WW II: What if Japan attacked the west coast?

[GermanHerman]

The thread is about what would have happened if they had invaded the USA and I maintain they would have been slaughtered by about 40 million americans that had used weapons since they were children.. The fact is a lot of americans like to fight.

Ah come on... remember a city called warsaw?

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHJDVVpsjFk[/nomedia]

And you believe little deer-hunter-joe gonna go out to this hell storm to fight with his cute little gun? AND win?

Sorry but this is how it ends when civilians grap a gun and try to fight an army... remember this is late 1944 and not 1941.

 

[ltdanjuly10]

You are talking as if USA had already stolen atomic technology from the fleeing european scientists when Japan attacked Pearl Harbour.

1. I meant to convey that the US would have driven Japan back across the sea by 1945 or 1946 due to the immense differences in industrial capacity and population sizes.
2. As for the "stolen atomic technology" If you are referring to the European scientists who fled Nazi oppression and then fought to convince the US Government that the Atom Bomb was not only a viable weapon but also to commit massive resources to it than I would chose a different set of words. It was certainly not stolen.

Then it drove away the biggest white duck called United States of America from the Philippines.
1. Would the Japanese Military have the resources in 1941 to both invade/raid the West Coast of the US and the Philippines. I think they were to busy pissing off the Chinese for the rest of history to commit enough troops and material to both.



This is how Japan alone defeated all the western white ELEPHANTS, who just decided to surrender to a stronger force rather than fighting like RAMBO. Ramboes do not die in the films, but the fun-loving whites die in real life because they cannot fight.

1. I will ignore the racial overtones and presume that by "fun-loving whites" and "western white ELEPHANTS" you mean "Americans". The fact that at the end of WW2 it was US troops occupying Japan should prove foil to you poorly thought out point. As for "surrendering to a stronger force" no western army has ever just surrendered to a stronger force on there homeland in the 20th century other than the French (For various political/cultural reasons). Both Germany and the Soviet Union were nearly destroyed fighting off Invaders a some point in there history. Given Americas history of total war (See American Civil War) I doubt we would surrender our homeland. On the individual scale, there are many cases of American Infantry platoons outnumbered by the Japanese, holding off "banzai charge" after "banzai charge".


So, US cowboys could have done nothing to the Japanese settlers even if they had captured a 100, 000 sq.km of W. Coast land.

1. Yep nothing, well nothing except target the Japanese supply lines, mount 1 or more armored offensives (which the Japanese would have to resort to using artillery in direct fire mode considering how much their AT weapons sucked and how few of them they had) and recapture the west coast within a year. Remember that by 1941 the US had been gearing up for war for 3 years. The US would have the advantages of Internal lines of communication (Supply lines), Superiority in ground armament and the advantage of knowing the terrain.

Please Note: If you took my previous remarks on the repercussions of a Japanese invasion to mean that I would have supported the annihilation of the Japanese people and harsher races laws than you are mistaken. I was merely pointing out that given the culture and political environment of America at the time, mass Japanese atrocity against American civilians would have been all that was needed to justify such measures

 

[ltdanjuly10]

Ah come on... remember a city called warsaw?

Yes I do remember a city call Warsaw, one filled with unarmed civilians and panicked troops under attack by a highly mechanized (for the time) and well equipped army (In other words, the opposite of the Japanese army) I also remember said Army bumbling in to a little town formerly know as Stalingrad. Finding hostile and well armed natives (Whose average training would roughly match that of an hypothetical American partisan) they proceed to be bogged down and defeated when said natives brought in fresh troops.

thank you for jogging my memory

 

[GermanHerman]

Yes I do remember a city call Warsaw, one filled with unarmed civilians and panicked troops under attack by a highly mechanized (for the time) and well equipped army (In other words, the opposite of the Japanese army) I also remember said Army bumbling in to a little town formerly know as Stalingrad. Finding hostile and well armed natives (Whose average training would roughly match that of an hypothetical American partisan) they proceed to be bogged down and defeated when said natives brought in fresh troops.

thank you for jogging my memory

mh... the army which faced the warsaw uprising in 1944 was not the same which died in stalingrad dude... there is a huge difference between the german army of 42 and after 43.

Besides, what you call hostile nativs is what i call soldiers.
What you call unarmed civilians is what i call armed guerillia.

