Would Science Fiction MECH-Walkers make any sense?

[Waylander]

So we end up with power armor for infantry or nothing.

And I really wanted to freeze myself with 90 years and wake up when Mechs are common.

 

[TrangleC]

I guess we can expect that in 80 years a combination of different robots and space based weapons could have replaced conventional armies as we know them today. Of course only the armies of the nations that can afford the newest technology.
There most likely won't even be any enhanced super soldiers anymore because no matter how much you enhance them, a advanced robot will most likely still do any job better.
OK, maybe 80 years isn't enough time for that, but i think it's clear we are heading towards this direction.

 

[StephenBierce]

This is a full-scale mockup of a Brutishdog from VOTOMS. (No, I don't make up the names.) It was constructed a couple years ago by a fan of the show. Note that it is only a little larger than the iWalk functional robot vehicle prototype from about the same time. The "real-thing" would be powered by an internal-combustion engine mounted in the lower central torso under the crew cockpit. Limbs powered by a combination of electric and hydraulic means. Retractable wheels in the feet for movement on paved surfaces. In addition to a variety of carried gunpods, hardpoints on the waist and back for heavier weapons.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

If this thing gets even a single shot from a RPG, it will fall on the ground...

 

[Waylander]

Nonsense, it's electromagentical shield is going to protect it!

 

[TrangleC]

But you do not always face equal opponents.

Sure, but i think the definition of what is an equal opponent will become harder and harder to make in the future. Just look at the first Afghanistan war where a bunch of primitive desert warriors used a advanced but small and easy deployable weapon like Stinger AA rockets to successfully counter the Sovjet war machine.
Or look at the recent war of Israel against Hizbollah in Lebanon.

I think the use and poliferation of small, advanced weapons that can be used by virtually everyone will have a hughe impact on the battlefield of the future.

Expensive high tech armour suites will most likely just not be a good deal for the high tech army that is buying and deploying them when the enemy can afford several hundred small weapon systems that can kill such a MECH-suit and can be carried around on the back of a man or hidden in a basement, car or hole in the ground, for the same price.

I think that the much as conventional armies profit from technological development, their potential enemies in an asymetric war profit from it even more. Simply because they are more flexible. They don't need a parliament to approve the funding of a new weapon and a hughe military apparatus to first implement everything that is neccessary to use a new weapon and so on. All they need is some money and somebody who sells them the newest stuff.

And as long as "the west" and the USA in particular don't stop to insult the Russians by treating them like morons and building one military base after the other along the russian border and supporting anti-russian politicians in russia's neighbour countries while claiming to be the Russians' best firends, they will see no reason to stop selling their stuff to everybody. Naturally they like to pour some sand into the gear of the neoconservative US world domination plans by selling those simple but effective small weapons to Iran and other people who might use them against the USA.
Who wouldn't do that if in their position?

 

[Wooki]

In many Science Fiction movies, series, books and computer games the armies of the future use some kind of walking MECH-machines instead of conventional vehicles.

Do you think that makes any sense? What advantages could such a design have over a conventional vehicle - besides just looking more cool and futuristic?

Do you think there will ever be such a machine in use?


My personal opinion is "i guess not", because i don't see any real advantages. Even if such a thing wouldn't stumble and fall all the time or at least when somebody shoots at it, still the bad ratio of ground pressure per square centimetre compared to a tracked vehicle would limit the weight and thus the armour drastically. And the legs would be especially vulnerable.

Since modern tank and even ship designs get flater and flater with every generation to make them harder to see and to hit, i guess that trend will continue in the forseeable future.
I would bet the generation of MBTs that will follow the next generation will not even have a real turret and a main gun anymore, but vertical starting tubes for advanced self guiding missles or something like that.

I think you scored it in one (without meaning to) with regard to the advantages of bipedal (or more) locomotion over wheel or track.

That is a biped can get nearly everyplace on terra firma where tracked and wheeled vehicles can't.

Its just making a reliable system that is the problem.

So a walking vehicle makes for a better all terrain vehicle. And that is where the application lies.e.g. Robotic exploration of a volcano, industrial facility, rubble, nuclear accident site, etc, etc.

as far as enhancing bipedal motion, you use ICEs with a regenerative shock absorption system to power each leg and voila you have your infantry man running at 40mph, although he would be 1 foot taller than normal.

cheers

w

 

[Waylander]

But this advantage in rough terrain is negated as soon as it begins to rain or you enter naturally soft ground.

There the high ground pressure of Mechs is going to bite you in the ass.

 

[Wooki]

But this advantage in rough terrain is negated as soon as it begins to rain or you enter naturally soft ground.

There the high ground pressure of Mechs is going to bite you in the ass.

as a tnak, meh..

but as a recon robot (light) no...especially in the terrain I described here you are going to have pipes and things

 

[Waylander]

In the mountain forests of Switzerland they have 4 legged harvesters.

