F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped
- Thread starter LancerMc
- Start date
i thought it was because those countries involved get to muscle in on the manufacturing and help to sustain employment in the respective homelands........it doesnt necesarily follow that the f35 is better....
in the case of the uk,which is the only tier one partner it is being purchased because its suitable for carrier ops and it needs to replace the harrier with a stovl aircraft.the f35 is the only one available dont forget.
it will complement the typhoon and be primarily utilised in the ground attack role with the much more capable typhoon handling air superiority.
dont forget though that the f35 has a long way to go to operational service and nobody has actually'ordered' it yet,just placed some memoradums of understandings.
the f35 has some major battles ahead before it wins all of its 'customers'over.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
And praytell, if the F-35 is the expensive lemon that you and BKNO THINK it is, what should RAAF DO to enhance its air combat capability?
Afterall, criticism's easy. Constructing a next generation air combat force is not, I daresay, ALL that easy...
Please enlighten us with your obvious knowledge and experience of this very task.
I'm RAAF would appreciate all the help they can get.
I thought this was a very good post rjmaz1, with some very good points. I thought that your comparison between the needs and desires of the USAF and the RAAF was a good one.
Cheers
This is crazed nonsense from Phil K.
JSF is not late the first Block III squadron with full weapons suite will be in service come 2015. The Super Hornet buy is more to do with covering the F-111 and F/A-18A/Bs from 2010 to 2015 than the anything to do with the F-35 and the cost of the Super Hornet has been fully supplemented by the Government from the cash surplus so will not effect any other area of the Defence budget unless we decide to keep them in service beyond 2020. In fact the Super Hornets will be coming with a huge new arsenal of weapons that could be used by other platforms, especially the F-35, and a new regional support centre that will be used to maintain other systems including Army helos and RAAF transport aircraft, not to mention Pacific/Indian based US aircraft.
Well WTF are you talking about? Do you suggest we abandon our air combat capability like NZ and buy more ASLAVs and LHDs with the F-35 money? Or do we go back in time to the failed fleet management strategy of just keeping systems in service for as long as possible? The very strategy that has forced us to buy the F/A-18F Block IIs to sustain our air combat force and forced us to rely on an early buy of F-35s with all the hoopla associated with that.
thats an oversimplification of the reason for purchase - esp as the history of the CVF has been somewhat erratic. The fleet air arm component is only a fraction of the buy up for the UK.
No oversimplification here, originaly the JASF was an Anglo-American programme designed to replace the Harriers in UK and US service..
Inform yourself, same as above plus the well know (to us European) Joint Harrier Force conceipt dear to the Brits since the Falksland war...
>>>>>
You're welcome to substanciate your claim, it's a world FIRST as far are news are concerned and could perhaps be true for a 15 year period since JAST requierements NOT since F-35 was officially launched.
PLUS: I doubt very much that Jane's latest edition of World's aircrafts overseens this one, in fact the whole politico-industrial history of the aircraft is well known and all avionics and systems updated.
Their datas are still to be challenged you are all invited to prove them wrong too, for the time being pleasant or not, my point sticks.
Now question: When was the last time the US designed, developed and produces ANYTHING in schedule and on budget???
Appart for the stealth features you can have a long, hard and good look you wont find anything that the US i produccing today that the EUs will not be able to field tomorow or already has.
The point being that without the F-22 performances these "couple of technologies" are more or less useless, expecially as they are not fully applied to F-35 in the case of L.O.
In MANY areas Europe is even well AHEAD of the USA namely; Optronics, DRM AAMs, IR seekers, IR reduction measures (engines), GaN, part of F-35 avionics and systems are even designed by European companies...
Ex; EOTS is absolutly nothing to rev about for example, being mono-channel is loses part of the Sniper's capabilties and is VWC limited, this mean that you can FORGET about using it simultaneously in A2G (MAIN role of F-35) and A2A or in bad weather.
>>>>>
FACTS: Thing certanily known to have occured or be true. The OXFORD D...