Get your facts straight.

But anyway, what would your guerillia use against heavy artilery? What would you use to destroy tanks? Etc. pp. why is it so hard to accept that every resistance force suffered heavy losses against organized and well equiped armys?

They might play a role in screwing the japanese supply lines but they surley wouldn't "slaughter" the whole japanese army... ?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Someone should consider numbers.

Japan had little ability to move vast quantities of troops over long distances into hostile defended areas.

Malaya - 3 divisions (Imperial guards division came via land route from Thailand so only 2 landed, 5th and 18th).
Philippines - 2 divisions + bde
Dutch east indies - 2? divisions

The above was only achieved without significant opposition (other than the sinking of the Prince of Wales and Repulse) and the element of surprise eg the brits sank the transport landing at kota bahru only after they landed.

The whole Japanese merchant fleet comprised 2300+ vessels. D-Day took 5000 and landed only 160,000.

Army-wise, the Japs were tied down in China (27 divisions) and the only reason why they ended up with that many was a slow growth with LOC from Korea.

To reach the west coast, it would have a LOC of over 10,000 km. Even to take Hawaii (there were 2 divisions 24th and 25th) would have been difficult due to the contested LOC. The army and air force also reinforced pearl harbor after the attack which had the equivalent of the Jap carriers in strength.

Even after the PH attack, the USAAF still had 2000 fighters and near 12000 a/c. The Jap carriers can't go toe to toe with the land based US air force.

In the US, there was already more than 20 divisions forming by 1941 as opposed to 10-20k max landing potential by Japan. Unrealistic. Yamamoto had it right. Take what they could and defend it to the max. Midway was the turning point.

 

[ltdanjuly10]

GermanHerman;200724]mh... the army which faced the warsaw uprising in 1944 was not the same which died in stalingrad dude... there is a huge difference between the german army of 42 and after 43.

Besides, what you call hostile nativs is what i call soldiers.
What you call unarmed civilians is what i call armed guerillia.

Get your facts straight.

But anyway, what would your guerillia use against heavy artilery? What would you use to destroy tanks? Etc. pp. why is it so hard to accept that every resistance force suffered heavy losses against organized and well equiped armys?

They might play a role in screwing the japanese supply lines but they surley wouldn't "slaughter" the whole japanese army... ?[/QUOTE]

1. My Apologies Thought you were talking about the attack on Warsaw in 1939, thus the confusion over unarmed civilians (less famous but there is a great picture from it with a German bomber flying over the city) Although t the Warsaw uprising may just prove interesting. but i'll get back to that. Also in the future I will add a date for locations with multiple battles

2. Hostile Natives referred to the both the Soldiers (many of whom were untrained conscripts with no rifle) and the Civilians/Partisans who were deeply involved in the fight.

3. What would Guerrillas use against heavy artillery? Simple If their close enough to see the artillery piece than they would just shoot the operators, otherwise they just hunker down in one of Americas many fine root cellars/basements because indirect artillery fire is only really effective against troops in the open.

4. What would they have used against tanks? See Field Expedient anti-tank devices. Petrol Bombs, Pole mines, sled bombs, any manner of commercial available explosives.

5. I never had difficulty believing that the resistance would take heavy losses, but historically that doesn't matter, the resistance keeps on fighting until relived by regular forces. The resistance would have a large population base to reinforce from, the Japanese would be stuck SOL on Americas west coast.

6. As for partisans to "slaughter the whole Japanese Army", I do not think anybody has suggested that. However If you consider the valuable contribution they would make by wearing down the Japanese via attrition and by disrupting their supply lines and killing key personnel

As For Warsaw (1944) Thank you this time, perfect example of how with minimal outside support a partisan movement can tie down an enemy for 63 days. Most of the partisans weapons were improvised. The German army had good tanks plentiful automatic weapons, and a knack for street fighting. The Japanese lack all three

 

[GermanHerman]

I was refering to this...

The thread is about what would have happened if they had invaded the USA and I maintain they would have been slaughtered by about 40 million americans that had used weapons since they were children.. The fact is a lot of americans like to fight.

But anyway, I don't think this is a vital point of the whole topic because as already mentioned the japanese simply lacked the ability for a large scale invasion of the US.

But I have to apologize, I might was a little rude.

