The F-35 with 4 AIM-120 and two AIM-9 and fuel is supposed to have essentially the same has performance of a clean F-16. What is not to like about it's raw performance? Further, LM is already on record saying that mounting 6 AIM-120s internally will not be a problem.
Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards a European solution?
- Thread starter Falstaff
- Start date
- Status
Why didnt i BetYou was spot on wrt DK-Malta; the Swedes had a draw with Portugal. That result is also very nice for Denmark.
From a wider perspective, I do see these discussions as symptomatic for a situation where the role of avionics and signature management is vastly overriding the value of classic virtues like raw performance and agility.
And underway, it's lost that we're talking about different concepts and philosophies...
and to bad the outcome of huge military competetions aint as easy to predict.. -
I couldnt agree more.
and thats why my arguments support Gripen, when it comes to small countries, like ours. its better for limited budgets and conscripts, however i would never support gripen for England,for obvious reasons.
Here is some intresting questions and answers from one of your countrymen.
http://www.andreaskrog.dk/2008/10/nye-jagerfly-gripen-skyder-myter-ned
of course you cant take it 100 perceent serious, but worth reading tho..
Great post.Grand Danois said:
Importance of speed is a no-brainer, but i am a bit puzzled why manufacturers continue to put so much effort in agility.
Could someone explain to me why this is so important today ? (well, i don't doubt the need of making a quick U-turn and run! but otherwise ?)
DAS is a nifty thing tho, i suspect its true value lies in when you perform a deep strike sneak attack in enemy controlled airspace without AWAC support, and fly with emission off, to avoid detection.
But still want to detect and avoid enemy cap.
Am i right ?
Thanks for the pics btw.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Raw performance is good. However it's also a matter of when you don't get enough return on an increased investment in raw performance. If the cost becomes 2-3 times more per airframe like the F-22A, but when you can still build a very capable jet with f-16/F-18 performance coupled with very advanced avionics, sig mgmt and agile missiles, then high altitude supercruise comes at a high monetary cost.
I spotted it a couple a days ago, though the site fouls up my browser. Well, SAAB has a jet to sell, so that's pretty fair, I guess. They also want credit for their product.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Yes, but if you spot your enemy first, it'll mostly be you who has the choice to commit to or deny combat. You also have the opportunity to maneuver for advantage, making sure that it's the strengths and tactics of your jet that dominate the fight.
Meaning that a less maneuverable jet with superior SA can dominate the more maneuverable jet, even in a gun fight, because there is a fair chance that it'll have the initiative.
All theoretical. Air shows are, of course, the real thing.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Judging from material on how the F-35 could be deployed, it seems plausible.
of course, of course, you always need to use your advantages, if not you're an idiot. to play "fair" in combat is for losers, and losers dies in combat..Yes, but if you spot your enemy first, it'll mostly be you who has the choice to commit to or deny combat. You also have the opportunity to maneuver for advantage, making sure that it's the strengths and tactics of your jet that dominate the fight.
Meaning that a less maneuverable jet with superior SA can dominate the more maneuverable jet, even in a gun fight, because there is a fair chance that it'll have the initiative.
All theoretical. Air shows are, of course, the real thing.
I have been pondering why there is still such an emphasis on agility.
Either aircraft manufacturers do not consider dogfights a thing of the past, -and by extension do not think dodging missiles is a big deal as is the general opinion in this forum.
Or making a 9g aircraft add so little cost that the PR value outweighs the extra cost.
Either aircraft manufacturers do not consider dogfights a thing of the past, -and by extension do not think dodging missiles is a big deal as is the general opinion in this forum.
Or making a 9g aircraft add so little cost that the PR value outweighs the extra cost.
Let me ask you this. what is the comprimises done by the manufactors for making them 9Gs platforms?
Control sufaces and their hydralic engines etc will have to be larger and stronger.
This increases weight and cost, and decreases speed and range, in addition to presenting a larger RCS.
A more concrete example is F-22, because exessive stress/drag on its tail section, causing the tail to fall apart, F-22 is now prohibited from flying faster then M1.7. - A poor top speed for any warplane, but especially for a fighter.
A smaller tail would be stronger, but decrease agility, but so far, no re-design has been made AFAIK.
This increases weight and cost, and decreases speed and range, in addition to presenting a larger RCS.
A more concrete example is F-22, because exessive stress/drag on its tail section, causing the tail to fall apart, F-22 is now prohibited from flying faster then M1.7. - A poor top speed for any warplane, but especially for a fighter.
A smaller tail would be stronger, but decrease agility, but so far, no re-design has been made AFAIK.
Last edited:
Would you care to document that claim? I am sure 60 minutes and the NY Times would love to hear all about it.
No redesign has been made because there is no issue with the tail.
In regard to what? What would you like me to back up with facts? Your post is ambiguous.
I dont agree that they have done so many comprimises jsut to increase the agility.
I agree with you. They have not. I suspect it's something someone read in Wikipedia that was sourced from one of the Eurofighter propaganda web pages. That said I would not be surprised if the the Raptor's top speed is limited to something below it's true top speed in non emergency peace time situations as is most combat aircraft.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Even if the F-22 is limited to M 1.7 it would still be the fastest platform oparational anywhere. What determines speed performance is not what mach number your needle can hit, its a function of distance over time. The F-22 can maintain M1.7 for large periods of time, and in real terms that means that apart from very short sprints the F-22A will be faster (i.e. cover more ground over less time) than even the MiG 25.
But claiming that the F-22A is limited to M1.7 because of the verticle stabilizer design is a big call, and requires some evidence. AFAIk none of the platforms predesessors are speed limited due to stabilizer design.
Here ya go, page 88
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07406sp.pdf
It seem they are working on a solution however, Structural Retrofit Program SRP.
We'll see how it turn out, they are expected to be done around 2010...
ps, agree with Ozzy top speed for your average fighter is only around 10 min.(radius) supercruise can be maintained around 40 min.(radius)
I've been searching for an hour on the imposed speed limit without luck.
I did see Scorpion82 mention it tho, perhaps he can recall where he read it.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07406sp.pdf
It seem they are working on a solution however, Structural Retrofit Program SRP.
We'll see how it turn out, they are expected to be done around 2010...
ps, agree with Ozzy top speed for your average fighter is only around 10 min.(radius) supercruise can be maintained around 40 min.(radius)
I've been searching for an hour on the imposed speed limit without luck.
I did see Scorpion82 mention it tho, perhaps he can recall where he read it.
Scorpion82 said:
Last edited:
Did you read what you cited? There is no prohibition on flight speed due to problems with the tail. The structural improvement program is well known, relatively low cost and it is aimed at ensuring an 8000 hour service life.
Well that does it! Scorpion says so. He must be an expert. It must be true. You can search all day and you will not find anything. There may be an imposed speed limit in peace time but it don;t think it would be readily available and it has nothing to do with compromises in the design due to extreme manueverability.
- Status