F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

dave_kiwi

New Member
Verified Defense Pro

Grand Danois

Entertainer
F-22 trolling time:)

From today's Sydney Morning Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/japan-applies-to-buy-fighter-australia-rejects/2007/04/29/1177787974628.html

Seems Japan has approached the USA re F-22s

Quote:The United States has responded favourably to Japanese requests to buy the potent F-22 Raptor fighter jet, undermining claims by the Minister for Defence, Brendan Nelson, that the aircraft was not available for foreign sale.
Yes, indeed.

This is the quote that is interpreted as a favourable reponse to the approach:

Before a visit to Washington this week by the Japanese Prime Minister, Shinzo Abe, a senior US official said the White House was "positively disposed" towards selling the F-22 to Tokyo.

"We're happy to discuss supplying the next-generation fighters to Japan," said Dennis Wilder, the senior director of East Asian affairs at the US National Security Council.


I saw another quote recently with similar content, but using the term 'fifth-generation fighters' on this subject. Can't remember where.

The common theme is that the Raptor is not being mentioned. In this piece he (DW) slides off obliquely from the Raptor on to the 'Fifth-generation' and 'next generation fighter' terms, which seems to the official line in use from the US administration.

They cover both the F-22A and the F-35 and is (currently) the operational phrase used by the US.

To paraphrase what DW is saying:

"We will not dismiss the Japanese request publically, but we would like to provide a fifth-generation fighter to Japan."

A clever rethorical trick.

It seems it is a gentle way and less controversial way of saying no to the Japanese Raptor approach. No loss of face to the Japanese in this kind of reply.

How the SMH arrives at the 'Raptor conclusion' is on their account. But it does provide a platform for attacking the Aust DefMin if the SMH interpretation is accepted at face value.


[Edit:] Here is the defencetalk article with an interview with the very same person, Dennis Wilder. Provides interesting context to how SMH lays out what he said.


US eyes advanced fighters for Japan
Reuters | Apr 26, 2007

WASHINGTON: The United States would welcome talks on supplying next-generation fighter aircraft to Japan, a U.S. official said Wednesday, before a meeting this week between President Bush and Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

"China is modernizing at a rapid pace, its air force," said Dennis Wilder, senior director for East Asian Affairs on the White House National Security Council staff, replying to a question about Japan's reported interest in Lockheed Martin Corp.'s F-22 "Raptor" fighter jet.

"The Japanese obviously feel some threat in relation to North Korea and its development of missile and nuclear capabilities," Wilder added at a briefing on Abe's visit.

"And so we are very positively disposed to talking to the Japanese about future-generation fighter aircraft," he said.

"Whether it's going to be one model or another of aircraft is an open question at this point."

[...]

Link

Well done, SMH. That "positively disposed" bite was "positively massaged."
 
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BKNO

Banned Member
I DONT know WHY the US wouldn't sell F-22 to Australia, what i do NKOW is that F-35 is only part of the USAF Hi-Lo couple as the Lo bit of it.

Since F/A-18s are capable platform in A2A i dont think that the option of purchasing F-22 will be scraped in Australia, particularly if it is made available to Japan at a later date.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
I DONT know WHY the US wouldn't sell F-22 to Australia, what i do NKOW is that F-35 is only part of the USAF Hi-Lo couple as the Lo bit of it.

Since F/A-18s are capable platform in A2A i dont think that the option of purchasing F-22 will be scraped in Australia, particularly if it is made available to Japan at a later date.

The question is "if". Raptor production run will soon be over, if the USAF isn't able to acquire additional airframes over the 189 or so currently approved. The other option is that the US administration makes a quick decision, which looks a little bit unlikely to happen for now. Another question is in which form the Raptor would be selled. I'm pretty sure any export customer will only get a sriped down version, which might be even more expensive. This raises the question how useful such a down graded Raptor would be and with that price tag it's unlikely to be produced in greater numbers, so that the costs won't go down at all.
 

BKNO

Banned Member
Scorpion82 I'm pretty sure any export customer will only get a sriped down version, which might be even more expensive.
With avionics and systems ONLY equivalent ot that of F-35 it still will be a HUGE gain...

Scorpion82 This raises the question how useful such a down graded Raptor would be and with that price tag it's unlikely to be produced in greater numbers, so that the costs won't go down at all.
Raptor is a much more capable platform in A2A than F-35 will ever be; for a start its flight envelop was conceived from design stage to take full advantage of ALL aspects of stealth, among which high cruising speed.
 