Facts are as i posted and you dont like them apparently, now, making staments about people without ever coming up with any proper source/evidence or information to sustain your claims is a little bit pulled by the hairs.
All i have done is to post an information which proves one thing:
F-35 avionics and systems are NOT of a newer generation that even a F2 or T2 for that matter, the F3 and T5 are at the same stage of developement and the following upgrades still in the R&D labs.
As for F-22 its avionics is following a steady update/upgrade path for some of it at least and some of the systems equiping it could even find their way in F-35, NOT the other way around...
Like it or NOT this is FACTS and reality and most of F-35 systems are already flight-tested as we speak including the radar.
This mean that anything else released for service around 2010/2012 is going to be of a newer technology generation and it goes for every aircraft.
A technology generation cycle in this field is about 5/6 years...
Let me guess: In our part of the world we develop harware WITHOUT actually (RE)WRITING THE SOFTWARE specifically for it and even if developed 5/10 years later it IS still older than that of 2000's developed systems???
DHO!! I should have thought of it before trying to inform your lot because as a result you risk asphyxiation from hiding your head in ther sand.
For your info, software comes in sub-standards; even after the initial service entry dates, sometime even writen or "Cleaned" by squadron specialists, i should know i saw my collegues do it for RADAR standards updates.
If no one needs the best A2A aircraft in the world then, i wonder why there is a slight interest from Australia or Japan and Israel for it???
Reality: If Australia could procure the Raptor, and it might well turn up that it will in the future, all plans to procure F-35 would be forgoten hastly and happyly. With the event of the enhanced capabilties Ultra Hornet it becomes more of a possibility even so now the answer is NO.
BTW, Boeing doesn't THINK that IRST and DRM AAMs are so useless...
Much of the focus is on air-to-ground operations, but the Super Hornet is to get an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor to increase air-to-air capability.
Development of the IRST is funded beginning in FY2008, leading to fielding in 2012-13, says Mathews. A targeting, not imaging sensor, the IRST will be integrated with the radar to provide spectral diversity and the ability to engage passively air-to-air. Although it could be mounted internally, a podded sensor is more likely, he says.
DATE:13/03/07
SOURCE:Flight International
Ultra Hornet
Curious that another one of my points is validated by official sources no??
>>>>>
What i call the commercial weight of the US but if WE are fully aware in the EUs some are still living in the previous deceny.
You meant the only one politically acceptable, you wouldn't see the UK purchasing a Su or Rafale even it it was proven that it was better.
European views here, experessed without fuss.
Quote: jaffo4011 dont forget though that the f35 has a long way to go to operational service and nobody has actually'ordered' it yet,just placed some memoradums of understandings.
Another good point, no one actually purchased the aircraft still we read that it is better than another one because it sells, just imagine if everyone is actually producing bits of it an nobody buying it......
I'd be worried about the European reaction to US "Tecnologic Supremacy" if i was a L-M sellman because there is a HUGE amount of technology in the move which is actually designed to counter L.O threats...
This was my point and if some guys prefer to burry their heads in the sand rather than adress the subject so be it.
Eurofighter might be like L-M, making loads of noises but when they state that they offer 90% of F-22 capabilties even the US dont dare saying otherwise.
You can forget about this %age with F-35, as simple as that...
Not saying it IS a lemon, it's probabilly vcery capable in A2G since it have been designed for the role, just NOT as A2A capable as a 4.5 gen fighter comes 2015 and even NOW in terms of performances.
My solution, loobying DoD/US Senat for a couple F/A-18 E/F/G/F-22.
You are among their best allies and they already have second thoughts.
are you being deliberately ignorant of warnings about manners?
have a look at the ratio of STOL to CTOL aircraft that the UK are buying. You can think about for 3 days while you cool off and learn some manners.
its quite a large fraction though and will have huge importance to britain in its force projection overseas.
i actually firmly believe that the f35 is going to be a fantastic aircraft and will complement the typhoon perfectly with a huge jump in performance over the harrier gr7 & 9.the sooner it enters service the better.
my comments were in relation to 'nationalistic'cries of my plane is better than yours when not backed up with substance or facts.(an ongoing problem on these pages).
lets keep it real folks,after all we all love aircraft with a passion and thats why we come here.....:vamp
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Mod edit: "And around and around we go"...