 

[AMERICANMAN]

You are talking as if USA had already stolen atomic technology from the fleeing european scientists when Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. If it were so that the USA had already built the big bombs at that time, then there would not have been a pearl harbour at all.

About military myth and white supremacy, note that Japan defeated the then strongest white Russian Baltic naval duck in 1905. Japan had single handedly drove away the white humans from the asian lands. Japan single-handedly defeated the British in Hongkong, Singapore, Malay and Burma.

It defeated another white duck called France and drove it away from Indo-China including Vietnam. It drove away another smaller white duck called Netherland from Indonesia. Then it drove away the biggest white duck called United States of America from the Philippines.

This is how Japan alone defeated all the western white ELEPHANTS, who just decided to surrender to a stronger force rather than fighting like RAMBO. Ramboes do not die in the films, but the fun-loving whites die in real life because they cannot fight.

So, US cowboys could have done nothing to the Japanese settlers even if they had captured a 100, 000 sq.km of W. Coast land. Then, of course, after a few years, USA would have annihilated the settlements with atoms. But, that is another topic.

I guess this is the time someone should point out that the Japanese were fighting like cornerd rats when the nuclear weapons were used.

 

[eastwatch]

1. Would the Japanese Military have the resources in 1941 to both invade/raid the West Coast of the US and the Philippines. I think they were to busy pissing off the Chinese for the rest of history to commit enough troops and material to both.

Ans. : Mainland Japan certainly lacked raw materials, but it was an industrial power. Japan had built the best fighter of that time. It was zero fighter. Japan had also built its warships, aircraft carriers, submarines and many other surface ships that were able to supply goods to the war front far away. Japan had built more than 5000 war-related ships in those days. It is not a matter of joke.

All these made USA scary of Japan. USA tried hard to stop the flow of oil and other raw materials from the SE asia in unision with other western ducks. This is why Japan expelled it from the Philippines at gunpoint.
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2. I will ignore the racial overtones and presume that by "fun-loving whites" and "western white ELEPHANTS" you mean "Americans". The fact that at the end of WW2 it was US troops occupying Japan should prove foil to you poorly thought out point.

Ans.: But, the USA had occupied Japan on the strength of its atomic bombing only. US troops were no match for well disciplined KAMIKAZE Japanese troops. Read the history to know how the Japanese military officers frantically tried to destroy the surrender document recorded by the Emperor who declared the war to be ended.
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3) Yep nothing, well nothing except target the Japanese supply lines, mount 1 or more armored offensives (which the Japanese would have to resort to using artillery in direct fire mode considering how much their AT weapons sucked and how few of them they had) and recapture the west coast within a year. Remember that by 1941 the US had been gearing up for war for 3 years. The US would have the advantages of Internal lines of communication (Supply lines), Superiority in ground armament and the advantage of knowing the terrain.

Ans: Once Japan had invaded and captured a part of USA, they would have brought all their resources there. Tanks, artilleries, war planes, name anything, Japan would have assembled in the west coast. Then it would have destroyed all the weapons factories nearby which would have blown the gas out of USA. By this deed alone, USA could have been persuaded not to take part in the european theater.

But, Japan was not ready to take over a chunk of useless US desert in the west coast. Instead, Japan vied tor establish its overlordship in the SE asia, where raw materials and fuel were abundant.

 

[AMERICANMAN]

1. Would the Japanese Military have the resources in 1941 to both invade/raid the West Coast of the US and the Philippines. I think they were to busy pissing off the Chinese for the rest of history to commit enough troops and material to both.

Ans. : Mainland Japan certainly lacked raw materials, but it was an industrial power. Japan had built the best fighter of that time. It was zero fighter. Japan had also built its warships, aircraft carriers, submarines and many other surface ships that were able to supply goods to the war front far away. Japan had built more than 5000 war-related ships in those days. It is not a matter of joke.

All these made USA scary of Japan. USA tried hard to stop the flow of oil and other raw materials from the SE asia in unision with other western ducks. This is why Japan expelled it from the Philippines at gunpoint.
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2. I will ignore the racial overtones and presume that by "fun-loving whites" and "western white ELEPHANTS" you mean "Americans". The fact that at the end of WW2 it was US troops occupying Japan should prove foil to you poorly thought out point.