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AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I DONT know WHY the US wouldn't sell F-22 to Australia, what i do NKOW is that F-35 is only part of the USAF Hi-Lo couple as the Lo bit of it.
That's just agitprop (agitation-propaganda). The high-low mix thing whent out the door a long time ago and is sustained by the F-35's enemies. The F-35 is designed to do every mission the F-22 can do. In some cases you will need two F-35s for every F-22 because it can't cover as much aerospace per aircraft nor carry as many ATA weapons (yet).

The funny thing about this high-low agitprop is it comes from the original high-low mix of F-15 and F-16. But in the many engagements this mix has had such as the IDF-AF over Lebanon in ‘82, ODS, Iraq No-Fly, Serbia No-Fly, Kosovo, OIF, etc the F-16s have been doing as much if not more ATA killing as the F-16s…

Is the F-16 a turkey just because at conception it was the low end? Does the F-16 need F-15s around to survive? Of course not, but never let reality get in the way of a good smear campaign.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
With avionics and systems ONLY equivalent ot that of F-35 it still will be a HUGE gain...

Raptor is a much more capable platform in A2A than F-35 will ever be; for a start its flight envelop was conceived from design stage to take full advantage of ALL aspects of stealth, among which high cruising speed.
I hope you didn't get me wrong. Even a down striped Raptor would be effective, but is it worth the cost. I think the main down striping could include reduced stealth and some degraded avionics. BTW the F-35's avionics will be even more advanced and comprehensive than that of the F-22, but designed for better multirole purposes. Of course some limitations are set due to size and costs.

@AGRA,
valid point, but one has to see the conditions and the differences between the F-15/F-16 combo and the F-22/F-35 combo. Though the F-16 has evolved into a truely capable strike fighter it was designed as a light fighter. The F-35 on the other side was designed as a multirole fighter with emphasis placed on its AG capabilities. The performance difference between F-22 and F-35 is therefore significantly greater than it was between F-15 and F-16.
 

BKNO

Banned Member
AGRA That's just agitprop (agitation-propaganda). The high-low mix thing whent out the door a long time ago and is sustained by the F-35's enemies.
Really so according to YOU F-35 is as capable than F-22 in A2A then???

WHO is venting HOT air here???

AGRA The F-35 is designed to do every mission the F-22 can do.
First of all you counterdict the USAF itself, second taking people for a bunch of ineducated schoolgirls. :eek:nfloorl:

The F-22 is as expensive as the JSF will be cheap, and the USAF sees no obligation to take one without the other. In fact, it sees no way to have the JSF without the F-22. At $30 million a copy, the JSF will be an affordable attack aircraft because it does not have to perform the F-22's stealthy air-superiority mission, the service argues. To reduce costs, the JSF will also be heavily reliant on sensor data from external sources, of which the F-22 will form an integral element.
DATE:04/08/99
SOURCE:Flight International
Stealth shackled
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1999/08/04/54593/stealth-shackled.html

Here, inform yourself mate...:)

AGRA The funny thing about this high-low agitprop is it comes from the original high-low mix of F-15 and F-16..
It actually results on the aircrafts own capabilties abnd IS still the same as far as the USAF are concerned.

AGRA Is the F-16 a turkey just because at conception it was the low end? Does the F-16 need F-15s around to survive? Of course not, but never let reality get in the way of a good smear campaign.
It IS NOW. Even the mighty F-15 struggles vs an AdA Mirage 2000-5F as reported to USAFE pilots flying tham as exchange pilots in my old squadron.

From our side of the pound the Mirage won 90% of its engagements vs F-16 for fun only, and the Greeks for examples wouldn't try to pit them together and they use BOTH types for your info. Guess which one is used by their Air Defense squadron???

As for F-16 it got itself properly killed in most engagements vs 4.5 gen aircrafts even the oldest version of them......

I stronlgy suggest that if you have to keep coming up with these, you at least provide us with a proper source so that we can enjoy a proper information. Up to now it's not viable....

Scorpion82 BTW the F-35's avionics will be even more advanced and comprehensive than that of the F-22, but designed for better multirole purposes. Of course some limitations are set due to size and costs.
Not necessarly the case here. Have a look at F-22 early Avionic obscolescence problems and their solutions, same for the 4.5 Gs.

In fact it appears that comes 2015 F-15 will be the one with the oldest avionic set, in the case of some competitors this will includes Defense Suite, Radar, optronics etc.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
With avionics and systems ONLY equivalent ot that of F-35 it still will be a HUGE gain...
It will NOT, because such a thing won't exist. The F-22 is NOT available for export. Even the US Administration is ONLY willing to talk to Japan about a "5th Generation aircraft".