Ladies and Gentleman. The F/A-18E/F, F-22 and F-35 threads are going to be rested for several weeks. They are simply nothing around in circles and achieving nothing. The SAME arguments and opinions are being repeated over and over again.
This is the decision of the mods AND Webmaster. Please respect it and do not open new threads nor continue these discussions "off topic" in other threads.
The situation will be reviewed in several weeks.
Regards
AD.
Ladies and Gentleman. The F/A-18E/F, F-22 and F-35 threads are going to be rested for several weeks. They are simply nothing around in circles and achieving nothing. The SAME arguments and opinions are being repeated over and over again.
This is the decision of the mods AND Webmaster. Please respect it and do not open new threads nor continue these discussions "off topic" in other threads.
The situation will be reviewed in several weeks.
Regards
AD.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Mod edit: "And around and around we go"...
Ladies and Gentleman. The F/A-18E/F, F-22 and F-35 threads are going to be rested for several weeks. They are simply nothing around in circles and achieving nothing. The SAME arguments and opinions are being repeated over and over again.
This is the decision of the mods AND Webmaster. Please respect it and do not open new threads nor continue these discussions "off topic" in other threads.
The situation will be reviewed in several weeks.
Regards
AD.
Ladies and Gentleman. The F/A-18E/F, F-22 and F-35 threads are going to be rested for several weeks. They are simply nothing around in circles and achieving nothing. The SAME arguments and opinions are being repeated over and over again.
This is the decision of the mods AND Webmaster. Please respect it and do not open new threads nor continue these discussions "off topic" in other threads.
The situation will be reviewed in several weeks.
Regards
AD.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Mod edit: "And around and around we go"...
Ladies and Gentleman. The F/A-18E/F, F-22 and F-35 threads are going to be rested for several weeks. They are simply nothing around in circles and achieving nothing. The SAME arguments and opinions are being repeated over and over again.
This is the decision of the mods AND Webmaster. Please respect it and do not open new threads nor continue these discussions "off topic" in other threads.
The situation will be reviewed in several weeks.
Regards
AD.
Ladies and Gentleman. The F/A-18E/F, F-22 and F-35 threads are going to be rested for several weeks. They are simply nothing around in circles and achieving nothing. The SAME arguments and opinions are being repeated over and over again.
This is the decision of the mods AND Webmaster. Please respect it and do not open new threads nor continue these discussions "off topic" in other threads.
The situation will be reviewed in several weeks.
Regards
AD.
radiosilence
jints
Sell Raptors to Japan?
Another article speculating on the possible sale of raptor to Japan and other first-tier allies. The Pro sale lobby is picking up, looks like Japan could be the first export customer of Raptor after 2011.
p.s. Mods feel free to delete my post if it doesn't fit the discussion of this thread.
http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/stories/2007/05/11/0512bizlockheed.html
Another article speculating on the possible sale of raptor to Japan and other first-tier allies. The Pro sale lobby is picking up, looks like Japan could be the first export customer of Raptor after 2011.
p.s. Mods feel free to delete my post if it doesn't fit the discussion of this thread.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Mods i'm guessing these threads are open???? I'll play nice
This is a very interesting development. A point of interest may be the way he refered to the export ban:
The mood does seem to be changing in the US. Export does make sense economically and shouldn't threaten the F35 sales, considering the small number of nations that would be eligable. I dont see any reason to not to export the platform to the nations outlined, especially with any technologicaly sensitive bits removed. You would have to assume the export version would be less capable though.
The 4th squadron for the RAAF may indeed be equiped with the best air dominacnce/presission strike platform on the plannet. Radio you have kept my hopes alive.
