What navies still have WWII - era ships?

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orko_8

New Member
swerve said:
The navy still has one Guppy - a museum ship. :D Well, it'll be a museum when they get the funding. Or it'll be scrapped if the navy gets tired of an obsolete, long-retired rustbucket taking up space & the lobbying of the enthusiasts who're keeping it from rusting away entirely ceases to persuade them it's worth hanging on to. And even that isn't one of the WW2-built Guppy conversions, it's a 1950s-built Tang-class, a Guppy new-build. There's a WW2-built Guppy in a private museum, donated by the navy several years ago. The others have all been scrapped, or sold to musems abroad. At least one returned to the USA to become a museum ship, USS Razorback/TCG Muratreis. I think she lasted past 2000 - just.

Turkey has been building German Type 209 subs since the 1970s, IIRC, & is now moving on to newer designs.
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Turkish Navy retired the last two US made submarines, the Tang class, in 2004. One of them, S343 Piri Reis (ex USS SS-563 Tang, ld: '49, l:'51, c/tn: '80) is a museum ship in Izmit, next to TCG D-352 Gayret (ex USS DD-789 Eversole).

TCG S-338 Uluc Ali Reis (Ex USS SS-418 Thornback, ld: '44, l: '44, c/tn: '71, dc/tn: '00) is serving as a museum ship in Istanbul, Rahmi Koc Museum.

The last WWII era submarine of Turkish Navy, TCG S-336 Canakkale (Guppy IIA Balao type, ex USS SS-394 Razorback, ld: '43, l: '44, c/tn: '70) was decommissioned in 2001. She is a museum ship now in North Little Rock, US.

Well, here's the official page -

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/English/AnaSayfa.asp

TF-2000 is the project, but I don't know what's happening on it.
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TF-2000 project which originally covered procurement of 6 modern frigates (2 command&control, 4 AAW) was stalled after 2001 ecomonimc crisis. After the crisis and cancellation or postponement of many projects, as well as the new threat environment after 9/11 and a new defense industry master plan, priority was given to an indigenous corvette design & construction project, namely MilGem (Milli Gemi - National Ship in English).

Current projects of Turkish Navy, which I think deserves own thread, can be listed as: 8+4 corvettes (MilGem), 16 patrol boats, 6 AIP submarines, 10 ATR-72MPA and follow-on order of 17 S-70B-28 SeaHawk helicopters, 6 general purpose helicopters for amphibious forces, 1 LPD, 2 LST and 8 fast LCT's as well as 28 AAV's as first batch, and a C4ISR infrastructure project ("Uzun Ufuk" - Distant Horizon in English) which is about to be finished this year.
 
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Big-E

Banned Member
From my understanding Turkey isn't even going to start TF-2000 until the Milgems are used as a testbed.
 
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orko_8

New Member
Big-E said:
From my understanding Turkey isn't even going to start TF-2000 until the Milgems are used as a testbed.
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Most probably, since by modernization of Gabya class (ex USS FFG-7) frigates and design of MilGem, a considerable infrastructure and experience upon ship management and combat control systems, sensors and design requirements are gained. Most of the sensors, C3 systems and associated subsystems of MilGem are designed and built indigenously. From this perspective, MilGem will symbolize a breakthrough, or in other words, a psychological barrier. If Turkish Navy passes through that barrier, TF-2000 may well start in the same way.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
orko_8 said:
Most probably, since by modernization of Gabya class (ex USS FFG-7) frigates and design of MilGem, a considerable infrastructure and experience upon ship management and combat control systems, sensors and design requirements are gained. Most of the sensors, C3 systems and associated subsystems of MilGem are designed and built indigenously. From this perspective, MilGem will symbolize a breakthrough, or in other words, a psychological barrier. If Turkish Navy passes through that barrier, TF-2000 may well start in the same way.
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Given Turkey's experience with the MEKO design (8 ships of 2 classes) I would have expected Turkey to develop a modified version of the German Type 124 AAW FFG... but that would require the US to export VLS Mk41 for SM2 III, which until now wasn't available because of delicate equilibrium between Greece and Turkey.

cheers
 
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orko_8

New Member
contedicavour said:
Given Turkey's experience with the MEKO design (8 ships of 2 classes) I would have expected Turkey to develop a modified version of the German Type 124 AAW FFG... but that would require the US to export VLS Mk41 for SM2 III, which until now wasn't available because of delicate equilibrium between Greece and Turkey.

cheers
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... and the missile issue is the biggest obstacle in TF-2000 project. SM-2 is not cleared for export to Turkey, Aster family is out of question because of Turkish embargo on French products. In order for Turkey to get SM-2 missiles, the only way is Greek procurement of either SM-2 or Aster systems, it seems.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
orko_8 said:
... and the missile issue is the biggest obstacle in TF-2000 project. SM-2 is not cleared for export to Turkey, Aster family is out of question because of Turkish embargo on French products. In order for Turkey to get SM-2 missiles, the only way is Greek procurement of either SM-2 or Aster systems, it seems.
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Aster is 50% Italian... may be this way your government can order it :D
If Turkey can't get SM2 and doesn't want aster, then they are left with Russian systems or the potential Barak-II (still inferior in range and performance to the European and US competitors)...

cheers
 
B

Big-E

Banned Member
orko_8 said:
Political relations are very bad because of the Armenian issue. French parliament passed a law that gives punishment for those who claim Armenian genocide never happened. Politics.
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So is Turkey embargoing France or is France embargoing Turkey?

I assumed it was the other way around from this statement..."Aster family is out of question because of Turkish embargo on French products"
 
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orko_8

New Member
Big-E said:
So is Turkey embargoing France or is France embargoing Turkey?

I assumed it was the other way around from this statement..."Aster family is out of question because of Turkish embargo on French products"
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Turkey has frozen military relations with France, several high-level visits cancelled, French companies banned from military procurement programmes, etc. So, yes, Turkey is embargoing France.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
orko_8 said:
Turkey has frozen military relations with France, several high-level visits cancelled, French companies banned from military procurement programmes, etc. So, yes, Turkey is embargoing France.
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Hmm politics is getting too much in the way of logical military procurement... if the US limits the equipment it is ready to sell to Turkey, and Turkey stops European procurement because of stalled EU accession negotiations (beyond the French spat) then Israel and Russia must be lurking around Ankara :rolleyes:

cheers
 
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contedicavour

New Member
Big-E said:
Coud we see the PAKFA with a cresent and star?
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If I worked for Sukhoi/Mikoyan or a Russian shipyard I'd be trying the maximum to seize the favorable moment now ... although a straightforward purchase of SU30s or of 22380 corvettes is impossible right now, Russian industry could obtain significant joint ventures with Turkish ones on several local programmes while the Americans and Europeans are waiting at the door...

cheers
 
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orko_8

New Member
It is almost impossible to see a Russian/Chinese made aircraft with a Turkish flag in the foreseeable future. On the other hand there are several ongoing and possible projects in rocket/missile technologies.
 
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