Ans.: But, the USA had occupied Japan on the strength of its atomic bombing only. US troops were no match for well disciplined KAMIKAZE Japanese troops. Read the history to know how the Japanese military officers frantically tried to destroy the surrender document recorded by the Emperor who declared the war to be ended.
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3) Yep nothing, well nothing except target the Japanese supply lines, mount 1 or more armored offensives (which the Japanese would have to resort to using artillery in direct fire mode considering how much their AT weapons sucked and how few of them they had) and recapture the west coast within a year. Remember that by 1941 the US had been gearing up for war for 3 years. The US would have the advantages of Internal lines of communication (Supply lines), Superiority in ground armament and the advantage of knowing the terrain.

Ans: Once Japan had invaded and captured a part of USA, they would have brought all their resources there. Tanks, artilleries, war planes, name anything, Japan would have assembled in the west coast. Then it would have destroyed all the weapons factories nearby which would have blown the gas out of USA. By this deed alone, USA could have been persuaded not to take part in the european theater.

But, Japan was not ready to take over a chunk of useless US desert in the west coast. Instead, Japan vied tor establish its overlordship in the SE asia, where raw materials and fuel were abundant.

So you are saying that the USA could travel 8000 miles and defeat the Japan, but could not have done it in their own back yard. Think you better think that one over.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

The US stopped short at Okinawa and never invaded mainland Japan (though they did conduct a devastating bombing campaign). It took US 4 years to get to Okinawa.

Olympic, coronet and downfall never materialised though plans were targeted at a Nov 1st, 1945 date. And though feasible, the expectation of losses were significant enough to justify the atom bombs.

Chapter 13: "DOWNFALL"- The Plan for the Invasion of Japan

 

[eastwatch]

So you are saying that the USA could travel 8000 miles and defeat the Japan, but could not have done it in their own back yard. Think you better think that one over.

USA was dishonourably defeated and expelled from the Philippines. It took more than 4 yrs to build up its forces before it planned to attack japan with atom bombs. Without big bombs, USA could not have forced Japan to surrender, or even defeat.

Japan's muscles were much stronger than USA. Had Japan occupied US west coast, it would have then stopped the production of US armours. In such a scenerio, US could not have ventured out of its own land. Rather, it would have been too pre-occupied with the Japanese troops in its west.

The USA could not have sent the bombers to drop the big bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki without first capturing Guam. There were no missiles in those days and US could not fly 12, 000km to drop the bombs. Guam was captured only because Japan did not took over the west coast, making the Pacific an US lake.

Only a strong Japanese presence in the Pacific and west coast would have forced USA to stay within its designated territories.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Um... just wanted to highlight that tank production was focussed at warren township (martin rd) in detroit which is 4000km from the west coast.

 

[AMERICANMAN]

Ah come on... remember a city called warsaw?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHJDVVpsjFk

And you believe little deer-hunter-joe gonna go out to this hell storm to fight with his cute little gun? AND win?

Sorry but this is how it ends when civilians grap a gun and try to fight an army... remember this is late 1944 and not 1941.

People in warsaw with rare exception did not have guns...nor did they know how to use them,,,with americans it would be entirely a differant balll game.

 

[AMERICANMAN]

USA was dishonourably defeated and expelled from the Philippines. It took more than 4 yrs to build up its forces before it planned to attack japan with atom bombs. Without big bombs, USA could not have forced Japan to surrender, or even defeat.

Japan's muscles were much stronger than USA. Had Japan occupied US west coast, it would have then stopped the production of US armours. In such a scenerio, US could not have ventured out of its own land. Rather, it would have been too pre-occupied with the Japanese troops in its west.

The USA could not have sent the bombers to drop the big bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki without first capturing Guam. There were no missiles in those days and US could not fly 12, 000km to drop the bombs. Guam was captured only because Japan did not took over the west coast, making the Pacific an US lake.

Only a strong Japanese presence in the Pacific and west coast would have forced USA to stay within its designated territories.

Priority was being given to the war with Germany, but Japan might have been able to capture the Phillipines any way,, but the war would have been over lot faster if USA had not been at war with Germany.

 

[Kiwikid]

Priority was being given to the war with Germany, but Japan might have been able to capture the Phillipines any way,, but the war would have been over lot faster if USA had not been at war with Germany.