US Congress, Pentagon, the Joint Chief of Staff, Deputy Secretary for Defence England and the State Department have ALL stated recently that's it's NOT for export. The Obey Amendment supports this.

Comparisons of their capability are meaningless in the context of this thread, because Australia couldn't buy F-22 even IF it wanted too, let alone could afford it, etc.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
I think that the F-35s combat performance will be significantly higher than that of teen series fighters due to a significantly more comprehensive and advanced avionics suite. No one should forget about its external payload capabilities either. One has to consider the intended missions and mission profiles. The F-35 will operate stealthy in the first days of a conflict with internal weapons only (2 JDAMs or the like for destroying the target and 2 AMRAAMs for self defence). If air superiority is achieved the Litening II to switches to more flexible payloads including external stores. The aircraft will be able to deploy all the modern weapons or at least similar weapons as other fighters. Its flight performance is not going to be significant, but the F-35 combines a robust performance with full stealth. The F-35s strenght is stealth and avionics.
In terms of flight performance based on fair assumptions and available information I think the F-35 will provide similar climb performance and manoeuvreability as the F-16, superior acceleration and of course range on internal fuel. Ceiling will be similar but speed inferior. The F-35s range performance is impressive, but one has to consider it's a single engined design with about 2 times the internal fuel of a Rafale or Eurofighter and seen in relation it looks not that impressive. In terms of costs the F-35 is going to be no low-cost fighter anymore. Total programme costs has risen by 1/3 in recent years, while the total numbers has been reduced. Fly-away cost is already nearing twice that of what was envisaged during the projects early days, very much like with the F-22. And today even LM refueses to guarantee fixed prices for the aircraft. I wouldn't wonder if the F-35 will become a more flexible and advanced, but less capable and powerful fighter with a price not much lower than that of the F-22. Time will tell...
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Really so according to YOU F-35 is as capable than F-22 in A2A then???

WHO is venting HOT air here???

First of all you counterdict the USAF itself, second taking people for a bunch of ineducated schoolgirls. :eek:nfloorl:
It can undertake the same MISSION. Don't go semantic, ok?

The F-22 is as expensive as the JSF will be cheap, and the USAF sees no obligation to take one without the other. In fact, it sees no way to have the JSF without the F-22. At $30 million a copy, the JSF will be an affordable attack aircraft because it does not have to perform the F-22's stealthy air-superiority mission, the service argues. To reduce costs, the JSF will also be heavily reliant on sensor data from external sources, of which the F-22 will form an integral element.
DATE:04/08/99
SOURCE:Flight International
Stealth shackled
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1999/08/04/54593/stealth-shackled.html

Here, inform yourself mate...:)
Excellent! You had to go 8 years back in order to find a quote that fit your purpose. And then you post it without context. See:

The US Air Force has raised the stakes in its battle with Congress overproduction funding for the advanced air superiority fighter, the Boeing/Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor, by hitching its future fate to that of the Joint Strike Fighter. Without the F-22, USAF says, it would have to rethink its requirement for the multirole JSF, potentially delaying the international, 3,000-aircraft, $150 billion programme while the design is reworked to fulfil some of the F-22's mission.

For the air force and US industry the cancellation of the US-only, 339 aircraft, $60-billion F-22 programme would be devastating. The consequences would reverberate for years, with few parallels other than perhaps the scrapping of Canada's CF-105 Arrow fighter and the UK's TSR2 strike aircraft in the 1950s and 60s.


Not necessarly the case here. Have a look at F-22 early Avionic obscolescence problems and their solutions, same for the 4.5 Gs.
How wonderfully informed of the Raptor, you are. ;)
 
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Scorpion82

New Member
Really so according to YOU F-35 is as capable than F-22 in A2A then???
Please calm a little bit down. There is no reason to become harsh. Maybe you should read a little bit more careful. AGRA didn't suggest the F-35 being as capable as the F-22 in AA, but that it will complement it in its mission as the F-16 did with the F-15.