They are slow but with future technologie one might be able to make a good scout/weapons carrier for difficult terrain out of it like in your idea.

 

[Todjaeger]

In the mountain forests of Switzerland they have 4 legged harvesters.

They are slow but with future technologie one might be able to make a good scout/weapons carrier for difficult terrain out of it like in your idea.

Oh, come on, all LoggerMechs can mount are MGs with tinfoil for armour...

Now a Scorpion might be interesting...

-Cheers

 

[Waylander]

With future technologie you might be able to armor at least the important spots against 12.7mm AP.

Than give it some speed and a recoiless 30mm and you might have a lovely weapons carrior for fire support in difficult terrain.

We use Wiesel with 20mm or TOW (There is also a prototype with a recoiless 30mm) for our airborn troops. This vehicle is also not ver good armoured but it works very good for fire support missions.

It is not as if you have to (Or want to ) go head on against heavy mech forces with such a vehicle.

 

[Zzims]

Not to talk of the increased area which you have to cover with armor. Legs, arms, etc all add muich larger areas than a compact tank design.

I also don't think a running mech is a more stable firing platform. Just take a gun and run through the field while trying to aim at something.

Maybe we should go away from big mechs.

If we refer to science fiction like Battletech I could imagine that something like the armored infantry could occur in the future.

With the ongoing development of muscle substitutes and small but powerfull servos together with modern batteries I could imagine that some kind of power armor is designed for infantry to provide it with exceptional protection and the ability to carry heavy weapons.

http://eco.khstu.ru/homepage/WildRatt/BattleTech/pict/armor.gif

Sounds like somekind of Infantry Enhancer.

Enhancing present Infantry capabilities mechanicaly. Sounds pretty darn Possible.

 

[StephenBierce]

The Japanese have already developed power arms for use in the medical profession (for lifting and moving very heavy patients in hospitals). The only "problem" with them so far is that they require external power, and so don't have all that much mobility. A powered infantry armor suit is a real possibility with today's technology...if the power requirement can be met with something hardy enough for battle conditions, and light enough to not force an inflation in overall weight.

 

[shag]

I had come to this thread earlier and had dismissed it as stupid then, I still doubt walkers can replace MSTs or heavy armor. but then I saw this video of India's BSF and how they have to use camels in thar desert areas that have this super soft sand areas. This is not like the saharan desert or afghanistan where the ground is more or less good enough for vehicles. In fact the sand in thar is so so soft that even some tracked vehicles get bogged down and it is basically impractical to use wheeled vehicles to conduct patrols here, hence the use of camels by BSF. So maybe if they can work on energy efficiency(fuel consumption) of walkers I think they can find use for walkers in this area, since walkers would be less likely to be bogged down in soft sand and could function as a light recon vehicle as a replacement for the humble camel. of course it would obviously have endurance and speed advantage over the camel too. Only thing is they will have to be reliable because camels dont break down, and that is helpful in the desert when you are alone

 

[Kilo 2-3]

I had come to this thread earlier and had dismissed it as stupid then, I still doubt walkers can replace tanks or heavily armored vehicles. but then I saw this video of India's BSF and how they have to use camels in thar desert areas that have this super soft sand areas. This is not like the saharan desert or afghanistan where the ground is more or less good enough for vehicles. In fact the sand in thar is so so soft that even some tracked vehicles get bogged down and it is basically impractical to use wheeled vehicles to conduct patrols here, hence the use of camels by BSF. So maybe if they can work on energy efficiency(fuel consumption) of walkers I think they can find use for walkers in this area, since walkers would be less likely to be bogged down in soft sand and could function as a light recon vehicle as a replacement for the humble camel. of course it would obviously have endurance and speed advantage over the camel too. Only thing is they will have to be reliable because camels dont break down, and that is helpful in the desert when you are alone

Having actually ridden camels in a Saharan desert environment, I'll pitch my two cents in.

Camels have a host of advantages over any potential walker technology.

Firstly, they're simple. A camel has no metal parts, requires no gas, oil, spares, or preventative maintenance. Outside of water, forage, and very basic veterinary care, camels require no major attention, and that's a tremendous plus when you consider the massive complexities of walker technology (computer, complex joints and limbs, fuel, etc.).

Secondly, they're easy to ride. At eight years old I was able to ride a camel alone with just a few minutes of practice. No way you could teach an eight-year old or even an adult to ride an wannabe AT-AT that quickly.

Thirdly, they're cheaper. A procurement officer can go to a livestock market anywhere in Africa or the Middle East and buy a dozen camels for a wad of dollar bills. A first-generation walker could cost up to a million dollars, possibly more when you consider the cost of repairs and crew training. The kinds of military and paramilitary forces with the need for desert walkers are also the kinds who can't afford them.

