 year rule is it a fake document because you can't see it on the internet? Gee, welcome to the real world sport. Ditto for credentialed documents. Do you understand what credentialed documents are? I think not.

Grow up a little or learn to accept that there are people who actually do have a better idea of what happened in these projects - esp when they worked on them.

Patriotism is fine - but when it colours your judgement and capacity to engage in meaningful debate it just makes you look like a fan clubber rather than a serious participant.
I´m sorry I dont speak as good english as you do. That does´nt change the facts. You have to provide some more evidence then the "I know the english language better than you, therefor I am right"




I´m just saying that I have never heard of any Visby-corvette ever been to USA. And before I do, I consider your statement bull....

I have read your posts, and you claim that: "The same australian company also was responsible for going in and fixing up the acoustic anomalies of the Visby when she did her US tour.
The thing is, AFAIK HMS Visby has NEVER done a "US tour". Can you explaine that?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I´m just saying that I have never heard of any Visby-corvette ever been to USA. And before I do, I consider your statement bull....

I have read your posts, and you claim that: "The same australian company also was responsible for going in and fixing up the acoustic anomalies of the Visby when she did her US tour.
The thing is, AFAIK HMS Visby has NEVER done a "US tour". Can you explaine that?
I don't care about the quality of your english, I care about your attitude and the fact that you're accusing me of lying.

1) But, as of now, quite frankly its irrelevant to me whether you believe me or not.

2) I worked on the Collins Projects - I do happen to know about the build issues - and apparently far better than you.

3) As I have repeatedly said I have a credentialed document asking us to assess noise and vibration anomalies on the Visbys as they were slated for a US tour. That was a precursor to the decision for the US to abandon european low signature designs, DERA's trimaran and develop the LCS.

If you don't like it tough. Accuse me of lying and I'll not take it kindly. I'm probably old enough to be your father - and I won't take ill mannered crap from anyone - I don't care how hurt your national pride is. I'm also not in the habit of making statements that aren't truthful.

Its really easy, we make Governments as well as private companies sign NDA's before we release credntialed documents - the fact that I have to explain this to you does little to impress me that you actually do understand the process.

To be blunt, either accept it or bugger off. I've got no time for kids or hurt patriots. get over it.

The Visbys sang like a harp at certain speeds - everyone involved in the program knows this. and everyone involved knows that it was a specific speed and sea state that caused it. There werer only two technologies available to resolve it, one was French, and the other Australian. We use the same solution on other swedish subs bought by allies.
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
I don't care about the quality of your english, I care about your attitude and the fact that you're accusing me of lying.

1) But, as of now, quite frankly its irrelevant to me whether you believe me or not.

2) I worked on the Collins Projects - I do happen to know about the build issues - and apparently far better than you.

3) As I have repeatedly said I have a credentialed document asking us to assess noise and vibration anomalies on the Visbys as they were slated for a US tour. That was a precursor to the decision for the US to abandon european low signature designs, DERA's trimaran and develop the LCS.

If you don't like it tough. Accuse me of lying and I'll not take it kindly. I'm probably old enough to be your father - and I won't take ill mannered crap from anyone - I don't care how hurt your national pride is. I'm also not in the habit of making statements that aren't truthful.

Its really easy, we make Governments as well as private companies sign NDA's before we release credntialed documents - the fact that I have to explain this to you does little to impress me that you actually do understand the process.

To be blunt, either accept it or bugger off. I've got no time for kids or hurt patriots. get over it.

The Visbys sang like a harp at certain speeds - everyone involved in the program knows this. and everyone involved knows that it was a specific speed and sea state that caused it. There werer only two technologies available to resolve it, one was French, and the other Australian. We use the same solution on other swedish subs bought by allies.
My "attitude" beacause I´m certian that none of the Visby-corvettes have ever been outside Sweden. I´ve asked all of the engaged crew and I´m just lacking the answers from a few. None of them have said she has ever been in USA.

When it comes to the Collins, I said before and I say it again, I kind of believe you (Idont know whom to believe)

But when it comes to Visby....
you say "either accept it or bugger off" , I wont bugger off. Cause until you present some profe I will bugger YOU off.


(and I´m pretty shure you have confused the HMS Visby with the norwegian project,)
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
And now I now the fact (I have talked to the guys manning the Visby)

HMS Visby and none of her sisters have never ever left swedish waters and have offcourse never been too USA. This story is totally manufactured by gf0012-aust, I don´t know why.

If you have a doubt, just send an e-mail to any swedish newspaper, Kockums, or the Defence department and ask for the truth....
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Perhaps my interjection will be unwelcome...

And now I now the fact (I have talked to the guys manning the Visby)

HMS Visby and none of her sisters have never ever left swedish waters and have offcourse never been too USA. This story is totally manufactured by gf0012-aust, I don´t know why.