I would suggest that USA might have failed against Japan without learning some important lessons in the war with Germany, in particular learning from the British experience, Gaining bases in Australia and New Zealand for the attack on Guadalcanal and most importantly learning U-boat tactics which did more to cripple Japan's war than any other aspect. Incidentally US subs operated from Fremantle so not co-operating with British Commonwealth forces would have been a disaster for both British and USA.

As for the OP one needs to recall the original context. From Japan's point of view (which I don't agree entirely) Japan felt obliged by an oil embargo and naval blockade from July 1941 to take the next step and sieze South East Asia's oil fields. In that respect it was an act of desperation with dwindling fuel supplies.

The purpose of attacking Pearl Harbour was to prevent the intervention of US Pacific forces in Japan's conquest of these oil fields. Nothing more. Japanese thinking was tactical and not Strategic. Nobody thought beyond the next step.

Yamato correctly predicted the disaster of attacking USA, but even he did not extrapoloate from that the need to ensure destruction of the carrier fleet based at Pearl. Why did Japanese submarines not lie off Pearl and wait for return of the carriers?

Why did the Japanese carrier fleet not next hunt for the US carrier fleet?

Ironically war with USA was not the Japanese objective.

 

[little student]

the r two nations.. they attacked us ( US ) unpredicted and these people were from Asia--- japs and afghan at the time of ww2 USSR was also in stress study why ? and predict china? dear sir post what ever u think or come in ur mind and those perfect people will correct u.

 

[scott_lotus]

Japanese light tanks and tankettes would be facing far more advanced American tanks.
Their sparse amounts of artillery would be facing large numbers of superior American guns. During WW2 the only military things the Japanese made well were naval vessels and binoculars.

As for Americas proud history of fire arms and militias
Historically you should no underestimate partisans like the British who were kicked out of the new world by large numbers of poorly trained but well armed fighters (with good marksmanship and guerrilla tactics) and had to return with the largest invasion fleet in the history of the world (at that time) only to once again be disappointed and defeated by Americas "minutemen" (with help from the french). By 1940, Americans were well armed and had been training militias and building defenses. Remember the Japanese never succeeded in china despite the fact that they were facing peasants and poorly equipped rebels. Also While one frightened, overweight sales clerk who shoots a Japanese infantryman in the chest with a shotgun may not seem like anything, when it has the potential to happen millions of times (attrition) it can be a war winner.

Just a quick note , there was a large scale naval battle between the British and French during this era (cant remember the name of it sorry) that is widely thought to be the cause of the British expulsion from "the states". Bearing in mind the British Navy was much more advanced , more professional and better funded than its Army at the time too i.e wasnt won solely by yon minutemen.

Scott

 

[Corsair96]

Has any one but me noticed that the entire freaking Pacific Ocean is in the way of the main Japanese factories and ware houses in the main islands of Japan. To actually make a landing on the main cost of the US, you would need a quick mechanized group that could sustain itself for a long time, a very, very long time. Now combine the facts that the Japanese couldnt have the capability to attack both the Phillipenes and the US mainland, the Phillipene islands and even Australia would be a major thorn in the supply routes across the pacific. They would have to destroy all the allied naval capabilities to make war and to destroy the convoys, plus total air supremecy

 

[scott_lotus]

Has any one but me noticed that the entire freaking Pacific Ocean is in the way of the main Japanese factories and ware houses in the main islands of Japan. To actually make a landing on the main cost of the US, you would need a quick mechanized group that could sustain itself for a long time, a very, very long time. Now combine the facts that the Japanese couldnt have the capability to attack both the Phillipenes and the US mainland, the Phillipene islands and even Australia would be a major thorn in the supply routes across the pacific. They would have to destroy all the allied naval capabilities to make war and to destroy the convoys, plus total air supremecy

Very good point ! to compare, push out from Normandy landings were touch and go due to supply problems and your talking 20 miles over a channel where the mass stock piles existed. Fuel was pump across in a large pipe too , deep water port and ( Cherborg was taken/ functional eventually , (mulburries helped a bit) antwerp was a mess until 1945 i think. Mind you quick advances didn't help ether i guess. Japan didnt have that transport infrastructure, never read any plans that suggested it was a possibility ether (im my limited experience )