As for the speed and endurance advantage. Camels can walk all day in extreme heat or in near-sandstorm conditions, provided they have a few hours of time to forage and rest at night and the chance for a large drink every 3-4 days. That's very impressive endurance for an animal, indeed it's so good the endurance of the rider, not the mount, becomes the issue.

As for speed. Have you every seen a camel race? Racing camels can reach burst speeds of 25-40 miles per over mile-long courses. That's pretty impressive, and even though it's not sustainable, it could have some use in in tactical situations.

And camels do travel at a pretty decent walking pace and can eat up a surprising number of miles in a day of long riding.

That's not to say camels are the only solution to long-range desert work (see the LRDG and the SAS in North Africa), but they are one of the most proven and successful approaches.

As for me, I'd use a mixed force of locals on camels, UAVs, helicopter air patrols, and special forces teams on ATVs, jeeps, foot, and camelback to do my desert patrol work.

 

[Thiel]

Having actually ridden camels in a Saharan desert environment, I'll pitch my two cents in.

Camels have a host of advantages over any potential walker technology.

Firstly, they're simple. A camel has no metal parts, requires no gas, oil, spares, or preventative maintenance. Outside of water, forage, and very basic veterinary care, camels require no major attention, and that's a tremendous plus when you consider the massive complexities of walker technology (computer, complex joints and limbs, fuel, etc.).

Secondly, they're easy to ride. At eight years old I was able to ride a camel alone with just a few minutes of practice. No way you could teach an eight-year old or even an adult to ride an wannabe AT-AT that quickly.

Thirdly, they're cheaper. A procurement officer can go to a livestock market anywhere in Africa or the Middle East and buy a dozen camels for a wad of dollar bills. A first-generation walker could cost up to a million dollars, possibly more when you consider the cost of repairs and crew training. The kinds of military and paramilitary forces with the need for desert walkers are also the kinds who can't afford them.

As for the speed and endurance advantage. Camels can walk all day in extreme heat or in near-sandstorm conditions, provided they have a few hours of time to forage and rest at night and the chance for a large drink every 3-4 days. That's very impressive endurance for an animal, indeed it's so good the endurance of the rider, not the mount, becomes the issue.

As for speed. Have you every seen a camel race? Racing camels can reach burst speeds of 25-40 miles per over mile-long courses. That's pretty impressive, and even though it's not sustainable, it could have some use in in tactical situations.

And camels do travel at a pretty decent walking pace and can eat up a surprising number of miles in a day of long riding.

That's not to say camels are the only solution to long-range desert work (see the LRDG and the SAS in North Africa), but they are one of the most proven and successful approaches.

As for me, I'd use a mixed force of locals on camels, UAVs, helicopter air patrols, and special forces teams on ATVs, jeeps, foot, and camelback to do my desert patrol work.

Another big advantage is that camels doesn't clog up with sand. Vehicles do.

 

[shag]

Another big advantage is that camels doesn't clog up with sand. Vehicles do.

What I was thinking was more of a super lite version of AT-ST rather than a lumbering AT-AT built only for recon with thinner legs and light weight. something which could possibly hop along without falling using dynamic balancing technologies(Dexter Walks) and return a good fuel efficiency and higher range.Its not easy to beat the camel I agree, but I think its possible to get better endurance by having extra external fuel tanks. I dont think it should be made to withstand fire, but it should be made light enough to run around and give good range without having to be fed too often. like a replacement for a bike, rather than a APC but in a desert
Think of a optimised AT-ST without the heavy top and with lighter and thinner legs.

 

[Thiel]

What I was thinking was more of a super lite version of AT-ST rather than a lumbering AT-AT built only for recon with thinner legs and light weight. something which could possibly hop along without falling using dynamic balancing technologies(Dexter Walks) and return a good fuel efficiency and higher range.Its not easy to beat the camel I agree, but I think its possible to get better endurance by having extra external fuel tanks. I dont think it should be made to withstand fire, but it should be made light enough to run around and give good range without having to be fed too often. like a replacement for a bike, rather than a APC but in a desert
Think of a optimised AT-ST without the heavy top and with lighter and thinner legs.

But then you'd be better of building a small tracked vehicle, something in the <5ton range.
It'll be less likely to sink into loose sand, have a significantly lower profile, will be faster on flat terrain, be far easier to operate, be cheaper, be easier to maintain, be a better firing platform (ATGM and machine-guns only), have longer range, have better crew endurance and be able to carry more people and more stuff. A tracked jeep basically.

 

[Kilo 2-3]

But then you'd be better of building a small tracked vehicle, something in the <5ton range.
It'll be less likely to sink into loose sand, have a significantly lower profile, will be faster on flat terrain, be far easier to operate, be cheaper, be easier to maintain, be a better firing platform (ATGM and machine-guns only), have longer range, have better crew endurance and be able to carry more people and more stuff. A tracked jeep basically.

A la the US Army's World War II/Korea-era Weasel tracked carrier or the British Bren/Universal Carrier?