This is a very interesting development. A point of interest may be the way he refered to the export ban:
There doesent seem to be any apparant justification on a total ban on exports, especially with the dramatic change in the geo-stratgic environment and the need to work in coalitions with the nations outlined.
The mood does seem to be changing in the US. Export does make sense economically and shouldn't threaten the F35 sales, considering the small number of nations that would be eligable. I dont see any reason to not to export the platform to the nations outlined, especially with any technologicaly sensitive bits removed. You would have to assume the export version would be less capable though.
The 4th squadron for the RAAF may indeed be equiped with the best air dominacnce/presission strike platform on the plannet. Radio you have kept my hopes alive.
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Very interesting indeed (BTW I'm also posting on the basis that this thread seems to be open again!).Mods i'm guessing these threads are open???? I'll play nice
This is a very interesting development. A point of interest may be the way he refered to the export ban:
The mood does seem to be changing in the US. Export does make sense economically and shouldn't threaten the F35 sales, considering the small number of nations that would be eligable. I dont see any reason to not to export the platform to the nations outlined, especially with any technologicaly sensitive bits removed. You would have to assume the export version would be less capable though.
The 4th squadron for the RAAF may indeed be equiped with the best air dominacnce/presission strike platform on the plannet. Radio you have kept my hopes alive.
It will be interesting to see whether the Opposition Labor Party will make a formal request for the Raptor if they win government. My understanding is that they have indicated that they now support the FA-18F purchase (even though their defence spokesman was reported to have attacked the decision in The Australian newspaper on 10 May!) and are not necessarily opposed to the F-35A but just want to look at alternatives. So maybe it is possible that the RAAF could end up with 3 squadrons of F-35s and 1 of an export F-22 in place of the FA-18Fs (alternatively a mix of SHs and export Raptors). The idea of three types (SH, Raptor and JSF) seems unlikely as it would create logistical and support difficulties.
The RAAF has consistently stated that its preferred NACC solution is 4 squadrons of F-35s. If funding and availability were not problems I wonder whether the air force's preference would change to include some Raptors alongside the JSF (or the SH)?
Cheers
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
This article and the others, are based on the statements from one guy, Thompson, from one think tank.
Now take a look at these statements:
Designing an export version of Lockheed Martin Corp.'s (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research radar-evading F-22 Raptor could cost more than $1 billion and be "prohibitively expensive" for any would-be foreign buyer, said Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency.
"If (export) were to be considered, which it's not, it essentially would have to be redesigned, rebuilt, retested and then go into production," Kohler, who oversees government-to-government arms sales, told Reuters in a brief interview.
[...]
"This airplane was built to give us an edge way into the future, and that's why it's not exportable."
[...]
Kohler told Reuters the U.S. intent was to supply Lockheed Martin's next-generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, due to be available for export in about 2015.
U.S. arms-sale chief discounts F-22 sale to Japan
Hey! Thompson is even in this article:
Loren Thompson, an analyst close to the Pentagon and to military contractors, discounted Kohler's comments as having been overtaken by senior Air Force officials' latest thinking.
"Strategic reasons for sharing the plane are becoming compelling," including cruise missile defense, said Thompson, of the Arlington, Virginia-based Lexington Institute, a research firm.
Another motivating factor, he said, is a belief that Japan may be willing to fund development of a new version that would be more of a bomber.
Outside of his own beliefs, there are no statements to support that the F-22A or variants will be expeorted to Japan.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Of course not. Mr Thompson is from a group with an undeclared agenda in this matter. The Joint Chief of Staffs Peter PACE echoed Mr Kohler's comments the day before this article. Must some "other" senior officers that have a different view...
nfloorl:
Those comments certainly suggest that an export F-22 is unlikely to say the least! The F-22A is already regarded as prohibitively expensive by the RAAF but it seems that an export version will be even more so.
Cheers
radiosilence
jints
It seems like these Think thank people/Pro sale lobby are testing the waters to see if they would encounter any resistance from the military or other influencial quarters about possibly exporting Raptor a few first-tier allies.