The F-22 is as expensive as the JSF will be cheap, and the USAF sees no obligation to take one without the other. In fact, it sees no way to have the JSF without the F-22. At $30 million a copy, the JSF will be an affordable attack aircraft because it does not have to perform the F-22's stealthy air-superiority mission, the service argues. To reduce costs, the JSF will also be heavily reliant on sensor data from external sources, of which the F-22 will form an integral element.
DATE:04/08/99
SOURCE:Flight International
Stealth shackled
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1999/08/04/54593/stealth-shackled.html
That source is quite dated and does not reflect the current situtation. In fact one of the reasons why the F-35 costs has risen is, that the aircraft receives a much more complex and comprehensive avionics suite now than it was originally intended. Though this has its draw backs too, as it does not only increase costs, but raises weight due to the additional equipement.

It IS NOW. Even the mighty F-15 struggles vs an AdA Mirage 2000-5F as reported to USAFE pilots flying tham as exchange pilots in my old squadron.

From our side of the pound the Mirage won 90% of its engagements vs F-16 for fun only, and the Greeks for examples wouldn't try to pit them together and they use BOTH types for your info. Guess which one is used by their Air Defense squadron???


As for F-16 it got itself properly killed in most engagements vs 4.5 gen aircrafts even the oldest version of them......
This has nothing to do with the topic it self and I suggest to drop such comparisons here, even if they are correct and fact based. The question was, if the F-16 have done will without the F-15 and if you look at the various conflicts the question is definitely yes. F-16s from all nations have a real world kill record of 80.

Not necessarly the case here. Have a look at F-22 early Avionic obscolescence problems and their solutions, same for the 4.5 Gs..
Though I agree with that statement it changes nothing in terms of the F-35 providing a couple of technologies in its basic configuration, which are not available for Rafale, Eurofighter or Raptor right now and which might not even be available at the time when the F-35 enters service.

In fact it appears that comes 2015 F-15 will be the one with the oldest avionic set, in the case of some competitors this will includes Defense Suite, Radar, optronics etc
Who cares about the F-15, which is and will be the oldest fighter?
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Journey.......

Fly-away cost is already nearing twice that of what was envisaged during the projects early days, very much like with the F-22. And today even LM refueses to guarantee fixed prices for the aircraft. I wouldn't wonder if the F-35 will become a more flexible and advanced, but less capable and powerful fighter with a price not much lower than that of the F-22. Time will tell...
Which is about where this thread started over 620 post ago.

Prediction -

If Australia commits to the JSF as the current Defence plans propose, the average unit procurement cost (the amount to be paid) for a 100 aircraft buy over the period 2014 to 2018 will likely be well over US$110 million per aircraft (not including in-country Australia infrastructure and set up costs).

Not surprisingly, this is close to the advice provided by APA to the JSCFADT inquiry into air superiority in their Submission 20 back in January last year.

The average unit procurement cost for the F-22 over the same period is likely to be around US$116 million per. The probability of the F-22 still being in production during this period is assessed as medium-high.


;)
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
But isn't 116 million USD for F-22A the UFC? So the comparable UPC for the F-22A would be 168 million USD?

And isn't the projected F-35 UFC circa 49 million USD, and UPC circa 69 million USD?
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Driving along looking in the rear vision mirror........

But isn't 116 million USD for F-22A the UFC? So the comparable UPC for the F-22A would be 168 million USD?

And isn't the projected F-35 UFC circa 49 million USD, and UPC circa 69 million USD?
Projected by whom??? Sounds like marketeers speak to me.

The prediction in my previous post is based upon Exhibits P-40 and P-5 figures from US DoD Budget Proposal papers plus an analyses of both programs, including programmatic risk analysis. Predictions are in the future, not the past. The figures you are citing are from the past.

;)
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Projected by whom???

The prediction in my previous post is based upon Exhibits P-40 and P-5 figures from US DoD Budget Proposal papers plus an analyses of both programs, including programmatic risk analysis. Predictions are in the future, not the past. The figures you are citing are from the past.

;)
And the current UFC/UPC figures are?

:)
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If Australia commits to the JSF as the current Defence plans propose, the average unit procurement cost (the amount to be paid) for a 100 aircraft buy over the period 2014 to 2018 will likely be well over US$110 million per aircraft (not including in-country Australia infrastructure and set up costs).
The first operational squadron (~24 units) of RAAF F-35As is planned to be purchased from Low Rate Initial Protection (LRIP) 5 (2013), the other two squadrons (~48) in the Air 6000 Phases 2A/2B will come later, presumably post LRIP in full-rate production. If Australia can negotiate a Multi Year Procurement (MYP) as is the expressed intent then we can hopefully achieve lower cost by averaging.