If you have a doubt, just send an e-mail to any swedish newspaper, Kockums, or the Defence department and ask for the truth....
I'd strongly recommend re-reading GF's posts regarding acoustic sig management work for the Visby corvette.

GF said in Post #17
The same australian company also was responsible for going in and fixing up the acoustic anomalies of the Visby when she did her US tour.
It was then asked by Maskirovka in Post #41
Do you really mean the Visby-stealth corvette? I have never heard that australian companies have had had any work on her and I´m absolutely shure that none of the Visby-corvettes have ever been in USA. Are you not confusing her her with a norwegian vessel (that has been in USA for tests)?

If not, show me any evidence (link) of a Visby-corvette in USA...
Post #43
I ask you. When was HMS Visby in USA for trials? When have HMS Visby ever left swedish waters?
And Post #45
How can I reply to that? You say "it is all classified" and I say no swedish Visby-corvette has ever been in USA- is anyone have been, please shove me some evidence. You had´nt, so you are talking [Admin Text deleted].
GF has responded in Post #42
I have a contract between my former company, Kockums and NAVSEA asking for assistance to apply our tech to Visby for US trials. If you have the requisite clearances and a Govt email address, then we'll take the next step.
Post #44
the request was to fix acoustic anomalies in the hull prior to being assessed for US trials. we had signature technicians in sweden.
And Post #51
3) As I have repeatedly said I have a credentialed document asking us to assess noise and vibration anomalies on the Visbys as they were slated for a US tour. That was a precursor to the decision for the US to abandon european low signature designs, DERA's trimaran and develop the LCS.

AND...

The Visbys sang like a harp at certain speeds - everyone involved in the program knows this. and everyone involved knows that it was a specific speed and sea state that caused it. There werer only two technologies available to resolve it, one was French, and the other Australian. We use the same solution on other swedish subs bought by allies.
Reading through carefully, one will see that the Visby was a possible contender for a USN project, but was discarded in favor of what became the LCS. There was no mention of a Visby actually being sent to the US. Instead (see Post #44) signature techs were sent to Sweden.

I would strongly urge people read through posts thoroughly, otherwise they will miss things.

On a side note, GF, you said in Post #36 about a possible combined build with Canada
it would have made sense to have a combined build, but at the time what was proposed for collins was pretty left of field. not many wanted to touch it.
Can you elaborate about what was proposed that was "left of field" for the Collins?

-Cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
What chances are there that the successor to the Viking programme, still theoretically existing for the Swedish and Singapore navies, will indeed be rolled out ?
I would also believe that the Gotlands will be the last entirely Swedish developed SSKs, also because the Norwegians and Danish are not interested anymore, but I'd like to read more opinions about this.

cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I'd strongly recommend re-reading GF's posts regarding acoustic sig management work for the Visby corvette.
...

There was no mention of a Visby actually being sent to the US. Instead (see Post #44) signature techs were sent to Sweden.

I would strongly urge people read through posts thoroughly, otherwise they will miss things....

-Cheers
Err - I think you missed this ;)

The same australian company also was responsible for going in and fixing up the acoustic anomalies of the Visby when she did her US tour.
So Maskirovka has a point. GF did say it, & has neither retracted it nor backed it up (not even said "the tour did happen"). He's written about acoustic signature management work by Australians who went to Sweden, which Maskirovka seems to have accepted was done, but he hasn't, at any point, despite repeated requests, answered the question of whether Visby actually visited the USA, rather than some work being done before a tour which may have been (& it seems likely it was) cancelled before it began.
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
Just an FYI,

gf0012-aust is away overseas and cannot access DefenceTalk from his location. He will reply to the comments as soon as he is able to.

Thanks and enjoy!
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

I wonder how important is it to be right about the Visby being in the US? Doesn't impact the rest of what gf had said in any case.

For me, the issue is a non-starter. No weapon is 100% perfect. Every piece of equipment has its flaws. Its excellent (and much appreciated by myself) for gf to share some of the stuff he mentioned.

If anyone can't accept posts as fact, they are always welcomed to accept it, whether right or wrong, as merely a differing opinion :)

I suspect the ship that gf referred to was the HMS Smyge, the test platform for the Visby rather than the actual Visby class corvettes (although gf may maintain it was the HMS Visby which he is more than capable of identifying). The top Swedish navy officials themselves acknowledged "they made mistakes and found problems" at least on the testbed. The issues were rectified for the actual corvettes.

http://www.koms.se/ul_pdf/102_Navy_2000_page_1.pdf

The above link has very good descriptions of the Visby class corvettes.

Noted also that the USN did lease the Norwegian sjkold prototype as well during the '01 period. If they did it for the sjkold, its not outside the realm of possibility that they did it for the visby/smyge as well.

http://www.knmskjold.org/english/index.html

It appears to be consistent with what was said by gf. I would suggest to everyone to give the issue a rest.

If one really wants to know, can always email for confirmation:
http://www.navy.mil/contacts.asp ; or
[email protected] ; or
[email protected]
 
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