So it’s not simply a matter of deducing Unit Procurement Cost (UPC) from LRIP and saying that is the average cost of the RAAF per unit buy, the so-called analysis behind Air Power Australia aka Occum. Our actual UPC for F-35 will be on average across the ~72 strong buy much lower. Defence is saying post the latest US DoD number crunching an average Unit Flyaway Cost (UFC) of at the most USD 47 million in base year dollars (2002) that equates to in rough 2015ish then year dollar terms of USD 65 million (using an average 2.5% inflation per annum). UPC is obviously higher.

If we were to acquire the F-22 in the F-35s place we would also have to pay for at least the following to make the capability available and bring it up to the minimum RAAF required multi-role capability:

Cost of US export release >USD 1 billion, according to US Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) with others saying as high as USD 1.8 billion

Cost of providing capability shortfall in maritime strike, stand off strike, EO targeting/recce, >1,000lb effect strike. At least:
Acquisition and Integration of EOTS (>USD 150 million)
Integration of JSOW (>USD 50 million)
Integration of JASSM (>USD 50 million)

So that’s an additional USD 1.25 billion, which averaged across a 72 unit Air 6000 Phase 2A/2B buy would equate to another >USD 17 million – at least! (more likely to be double that) – per UFC/UPC for an Aussie F-22A.

Then of course all of this money would be spent in the US without any defrayal to Australia via Australian industry involvement. Cost of F-35 acquisition is defrayed in overall government terms by the spend in Australia on Australian components for the F-35 program, which are supposedly meant to equal our overall buy. While it may not appear in the Defence end of the ledger things like Australian jobs, taxes to the Commonwealth and the current account deficit are significant elements of overall financial planning. Without these defrayals one needs to factor in far higher cost to the nation for each of the F-22 dollars spent.

Of course UFC/UPC isn’t the only cost of acquisition. For the F-35s Australia has had to pay our 1% stake of the development phases we have been signed up to. Since we have already paid this money it would be included in any total Air 6000 cost if we changed horse to F-22. Though this is only a few hundred million. Plus we need to acquire a sustainment system and pay for ongoing Through Life Support and training costs.

This is the real killer in the raise and sustain costs of the F-22. For which Australia would have to pay 30% of the entire system costs shared with USAF (72 RAAF F-22s and 183 USAF F-22s). Our stake of the current numbers planned for F-35 is only 2% of the entire global raise and sustain system.

The ‘rose glasses’ viewpoint of Air Power Australia (aka Occum) gives the best possible but fanciful interpretation for the F-22 and the worst possible for F-35. No wonder their figures consistently back up their viewpoint? Overall cost to the nation of Australia of acquiring the F-22 over the F-35 will be significantly higher and has been modelled by defence in far higher complexity than the simplistic best case UCP versus worst case UCP offered by APA.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
But isn't 116 million USD for F-22A the UFC? So the comparable UPC for the F-22A would be 168 million USD?

And isn't the projected F-35 UFC circa 49 million USD, and UPC circa 69 million USD?
Yes the full rate production F-35 will still be much cheaper. Alot of people are taking the best case for the F-22 and worst case for the F-35.

If F-22 production continues after the current order additional aircraft will be cheaper. LRIP F-35's will also be more expenisve. Now i wouldn't be surprised if the first F-35's come close to the price of the F-22. Though over the entire purchase the F-35 will be cheaper. Running costs of the F-35 are meant to be a huge improvement so the total lifetime costs of the F-35 may be half that of similar F-22's.

It would be interesting to the the UFC and UPC of the Super Hornets we have ordered. Does anyone know?
 

Jezza

Member
KADENA AIR BASE, Okinawa — U.S. and Japanese jet fighter pilots got a chance to play “good jock, bad jock” in the skies near Okinawa.
For the first time ever, fighter jocks with Japan’s Air Self-Defense Force got to practice air-to-to-air combat last week with American counterparts who were flying stealthy new F-22A Raptors.
In the first mission Friday, the U.S. Air Force was the Blue Team, “basically the good guys,” said Lt. Col. Wade Tolliver, commander of the 27th Fighter Squadron. The unit is on temporary deployment from Langley Air Force Base, Va., with 12 of the radar-deflecting Raptors.
The teams — four JASDF F-15Cs and F-4s and two U.S. F-15Cs and F-22As each — swapped roles in the afternoon.
“The Japanese Air Force has very competent, very capable pilots,” Tolliver said after the exercise.
He said the Japanese pilots were especially eager to get a look at the F-22As, which are on their first deployment outside the United States.
Japan has expressed a keen interest in buying Raptors to replace its aging fleet of F-4EJ and F-15s.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=45491

Found this news today


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